Prayer: The Miracle of a Literal Super-Power

[Milton Platt]

I can't reply to your comments. It's better if I read them in parts then as a whole so I can understand your points better.

No problem, Carlita. We can even private message if you wish.

 

[Milton Platt]

Common sense always helps.

Common sense does not help. It is nothing more that personal opinion at it's root. That is why scientific verification is so important.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yeah I repeat my questions sometimes because, unless people have a lot of time on their hands, I don't think their reading my posts.

The answer is, that answers to prayer and extremely unlikely events are both happening at the same time.

Could it be that the unlikely events are a form of prayer rather than separate? For example, with my friend, her surviving was a highly unlikely event but even so, I'd consider than an answer to her parents' prayers regardless if it's mundane or miraculous.

To see causation, you have to examine the faith and action of prayer on the part of parties receiving God's blessing. Of course, God helps all as He sees fit, but can be seen to "deliver" more for those that are devout and keep their belief sacred. The skeptic will say that this is bias, and that the faithful are looking for signs of God everywhere and ascribing blessings readily.

From a christian-god point of view, I can see that. Well, more in writing but not in experience.

The skeptic could be onto something. When we are praying (just as if we are looking for, say, a lost pen) and our prayers are answered, we aren't asking to the wind. In some cases, we are literally searching for god (or save you) for answers and when he replies-or how you interpret an event as are reply or not-is basically what the skeptic is referring to. When you found your pen, that doesn't mean you weren't looking for it. It was just out of your control that you actually found it under the sofa rather than the kitchen cabinet.

But it is verifiable that people who pray more are happier, live longer and are less concerned with material wealth. Again, the skeptic claims that stupid people are delusional and that if prayer truly worked, believers would all be winning the lottery; they couldn't be more wrong. Those who devote time to prayer, especially those that do so regularly, think more upon their own conduct and more carefully consider who has a need and ask for God's blessing. Prayer is not some easy, humdrum activity that can be accomplished like firing off a tweet or Facebook "like". The result is therefore more meaningful to the devout who made the prayer, and they are accepting of whether or not someone's cancer magically goes into remission, whether there shall be rain to allow for a decent harvest, or whether a tornado spares something/someone in its path. (These are just examples; in today's society, most of the time it's a medical reversal of fortune that gets tagged as a miracle.)

I don't know. I don't meet many skeptics in person. They are all christian or were christian and mad at god or the Church for one reason or another.

Though, I'd argue for the skeptic that he may just see things less supernatural cause and more natural. When we pray, we are more relaxed and open to communication. It's a meditative technique and it helps the mind be comfortable with whatever situation that person is in.

I'd also disagree that those who do not pray or pray less are not concerned with their own conduct (an implied message from those who do pray are concerned about their conduct above). Instead, the person who doesn't pray sees his own consequences and benefits coming from his own actions and how they affect others. So, if he is going to AA classes because of alcohol drinking and he recovers from it, hey would attribute the benefit to going to class. A christian would attribute it to god.

But both are concerned over their well-being. The former went to class and the other prayed.

Prayer, in the end, is about hope and the resolute knowledge that God has a plan. When someone is given a death sentence by doctors, and there is 0% chance of recovery, yet miraculously he does- that is the superpower of prayer. The spiritual have that hope, and that knowledge, while the non-believer simply accepts the grim reality of what the mortal scientists and doctors claim. He denies the knowledge, because he demands instant gratification and earthly proof beyond flimsy "feelings".

I can see that. I've had brain surgery and been at death's door and never said god in any of my medical experiences (and those to come soon, unfortunately). I think there is a predisposition for christians to think that because, well, they are christians. If someone like myself can't experience a god and knows no god (no indoctrination and all of that), it's impossible for that to be true.

Can you see prayer as a benefit without god?

It doesn't require the Bible. It only requires belief in something greater than yourself.

Anyone that has witnessed the amazement of the cosmos can appreciate this. Such people are not fools to be ignored. Einstein, famously dismissive of organized religion, still believed in a supreme being in the Universe, specifically a creator. Other faiths highlight the need for prayer in their holy scriptures as well. Beware the people who are always dismissive of faith in general, if their natural inclination is, as seen on this thread, to personally attack the specific faith of someone making the argument.

This kinda answered my other question. I don't understand why something needs to be higher than oneself for prayer to be considered as prayer or an affective on.

Are their examples of those or things that are "greater than oneself" that is not religious or spiritual in nature?

As for your friend, it would probably depend on the specific medical condition. If all hope was truly lost by the doctors, and prayer was the only thing that worked, I would say you have you answer there. She wouldn't have merely defied the odds- she turned them on their head and achieved the impossible. If it was a minor thing that surgery and drugs are more than competent to fix nowadays, then maybe, maybe not. In any event, I'm glad she continues to be blessed and has you for a friend.

True. This is where it gets funny. A buddhist can pray for The Buddha's blessings (not as a god), a Christian to Jesus, and a Pagan to, say, Ordin for my friend to be well at the hands of these people or gods. When she survived her illnesses (and heart attack-forgot that part) as a child, it could have been answered by the blessings of The Buddha or directly from Jesus or Ordin.

How do we tell the difference?

I know, since my friend is christian, I would say jesus; but, as a whole, that is a bias way of looking at it, though.

I hope that answers your question(s).

Yep. I knew your answers would have a christian flare, but in general, as with the unlikely events combined with the effects of prayer, I can see that. Just I think that we shouldn't separate spiritual from non-spiritual. Maybe the prayer is the actual coincidence.

Another RF member gave me a reflection on that a year or so ago.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No problem, Carlita. We can even private message if you wish.

Can you quote them instead?

 

[DavidFirth]

So some studies showed mixed results and some showed negative results......That is obviously not a resounding "yes", is it? Many of the studies have had flaws such as too few participants for numbers to be statistically relevant, etc. That is why I quoted the Templeton study. It had a large study base, and it was done by a group that actually had the goal of proving prayer works.

I appreciate you're quoting a good study instead of cherry picking one that happened to make your point. You da man.

 

[McBell]

I apologize for calling you unintelligent. I was wrong about that.

No worries.
Heat of the moment and all that.

 

[QuestioningMind]

No lies. Just your willful ignorance of what's in front of you. And of course, your pathological need to always have the last word.

You threw a hissy-fit, so I attempted to explain that getting a job (or promotion) by means of prayer, isn't the way prayer works. Taking umbrage with the perceived difference between the two is the mock outrage: you weren't talking about a job paying just enough compensation to live; you meant one that would allow you or your family to thrive. It's you that is lying, but mostly to yourself.

An analogous example to help you think. My mistake.

It has to do with expectation. You expect there's no God, have no love in your heart, but figure- "what the heck, let's see if I can win the Lotto or cure my dog's asthma through prayer." And you're really surprised such a lack of faith and conviction, combined with greedy personal desires isn't rewarded?!?

You asked for clarification and answers. When I supplied them, you criticized them and engaged in personal attacks. I am sorry you are frustrated, but I certainly didn't start the thread so that you could peddle an agenda.

Not a fair comparison. You write a lengthy post, demanding answers, and then at the end challenge me that *I* want to have the last word? Great logic, so I "lose" either way. Did you think of that one yourself, or did another bully on the playground teach you?

Lies, lies, and more lies.

It should have been fairly simple for you to answer the simple question: If what I pray for comes to pass, how do I know that it was God answering my prayer or if it would have happened regardless of my prayer? But DAYS and dozens of posts later, all you can do is throw a little tantrum and lie about and misrepresent the question I asked. What pathetically weak faith you have. I'm done. Clearly attempting to communicate with you in a rational manner is a waste of time.

 

[DavidFirth]

No worries.
Heat of the moment and all that.

You're pretty cool. I'm following you now.

 

[Grumpuss]

Lies, lies, and more lies.

It should have been fairly simple for you to answer the simple question: If what I pray for comes to pass, how do I know that it was God answering my prayer or if it would have happened regardless of my prayer? But DAYS and dozens of posts later, all you can do is throw a little tantrum and lie about and misrepresent the question I asked. What pathetically weak faith you have. I'm done. Clearly attempting to communicate with you in a rational manner is a waste of time.

The hissy-fit continues! It's not nice to make personal attacks on someone when you don't like his/her message.

 

[QuestioningMind]

The hissy-fit continues! It's not nice to make personal attacks on someone when you don't like his/her message.

Wow, you had an ENTIRE WEEK to come up with an answer to the simple question and you STILL don't have one. How sad.

 

[Grumpuss]

Wow, you had an ENTIRE WEEK to come up with an answer to the simple question and you STILL don't have one. How sad.

I had already answered it. You refuse to accept any answer, except your own. But I digress- please have the last word, as you so greatly desire.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I had already answered it. You refuse to accept any answer, except your own. But I digress- please have the last word, as you so greatly desire.

Nope, you did not. Instead you completely misrepresented my hypothetical scenario and coped an attitude because someone dared to question your OP. Still sad.