That if Jesus himself (according to the Gospels) finds it pointless to discriminate according to belief as opposed to actual deed, then surely it is at least defensable for people to do the same.
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Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics
- Thread starter Open_Minded
- Start date
Well, the grim fact is that I reject such an interpretation as short-sighted and counter-productive. And so do many Christians, apparently including the current Pope.
It does look like an attempt at course-correction for the RCC. Ratzinger was much more combative when it came to atheism. There was a clear trend in Europe and elsewhere that atheism was gaining ground, and he seemed to feel that the best response was to fight back. So he would make disparaging remarks about atheism. The new pope takes the approach that it is better to reach out than push away. That makes more sense, if you want people to listen to you.
The pope is not a Christian and how do you interpret Isaiah 64:6 and Romans 3:10. They are crystal clear.
If I may be so bold (uneducated inquirer that I am), the Orthodox Church fully agrees with the Pope in this matter. Jesus didn't just redeem the believers. He redeemed EVERYTHING at the Cross and the Tomb--if only we would accept that redemption and continue being redeemed. The seeds are there, planted by God. We just have to water them.
For God so loved the WORLD, not just the believers. God wills that ALL be saved, not just the Christians. Jesus makes ALL things new, not just the Christians.
I find Pope Francis' message a beautiful way of keeping these truths in mind. The world has already been redeemed and transformed... We just need to continue transforming and redeeming it through the communion of love, humility, repentance and virtue. This is our calling, to take the world that God said was "very good," the world that we corrupted through our sins and passions, and transform it back to a "very good" state--and take it even beyond that. We'll need God, yes--but we also need each other, believers and non-believers alike. We are a microcosm of the entire universe. We better ourselves, we better the world around us, and vice-versa.
For God so loved the WORLD, not just the believers. God wills that ALL be saved, not just the Christians. Jesus makes ALL things new, not just the Christians.
I find Pope Francis' message a beautiful way of keeping these truths in mind. The world has already been redeemed and transformed... We just need to continue transforming and redeeming it through the communion of love, humility, repentance and virtue. This is our calling, to take the world that God said was "very good," the world that we corrupted through our sins and passions, and transform it back to a "very good" state--and take it even beyond that. We'll need God, yes--but we also need each other, believers and non-believers alike. We are a microcosm of the entire universe. We better ourselves, we better the world around us, and vice-versa.
John 3:16 goes on to say whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM. The pope says whosoever does good (right) that's not the same thing, so you can't agrue 4 the pope here. A couple verse later it says, "Those who DO NOT BELIEVE stand condemned already." Nothing bout good deeds ( Isaiah tells it all )
Then how do you make sense of Revelations 20:12-13?
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Faith itself is a work. "To have faith" is an action, not just a state of being.
If anything, we Christians are going to be judged much more strictly on the Last Day, since we have the fullness of truth.
Christ says this in Luke 12:47-48:
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
Yes, we must accept and continue in our redemption in order to be saved--but we are all redeemed, whether or not we believe.
Also, I see you have no answer to the rest of the Scripture I posted. Are you going to concede the argument and admit that Jesus has redeemed everyone and everything, as the Scriptures teach?
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Faith itself is a work. "To have faith" is an action, not just a state of being.
If anything, we Christians are going to be judged much more strictly on the Last Day, since we have the fullness of truth.
Christ says this in Luke 12:47-48:
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
Yes, we must accept and continue in our redemption in order to be saved--but we are all redeemed, whether or not we believe.
Also, I see you have no answer to the rest of the Scripture I posted. Are you going to concede the argument and admit that Jesus has redeemed everyone and everything, as the Scriptures teach?
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He was not saying that atheists would gain salvation. It is still theoretically possible for a good atheist to end up being tortured for eternity after the timer goes off at the end of life. Redemption is just an invitation to get right with Jesus. Pope Francis isn't really changing church doctrine here, but he is opening the door to a more civil dialogue with non-believers. Atheism is on the rise in Europe and the US, and that was primarily what drove Ratzinger to make disparaging remarks about atheism. That was the stick. This is the carrot. I doubt that either will slow down the trend.
^Thank you for explaining it better than I could.
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
The pope is not a christian?
I need to put some popcorn on.
I need to put some popcorn on.
The Pope is not a Christian? What?
Are you on a board like a Determining Who is Christian Committee, or something?
On second thought, if this statement of your's is just an in to start slamming Catholics as not being Christian, please don't.
InChrist
Free4ever
InChrist
Free4ever
I was.
InChrist
Free4ever
So when you say you were, what do you mean?
Cool.
I have a huge family, about half of whom are still Catholic. The distinction between Christian and christian is one that some people choose to make, but not all.
I would be interested in seeing a universally accepted definition of Christian, that excludes Catholics -- if you have one.