President Trump to issue new guidance asserting students' right to pray in schools

[shmogie]

They are allowed.


Which school?

Since you won't look it up yourself, it is Ketcham high school, NY state.

 

[shmogie]

I'm sure the gun enthusiasts who like to parrot "we don't need more laws! We need to enforce the ones we have!" will pop out of the woodwork any minute now.

So what if we do ? It is absolutely true.

Since you love the sanctuary idea, how about the counties that have become sanctuaries for the Constitution re gun rights, and have nullified state firearms law ?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Since you won't look it up yourself, it is Ketcham high school, NY state.

Do you mean the Ketcham High School where the "OMG! Christian Club" was recently approved?

New York school district reverses decision to reject student's Christian club

 

[tas8831]

The White House said the president will welcome a group of students of Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths ...

I have a hard time believing that.

President Trump to issue new guidance asserting students' right to pray in schools

Students have never lost their right to pray. What was struck down as unconstitutional was the long-standing tactic of administration/teacher lead prayer, a clear act of coercion and an implicit state endorsement of one type of religion.

 

[tas8831]

You think this is a change in behavior?

He is all pandering, all the time - all for his own aggrandizement.
But, he does switch topics now and then.

 

[tas8831]

It always helps to read the article. What you speak of isn't the issue ..

"Grogan pointed to the case of a group of middle school students in Texas who were repeatedly told not to pray in their school cafeteria during lunch break by the school principal, a decision that was later reversed by school district officials, to highlight why the updated guidance is needed."

I do wonder if these students were told to engage in this prayer to test limits, or to provoke a response.

 

[tas8831]

You're basically cursing. Go right ahead. You'll just look like a lunatic.

But isn't it interesting how certain groups' love of constitutional rights seems to depend on whether or not they want to extend those rights to others or to topics that they personally are against.
Many of the same people that are 100% fine with any yahoo carrying an AK on their back in a school, but bristle at the notion of people being allowed to say 'curse words' in public, or to discuss topics they don't like. Just read of a state politician proposing legislation that would ban certain books from libraries and/or jail librarians that allow kids to sign out certain books. Any guess as to their party affiliation?

The US Constitution already protected religious freedom before people decided that separation of church and state somehow meant politicians would burst into flames if they entered a church, or that public school students ought to be completely secularized.

Right, that was totally the rationale.

What it doesn't protect is religious customs that act outside the common law of this land.
I'll give three examples:
1. Sharia law (because it often prescribes jihad, and because it is a religious law that acts outside our law)
2. Widow burning (this is something that used to happen in India, but it's forbidden here)
3. Polygamy (we don't care that Mormons or Muslims want it, it's against the law here)

How familiar are you re: Sharia? Sure, we don't want that horrible Sharia law around here, but what are its tenets? And are non-Muslim religious 'laws' OK? Evangelicals seem pretty OK with the Sharia position on homosexuality, for example.

Prayer should not be forbidden anywhere. Honestly, if you know how to pray silently, nobody can take your right to do so away anyway, but trying to is a gross breach of rights.

Indeed.

So one has to wonder why the religious so frequently misrepresent the issue and then get some spineless politician to offer up some pro-Christian legislation ...

 

[We Never Know]

Then the school was in the wrong. It's already national law that people can use free time to pray.

I agree. It was their lunch, their free time.

 

[We Never Know]

I do wonder if these students were told to engage in this prayer to test limits, or to provoke a response.

I wouldn't think so but I wasn't there so I can't confirm one or the other.

 

[PureX]

It was in the news last week, check it out.

No, a group of students praying is not allowed. Silent, individual prayer is, only because a method of controlling a students thoughts more effectively has not been found.

What possible reason could they have for needed to join together and pray aloud? What could possibly be achieved by this that could not be achieved through an individual praying silently, to his/her God during school, and then going to his/her church to pray in a group, after school? Why is the DISPLAY of prayer in public school so important to Christians?

Once you answer that question HONESTLY, you will understand why it's an affront to the separation of church and state.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The White House said the president will welcome a group of students of Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths to the Oval Office as he issues the updated guidance affirming constitutional protections for expressions of religion in public schools. In taking the action, Grogan said the president will be updating guidance that hasn’t been adapted since 2003.

Grogan pointed to the case of a group of middle school students in Texas who were repeatedly told not to pray in their school cafeteria during lunch break by the school principal, a decision that was later reversed by school district officials, to highlight why the updated guidance is needed.

Speaking at a Miami church in early January, Trump hinted that the action would be made official today -- Jan. 16.
"Very soon, I’ll be taking action to safeguard students and teachers’ First Amendment rights to pray in our schools," Trump said. "They want to take that right along with many other ones."

In addition to the rights of students, Grogan said the administration will take steps to make sure the federal government is being consistent in not discriminating against organizations because of a religious designation, with nine government agencies set to release proposed rules.

In amplifying the president’s message, the Department of Education is set to send a letter to state education secretaries reminding them of students’ protected First Amendment religious rights.

President Trump to issue new guidance asserting students' right to pray in schools

Hallejujah! Good thing I prayed for Trump and both sides of the federal aisles today! Praise Jesus!

 

[dianaiad]

The difference, I think, was the Christians making a display of their prayer, and connecting it to the flag. Clearly the idea was to create an association between "God and country". This seems to be a theme among a lot of Christians, these days. This idea that the nation is predominately Christian. That Christians dominate, here. So they stand up in the middle of public school sporting events to pray aloud, so that everyone else there can see them doing it (and be impressed, or intimidated, I guess). They want to push their religiosity into everyone else's consciousness, and associate it with national unity and control. And it's both offensive to others, as well as promoting an uncivil ideal.

They weren't 'making a display' they went there because they weren't allowed to go anywhere else. The didn't 'connect it to the flag.' They met there because it was a handy marker that everybody knew about, close to the parking lot. Didn't matter if the flag was flying or not.

Don't read into things stuff that simply isn't there.

 

[dianaiad]

Students were never forbidden to pray in school, but they must do it silently.

That's not true. They HAVE been forbidden to pray in school. Many times.

There's an argument I get from people who sue folks putting crosses on their lawns, or refuse to allow religious floats in a Christmas parade; "we aren't trying to keep you from believing in God...just do it quietly and behind closed doors!"

Sorry. the First amendment SPECIFICALLY states that Congress shall make no law prohibiting the FREE EXPRESSION of religion, or of the right of people to peaceably assemble, or the right of free speech.

Now just how far would being told "you can speak freely, as long as you do it privately and behind closed doors where nobody can hear it" get with you? How likely are you to put up with being told that you are only allowed to 'assemble peaceably" if you do it where nobody can see you, behind closed doors, so that the cops can't see or hear it?

The 'freedom of religion' thing is the only right mentioned TWICE in the Bill of Rights....and it comes FIRST.

And what you are suggesting is that kids who 'assemble peaceably" in order to exercise both their freedom of speech AND freedom to express their religious beliefs should be told that they have no right to speak freely OR assemble peaceably OR exercise their religion. that pretty much crosses out everything in the First Amendment. Should they be able to force anybody ELSE to join with them?

No.

but that isn't what any of 'em are doing, is it?

Consider: if you manage to shove all the theists behind closed doors, the way you seem to want, then atheists can be made to keep THEIR opinions regarding deity behind closed doors, as well. I don't know any atheist who would like that much.

 

[PureX]

They weren't 'making a display' they went there because they weren't allowed to go anywhere else.

They were allowed to go anywhere any other students went. And they were allowed to pray anytime they wanted. Just not out loud, en masse. And they were certainly allowed to meet at their church every morning to pray aloud to their heart's content.

The didn't 'connect it to the flag.' They met there because it was a handy marker that everybody knew about, close to the parking lot. Didn't matter if the flag was flying or not.

I could paint crucifixes on the school building wall because I love Jesus and believe I believe I need to have that emblem to pray to, but it's still going to be considered defacement of property by the school board. Praying to/at a flag sends a distinct message that is antithetical to the separation of church and state ideal that schools in particular have to be mindful of. Why they did it isn't relevant. It's still going to be considered offensive, and an affront to the Constitution and the non-Christian members of the community. Just as my reasons for painting the crucifix on school property won't stop it from being a crime.

 

[shmogie]

What possible reason could they have for needed to join together and pray aloud? What could possibly be achieved by this that could not be achieved through an individual praying silently, to his/her God during school, and then going to his/her church to pray in a group, after school? Why is the DISPLAY of prayer in public school so important to Christians?

Once you answer that question HONESTLY, you will understand why it's an affront to the separation of church and state.

What difference does it make ? It is their right if they choose to ? Why do groups of Black students get to chant, say it out loud, I am black and I am proud ?

You are always wanting to justify what someone does, to your satisfaction. Exercising a right need not be justified to anyone.

Christians in groups pray aloud all the time. Every gathering in a group results in one selected person praying aloud for the group, it has been that way for 2,000 years.

It isn't a "display" of prayer. It is following the tenant of the faith from the beginning.

Read the 1st Amendment to the Constitution very carefully. It says NOTHING about the separation of Church and state. It does say that the government may not ESTABLISH a religion, a state approved, state sponsored religion, as England has.

Allowing students of any faith to to pray is not establishing a state religion. It establishes their rights.

You must be terrified of religion if you think some kids praying is going to do harm, when they would be by themselves at a club meeting having a beginning prayer.

 

[shmogie]

They were allowed to go anywhere any other students went. And they were allowed to pray anytime they wanted. Just not out loud, en masse. And they were certainly allowed to meet at their church every morning to pray aloud to their heart's content.
I could paint crucifixes on the school building wall because I love Jesus and believe that I need to have that emblem to pray to, but it's still going to be considered defacement of property by the school board. Praying to/at a flag sends a distinct message that is distinctly antithetical to the separation of church and state ideal. Why they did it isn't relevant. It's still going to be considered offensive, and an affront to the Constitution. Just as my reasons for painting the crucifix on school property doesn't stop it from being a crime.

Sorry, but the Constitution says nothing about the separation of Church and state, you need to re read (assuming you once read it) the first amendment.

 

[shmogie]

Do you mean the Ketcham High School where the "OMG! Christian Club" was recently approved?

New York school district reverses decision to reject student's Christian club

Good, they got sued. the law works

 

[dianaiad]

They were allowed to go anywhere any other students went. And they were allowed to pray anytime they wanted. Just not out loud, en masse. And they were certainly allowed to meet at their church every morning to pray aloud to their heart's content.
I could paint crucifixes on the school building wall because I love Jesus and believe that I need to have that emblem to pray to, but it's still going to be considered defacement of property by the school board. Praying to/at a flag sends a distinct message that is distinctly antithetical to the separation of church and state ideal. Why they did it isn't relevant. It's still going to be considered offensive, and an affront to the Constitution. Just as my reasons for painting the crucifix on school property doesn't stop it from being a crime.

The whole point of the example was...that they were NOT allowed to do so. Many other student groups met 'by the flagpole.' It was a standard meeting place for field trips, clubs, etc., However, this particular group was not allowed to meet there. So where do you get off telling me that they were 'allowed to go anywhere any other students went," when the whole point was that they WERE NOT so allowed?

As well, comparing a group meeting by the flag pole (the way MANY other groups met there) that did absolutely no physical harm to said flag pole or to any building is more than a little over the top. Not even close to equal.

A group of students who meet "at the flag pole," freely assembling, using their freedom of speech and freedom of religion to have a voluntary (that is, nobody was forced, coerced or pressured in any way) quiet prayer before school, in a way that did not block traffic, was not obvious, never mind obtrusive, didn't bother anybody or even offend anybody who wasn't looking for something to be offended by.

Certainly they were less offensive than the clique who used the flagpole as a meeting place for 'seniors' and the 'cool' group, not allowing any lower grades or anybody they thought 'lesser' to join them, pass by them or even park close.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The White House said the president will welcome a group of students of Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths to the Oval Office as he issues the updated guidance affirming constitutional protections for expressions of religion in public schools. In taking the action, Grogan said the president will be updating guidance that hasn’t been adapted since 2003.

Grogan pointed to the case of a group of middle school students in Texas who were repeatedly told not to pray in their school cafeteria during lunch break by the school principal, a decision that was later reversed by school district officials, to highlight why the updated guidance is needed.

Speaking at a Miami church in early January, Trump hinted that the action would be made official today -- Jan. 16.
"Very soon, I’ll be taking action to safeguard students and teachers’ First Amendment rights to pray in our schools," Trump said. "They want to take that right along with many other ones."

In addition to the rights of students, Grogan said the administration will take steps to make sure the federal government is being consistent in not discriminating against organizations because of a religious designation, with nine government agencies set to release proposed rules.

In amplifying the president’s message, the Department of Education is set to send a letter to state education secretaries reminding them of students’ protected First Amendment religious rights.

President Trump to issue new guidance asserting students' right to pray in schools

Smoke And Mirrors.

Students have always had the right to pray on their own, in public schools. Even out loud.

Teachers can pray too-- just not as teachers.

Nothing Dump has done, changes either of the above.

He is literally painting gold-colored paint over a solid gold statue, here.

 

[PureX]

The whole point of the example was...that they were NOT allowed to do so.

But they were allowed. What they were not allowed to do is make a spectacle of their prayer. And that's exactly what they DID to do. That's what a lot of Christians seem to want to do, these days.

Many other student groups met 'by the flagpole.' It was a standard meeting place for field trips, clubs, etc., However, this particular group was not allowed to meet there.

And I gave you some very good reasons why, but you aren't considering those. A school is publicly own property, and is under no obligation to provide meeting places for students or anyone else outside the bounds of their educational mandate. To do so is a privilege being offered on behalf of the whole community (that pays for the facility). So if some members of the community object to this extended privilege, then it should and will logically be revoked, as after all, praying is not what the community pays for the school to facilitate.

And children do not have the right of freedom of speech, or of freedom of assembly, while in school or on school grounds.