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Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics
- Thread starter Open_Minded
- Start date
"The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the world's largest Christian church," --Wikipedia
Exactly. Thank you.
Philomath
Sadhaka
Who are you to decide who is a christian and who isn't?
Not going to give an opinion here, other than to say that I am not very interested in discriminating people by deciding whether they should be considered Christians.
And I am certainly not going to criticize anyone for showing consideration and respect for others. So if saying that makes the Pope any less of a Christian, then maybe being a Christian isn't such a good thing after all.
They are scripture. And as such, they can aim at best to be very well suited to the specific purpose (set in time and space) for which they were written. In any other context, their value and applicability is not their own merit, but rather that of whoever chooses to raise them.
In any case, those two verses are simply statements of lack of worth. They have little doctrinary meaning.
Irrespective of what the Holy Father meant by this particular address, it is Catholic doctrine that atheists can receive salvation in Christ while not explicitly believing in him. We have a doctrine of baptism by implicit desire. It is possible that the Holy Father might be implying this, even though yes, redemption can be thought of as an offer of salvation rather than guarantee itself. What we do know is that this does happen and that God wills to save everyone, even if that salvation needs to be accommodated to their circumstances.
Therefore if atheists were to adhere to the dictates of their conscience, honestly, and have "perfect love" they would receive sanctifying grace and "attain heaven".
His meaning regarding atheists and Catholics working together is much clearer and is where the true import lies for me. He is saying that Catholics should never demonize non-Christians, for example atheists, or fail to recognise truth and goodness in their lives. He is saying that we should not be a "clique" and have an "us vs them" mentality but see good in all human beings.
This could effect a positive change in how many lay Catholics view atheists. In his papal address on 20 March, he described as well his feelings about agnostics/atheists, again positively:
So Pope Francis views atheists not as enemies but as valued allies and is teaching Catholics, indeed all Christians, to see them as such as well. That is significant IMHO.
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Sorry. I did not see that question when I posted previously.
I mean that Christianity is a general term for a religion, of which there are many denominations. In the organized religion of Christianity, Catholicism was what many other denominations broke away from.
To me, it is perfectly fine for other Christians to disagree with Catholicism in general, or on specific matters. However, I do not think it is accurate to say that the Pope is not Christian. It came across to me here, and also other times when people have made similar statements, (saying other people, or other groups, are not Christian) that it is an effort to exclude Catholics from Christianity, as though their version is the "true" form of Christianity.
For any of the members of my family that still consider themselves Catholic, if you asked them, "Are you Christian?" I would be shocked if any of them said, "No."
They would most likely say, "Yes. I am Catholic." That was how I always answered the question when I thought that was accurate for me.
(Meaning they do think of themselves as Christian, and add the distinction that they are of the Catholic version of Christianity.)
InChrist
Free4ever
I believe dictionary definitions can fall short of biblical definitions. Many people believe that they are Christians because they go to church and the church claims to be a Christian church, but is that what the Bible says makes one a Christian? The word “Christian” is used three times in the New Testament ( Acts 11:26; 26:28;1Peter 4:16). Followers of Jesus Christ were first called Christians because their behavior, activity, and speech were like Christ. The word “Christian” literally means, “belonging to Christ” or a “follower of Christ.”
The scriptures teach that the good works we do cannot make us acceptable to God. Titus 3:5 says, “He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” So, a Christian is someone who has been born again by God ( John 3:3; John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23) because they put faith and trust in Jesus Christ and His redemptive work on the cross and His resurrection power over death.
I’ve heard it said that going to church does not make one a Christian any more than going to a garage makes one an automobile. I think people may think they are Christians because they go to church, have gone to church, or have been baptized in a “Christian’ church, but I believe the determining question is, have they personally trusted Jesus Christ for forgiveness and eternal life? People often leave religions and churches, but as Peter’s example shows believers do not leave Jesus Christ.
Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” John 6:67-68
The scriptures teach that the good works we do cannot make us acceptable to God. Titus 3:5 says, “He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” So, a Christian is someone who has been born again by God ( John 3:3; John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23) because they put faith and trust in Jesus Christ and His redemptive work on the cross and His resurrection power over death.
I’ve heard it said that going to church does not make one a Christian any more than going to a garage makes one an automobile. I think people may think they are Christians because they go to church, have gone to church, or have been baptized in a “Christian’ church, but I believe the determining question is, have they personally trusted Jesus Christ for forgiveness and eternal life? People often leave religions and churches, but as Peter’s example shows believers do not leave Jesus Christ.
Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” John 6:67-68
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Good deeds of any person do have a reward; no doubt about it.
Jesus did not present any concept of salvation without belief in one true God, in my opinion.
I think the Christian top clergy should revise his thinking.
Jesus did not present any concept of salvation without belief in one true God, in my opinion.
I think the Christian top clergy should revise his thinking.
I happen to agree. However, biblical definitions are only as good as the effort put into lending them clarity and actual meaning.
What does "pleasing God" have to do with salvation? Are you saying it's not by Grace? You have to make him happy first?
That's fine. You are free to believe what you believe.
I don't really want to continue a discussion about what constitutes a "Christian" in this thread that is about the Pope's homily. I think it's on the verge of veering way off topic, and I don't want to do that.
A person stated that the Pope is not a Christian. I think most Catholics do consider themselves Christian, as I indicated in my previous post. I'm good with leaving it at that.
InChrist
Free4ever
Okay, although we may not agree I'm fine with taking the discussion no further and respecting your freedom to believe as you believe also.
Do you really think that you can only do good works if you believe the Christian story?
I gave $10 to the humane shelter the other day. I am an atheist. Was my deed not good?
Has the Parable of the Samaritan been excised from the Bible?
Ashoka
श्री कृष्णा शरणं मम
Philomath
Sadhaka
Open_Minded
Nothing is Separate
WOW !!!! Leave a few hours, come back and the thread explodes.
In reading all the responses, all I can think is that this debate over whether Catholics are "Christian" (or not) is exactly why we need more interfaith dialog.
In reading all the responses, all I can think is that this debate over whether Catholics are "Christian" (or not) is exactly why we need more interfaith dialog.
Pope Francis expresses here an interpretation that rings true with all the Catholic members of my family, including my grandmother for decades before she passed away. I know my mother was delighted to hear the love, forgiveness, and grace in his words, and she remains Catholic.
And for the record, they all identify themselves as Christian, though they rarely - if ever - talk ABOUT their Christianity. They see themselves as people like everyone else.