Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

[LuisDantas]

So why does the popes comment on this make sense to you.

Why, because they state the obvious: even taking for granted that Jesus is God and that there is an afterlife Heaven which is somehow barred from some people for whatever reason, no one should assume that disbelief is an obstacle.

It is not possible to believe that disbelief would be a factor without also believing that God is insane or grossly unfair. Which I guess is not an option for Christians.

 

[Desert Snake]

Why, because they state the obvious: even taking for granted that Jesus is God and that there is an afterlife Heaven which is somehow barred from some people for whatever reason, no one should assume that disbelief is an obstacle.

It is not possible to believe that disbelief would be a factor without also believing that God is insane or grossly unfair. Which I guess is not an option for Christians.

Except that you are putting your own values onto another religion, your only reasoning behind this is the claim that real Xianity is not theistic, it seems, that isn't backed by any history at all though.

 

[LuisDantas]

Except that you are putting your own values onto another religion,

Hardly. I am just judging it for internal consistency and all-around validity.

your only reasoning behind this is the claim that real Xianity is not theistic, it seems, that isn't backed by any history at all though.

No, this has nothing to do with whether Christianity is or should be theistic, but rather just on whether its God is supposed to be sane and fair.

 

[George-ananda]

I pay the pizza.

I just did have a pizza delivered and told them Luis has got the bill. The delivery guy was having none of it..... I knew zen has no practical application.

 

[LuisDantas]

I just did have a pizza delivered and told them Luis has got the bill. The delivery guy was having none of it..... I knew zen has no practical application.

Do you have paypal? I'm a man of my word.

If I get to choose the pizza delivery store, that is.

Some of the time, anyway.

 

[Desert Snake]

Hardly. I am just judging it for internal consistency and all-around validity.




No, this has nothing to do with whether Christianity is or should be theistic, but rather just on whether its God is supposed to be sane and fair.[/

Consistency is theistic salvation through Jesus, He actually says that outright, that's the theistic parameters, like it or not

Ok totally subjective as well. Also, where do you get those criteria from, not the Bible...have you read the Bible? Whole civilizations get toasted for idol worship etc.. what book are you reading!?

 

[George-ananda]

I want something that isn't completely arbitrary.
Did the Bible change between popes, to cause this change?

Interpretations change.

Or could the next pope just come in and make whatever changes he feels necessary off the top of his head.
If suddenly, they rewrote the theory of gravity, I could look up the new data that was found to instigate the change.
But this, what's stopping the next pope from bringing back witch Hunters, or deciding jelly beans have souls, or declaring green is evil? (these are hyperbole, of course, but..)
Change IS wonderful, but it's not really something that goes along with "this book is where we get our morals from, and what we should follow" and then showing how malleable very big ideas are, without the book even changing.

And the Catholic Church is not biblical fundamentalist like conservative protestant denominations. Teachings and writings of Church fathers are also respected and considered. And that includes the new Pope.

That's why I much prefer Catholicism to fundamentalism.

 

[LuisDantas]

Consistency is theistic salvation through Jesus, He actually says that outright, that's the theistic parameters, like it or not

That is not a theistic parameter IMO. It is just a difficult statement to parse. It lacks a clear meaning.

Ok totally subjective as well. Also, where do you get those criteria from, not the Bible...have you read the Bible? Whole civilizations get toasted for idol worship etc.. what book are you reading!?

Any religion is supposed to obey a minimum set of criteria for it to be taken seriously - by me anyway. I guess I always take for granted that people will interpret their scriptures in non-insane ways if they can help it.

 

[Desert Snake]

Any religion is supposed to obey a minimum set of criteria for it to be taken seriously - by me anyway. I guess I always take for granted that people will interpret their scriptures in non-insane ways if they can help it.

Well, it states in the bible that a 'good' non-believer s better than a very open yet false/bad person who is a believer, no interpretation required.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well, it states in the bible that a 'good' non-believer s better than a very open yet false/bad person who is a believer, no interpretation required.

Yes, that is a strike for the validity of the Bible.

 

[George-ananda]

I am sure this will come as no surprise to you, but I think that you agree because this is what you want to believe. But wanting to believe something does not equal "better understanding".

I believe the Pope uses reflection, prayer and study in forming his positions. I also share the Pope's opinion on this subject from my personal study and reflection. From this we form our 'best understanding'.

I understand where people who don't believe in prayer and the spiritual experiences of respected people would say we're just believing what we want to believe. But George-ananda and the Pope don't see it that way as we believe such things can aid us in 'better understanding'.

 

[Straw Dog]

Hey there!

Well, it states in the bible that a 'good' non-believer s better than a very open yet false/bad person who is a believer, no interpretation required.

Perhaps you can help then. What does the Pope and/or the Bible teach about the qualifications of "doing good"?

 

[Desert Snake]

Hey there!



Perhaps you can help then. What does the Pope and/or the Bible teach about the qualifications of "doing good"?

I don't know what the pope teaches, good question. In fact, this topic is whole can of worms, but that's another thread(s).

 

[Estro Felino]

So were either previous popes, or the current one wrong,
or did god change his requirements?
And if a pope can be wrong about something as important as "how you get into heaven" then why should we trust anything else they say?

First of all, I don't believe in Pope's infallibility.
Of course, as a Pelagian, I say that the previous popes were wrong and this one is right.
Catholics in their heart don't believe in Pope's infallibility either.

There are a lot of homophobic Catholic priests who certainly didn't agree with Francis I, when he said that he won't ever judge two gay men loving each other.