• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Polytheism and Canaanite origins of Hebrew religion.

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The bible is evidence, and there is a lot of other anecdotal evidence that is found written in numerous books on the subject. To say that the Exodus of the bible was just invented out of thin air would be astonishing.

Actually, not the subject of the thread. I defer to the thread on this topic.

Nothing is "very much accepted." From what I know of biblical archaeology, very little is "very much accepted" just because there is so little reliable evidence of this ancient era. There are conflicting positions and interpretations upon most things by the different schools. The "bible is fiction" school is obviously your school. That is not a universal position. Moreover your focus, as I said earlier, relies too much on token linguistic similarities between the Canaanites and the Israelites. That does not infer a similar theological or syncretic system. The article to which I deferred clearly describes the predominating feature of the Israelites known to the Egyptians, even as early as 1400BC, being their worship of YHWH, which conflicts with a Canaanite pantheon based origin.

The Egyptian citiation does not conflict with YHWH being part of Canaanite pantheon. It is simply a reference to YHWH.

The linguistic origins of the Hebrew written language is not token, because the Canaanite/Ugarit language existed far older than the Hebrew language, and the earliest finds (very limited) are distinctly a primitive Canaanite/Hebrew. Can you provide any distinctive Hebrew language older ~700 BCE?

The Mesha Stele is circa 840BC and far later than the period that I am deferring to.

The Mesha Stele is in the Moabite Canaanite language and not a primitive version of Canaanite/Hebrew. This further documents that the Canaanite language was the dominant language and other languages in the region evolved from Canaanite. The archeological evidence for the region including the linguistic evidence demonstrates that the tribes were Canaanite/Ugarit in their cultural identity. The archaeological evidence found in the Hebrew villages in the region contained Canaanite figures of a female god, and other evidence of Canaanite culture. Yes there is evidence of the evolution of a distinctive Hebrew culture to the time after ~700 BCE when the Hebrews became a distinctive culture with their own language.

Ps 82;1 does not refer to a pantheon of gods, but to human judges, or to the "mighty." In fact your interpretation of YHWH giving judgement amongst pagan gods is naive, because Ps;82;2 onwards is clearly a rebuke directed towards human judges and their wicked judgements.

The translation stands as correct for Ps. 82:1, and adding verse 2 does not change anything when you use the correct translation.

The NIV version:

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

2 “How long will you (The Hebrew is plural). defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?

Just conjecture on your part. El is a generic name for God which was used up until the time of Moses, by the proto Israelites.

I acknowledged this, and you are neglecting the fact that it is used two ways. Also the Most High (El Eloyn) in the scripture I refer to does not refer to a generic reference to God.

YHWH has no known origin from any pantheon. To allow the bible to source your evidence of YHWH (I will be whom I will be) as the son of El is just trite misconception.

False, the correct translations of El in this case refer to Most High (El Eloyn), and refer to all Gods of sons of Most High (El Eloyn).

"I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El-Shaddai--'God Almighty'--but I did not reveal my name, Yahweh, to them." (Ex 6;3)

The Exodus text is a much more recent post ~700 BCE book of the Pentateuch after the exile when Hebrews became dominantly monotheistic.. There is absolutely no evidence that Exodus existed prior to this, Can you provide one shred of evidence that Exodus existed prior to this?
 
Last edited:

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Shuny, Stating the obvious as if it's meaningful is well what ever. Not surprisingly you as a harsh theist/pythagorean didnt include pantheism. Then again pythagoreans are pretty clueless reductive theists.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Shuny, Stating the obvious as if it's meaningful is well what ever. Not surprisingly you as a harsh theist/pythagorean didn't include pantheism. Then again pythagoreans are pretty clueless reductive theists.

Needs more explanation???!!???

I am a Theist, but 'harsh theist/pythagorean,' is a rather obtuse 'off topic' accusation. The question of pantheism (actually a form of atheism in my view) is not the topic of the thread.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
The Egyptian citiation does not conflict with YHWH being part of Canaanite pantheon. It is simply a reference to YHWH.
It is not "simply" a reference to YHWH. It is a rather unique reference to YHWH. No other peoples is called by the name of their God (god) in the Egyptian inscriptions, so it is a very notable thing.

The linguistic origins of the Hebrew written language is not token, because the Canaanite/Ugarit language existed far older than the Hebrew language, and the earliest finds (very limited) are distinctly a primitive Canaanite/Hebrew. Can you provide any distinctive Hebrew language older ~700 BCE?
Obviously the language of the Canaanites and the early Hebrews was very similar, although the Ugarit tablets are written in 4 different languages. There is no need to provide proof of any distinctive Hebrew language at an early date, though I am sure the Hebrews evolved their own dialects.

The Proto-Canaanite script seems to have arisen in Egypt, in any case, and became widely dispersed, leading to a common set of dialects.

The Mesha Stele is in the Moabite Canaanite language and not a primitive version of Canaanite/Hebrew. This further documents that the Canaanite language was the dominant language and other languages in the region evolved from Canaanite. The archeological evidence for the region including the linguistic evidence demonstrates that the tribes were Canaanite/Ugarit in their cultural identity. The archaeological evidence found in the Hebrew villages in the region contained Canaanite figures of a female god, and other evidence of Canaanite culture. Yes there is evidence of the evolution of a distinctive Hebrew culture to the time after ~700 BCE when the Hebrews became a distinctive culture with their own language.
The Hebrews were inveterate backsliders and adopted Canaanites gods for long periods, as the bible says. We can assume that due to the common origin of the Proto-Canaanite script, that the original Israelites shared a similar language with the Canaanites. In Ugarit Yahweh was not worshipped, and this provides sufficient evidence in itself of a marked religious distinction between the Hebrews and the Canaanites.
Here is an interesting article on linguistics:
THE LANGUAGE OF GOD

The translation stands as correct for Ps. 82:1, and adding verse 2 does not change anything when you use the correct translation.

The NIV version:

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

2 “How long will you (The Hebrew is plural). defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?

I acknowledged this, and you are neglecting the fact that it is used two ways. Also the Most High (El Eloyn) in the scripture I refer to does not refer to a generic reference to God.

False, the correct translations of El in this case refer to Most High (El Eloyn), and refer to all Gods of sons of Most High (El Eloyn).
El Shaddai, El Elyon, and El Berith are all generic references to God, as in common between the bible and the Ugarit texts.

"gods" in the bible can refer to anyone with power; e.g. Ps 82;6 "I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. 7"Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes."

Obviously "gods" infers men with authority & power, because pagan gods do not die like men.

The Exodus text is a much more recent post ~700 BCE book of the Pentateuch after the exile when Hebrews became dominantly monotheistic.. There is absolutely no evidence that Exodus existed prior to this, Can you provide one shred of evidence that Exodus existed prior to this?
Moses, Phinehas, Hophni, and Hur are all Egyptian names. Aaron could derive from Aaru the Egyptian heaven ruled by Osiris. It is likely that the Tribe of Levi at least came out of Eqypt. The Song of Deborah, in Israel, doesn’t mention Levi. The Song of Miriam, in Egypt, doesn’t mention Israel. These texts are old. The Levites were a violent and dominant tribe. The Levites slaughter the people associated with the golden calf incident, thus following Moses’ command to put them to the sword.

The architecture of the Tabernacle and its surrounding courtyard matches that of the battle tent of Pharaoh Rameses II, for which we have archaeological evidence, cf. Professor Michael Homan (To Your Tents, O Israel, 2005). Circumcision was an Egyptian practice. Law also reflects Egyptian origin (Exodus 12, says, “You shall have one Torah for the citizen and the alien...because we were aliens in Egypt.”

As I said all anecdotal evidence. But there is a lot more if you read the right books, and especially the plagues could easily have derived from the massive Santorini eruption as it was felt in the land of Egypt.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Needs more explanation???!!???

I am a Theist, but 'harsh theist/pythagorean,' is a rather obtuse 'off topic' accusation. The question of pantheism (actually a form of atheism in my view) is not the topic of the thread.
the post itself is stating the obvious as if it's what? Informative insightful educated? Although now I think about it that is in today's world informative insightful and highly educated!!! So I take it all back you are a genius for stating the obvious as if it's meaningful. I paid lots of money for such nonsense as a kid!!!
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ok, monolarity may be a better term.

I do not consider Hebrew tribes as a homogenous entity. In fact, My reference to tribal Gods refers to a diversity of beliefs that evolved. There may be tension between tribes concerning whose Go or Gods are the true God(s). I question, your 'imagining a monotheistic YHWH cult early in Hebrew history. I believe the YHWH god evolved from a polytheistic and/or monolarity or henotheistic God to a Monotheistic God.

I agree. The Bible itself tells us the Hebrew people kept turning back to their original God and Goddess.

Genesis says in THEIR image = male and female.

The Bible tells us the new group committed genocide over and over against those whom chose to worship the old God and Goddess.

They originally had child sacrifice just as the Canaanites, which they originally were.

*
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It is not "simply" a reference to YHWH. It is a rather unique reference to YHWH. No other peoples is called by the name of their God (god) in the Egyptian inscriptions, so it is a very notable thing.

How notable is questionable. It is a reference to YHWH nothing other than that. There is no definitive conclusion beyond YHWH is associated with the Hebrews.

Obviously the language of the Canaanites and the early Hebrews was very similar, although the Ugarit tablets are written in 4 different languages. There is no need to provide proof of any distinctive Hebrew language at an early date, though I am sure the Hebrews evolved their own dialects.

Yes there is a need to have a Hebrew language if you are going to claim any Hebrew scriptures before ~700 BCE. Culture is clearly associated with language and before ~700 BCE the written language and culture evolved from Canaanite language and culture.

The Proto-Canaanite script seems to have arisen in Egypt, in any case, and became widely dispersed, leading to a common set of dialects.

Absolutely no, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Proto-Canaaanite script is associated with Egypt. It is associated with the common culture and origins with the Canaanite/Ugarit language and culture.

The Hebrews were inveterate backsliders and adopted Canaanites gods for long periods, as the bible says. We can assume that due to the common origin of the Proto-Canaanite script, that the original Israelites shared a similar language with the Canaanites. In Ugarit Yahweh was not worshipped, and this provides sufficient evidence in itself of a marked religious distinction between the Hebrews and the Canaanites.
Here is an interesting article on linguistics:
THE LANGUAGE OF GOD

Again, culture origins and language are associated and your interpretation of 'backsliding' assumes that Hebrews we culturally not originally Canaanite tribes does not fit the evidence. The same is true of the Moabites.

El Shaddai, El Elyon, and El Berith are all generic references to God, as in common between the bible and the Ugarit texts.

Which indicates a cultural and linguistic connection between Cnaanite/Ugarit people.

"gods" in the bible can refer to anyone with power; e.g. Ps 82;6 "I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. 7"Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes."

Obviously "gods" infers men with authority & power, because pagan gods do not die like men.
Here we disagree, I have more references that covers this more.

Moses, Phinehas, Hophni, and Hur are all Egyptian names. Aaron could derive from Aaru the Egyptian heaven ruled by Osiris. It is likely that the Tribe of Levi at least came out of Eqypt. The Song of Deborah, in Israel, doesn’t mention Levi. The Song of Miriam, in Egypt, doesn’t mention Israel. These texts are old. The Levites were a violent and dominant tribe. The Levites slaughter the people associated with the golden calf incident, thus following Moses’ command to put them to the sword.

There is no evidence that these texts are old, the Proto-Canaanite language has no relationship to Egypt. It is acknowledge that some Hebrews were slaves in Egypt. Common routes of some names is not significant evidence.

The architecture of the Tabernacle and its surrounding courtyard matches that of the battle tent of Pharaoh Rameses II, for which we have archaeological evidence, cf. Professor Michael Homan (To Your Tents, O Israel, 2005). Circumcision was an Egyptian practice. Law also reflects Egyptian origin (Exodus 12, says, “You shall have one Torah for the citizen and the alien...because we were aliens in Egypt.”

As I said all anecdotal evidence. But there is a lot more if you read the right books, and especially the plagues could easily have derived from the massive Santorini eruption as it was felt in the land of Egypt.

Your into Exodus and not the subject of the thread.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I agree. The Bible itself tells us the Hebrew people kept turning back to their original God and Goddess.

Genesis says in THEIR image = male and female.

The Bible tells us the new group committed genocide over and over against those whom chose to worship the old God and Goddess.

They originally had child sacrifice just as the Canaanites, which they originally were.

*

I agree, but the difference of opinion lies in how early in Hebrew history they became monotheistic. My view by the evidence is this rise of monotheism is very late, ~900 - ~600 BCE. There of course was cultural tension between their polytheistic heritage and monotheism, and yes backsliding as you call it

The presence of female Canaanite idols in Hebrew villages in Judea confirms this.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
How notable is questionable. It is a reference to YHWH nothing other than that. There is no definitive conclusion beyond YHWH is associated with the Hebrews.

Yes there is a need to have a Hebrew language if you are going to claim any Hebrew scriptures before ~700 BCE. Culture is clearly associated with language and before ~700 BCE the written language and culture evolved from Canaanite language and culture.
Mid 2nd millennium (1500BC) inscriptions have been found at Serabit el-Khadim where Turquoise was mined extensively, possibly by North Western Canaanites. These Proto-Sinaitic alaphabets have a good correlation with the Armana letters and other materials found at Ugarit. (see Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research © 1948, Albright - The Early Alphabetic Inscriptions from Sinai and their Decipherment). There is extensive cross-correlation of Canaanite gods/godesses with Egyptian gods/goddesses too. Hathor - Balat, Ptah - Koshar, Sekmet - Qudshu & Astarte.

This script is the reconstructed common ancestor of the Proto-Canaanite, Phoenician and South Arabian scripts (and, by extension, of most historical and modern alphabets) . The Wadi el-Hol inscriptions in southern Egypt pre-date this but are graphically very similar to the Serabit inscriptions, but show a greater hieroglyphic influence (Wiki).

What we see then is a translation from Egyptian hieroglyphs into the Phoenician alphabet occuring over time of the Israelite migration into Canaan. It is thus not necessarily the case that the later Hebrew variant of the alphabet came "from the Canaanites." as they share a common Proto-Sinaitic origin derived from Egypt, which is where the Israelites were originally.

Thus the Egyptian water ripple conveys the sound value n, which was used in Proto-Sinaitic to represent the sound “M”, and which was adapted into the Phoenician alphabet to represent the same sound. It remained that way in subsequent scripts. The Western letter “M” comes from the Egyptian water ripple. Similarly the Egyptian eye symbol was translated into the "o" letter.

I will address the rest of your post later.
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Mid 2nd millennium (1500BC) inscriptions have been found at Serabit el-Khadim where Turquoise was mined extensively, possibly by North Western Canaanites. These Proto-Sinaitic alaphabets have a good correlation with the Armana letters and other materials found at Ugarit. (see Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research © 1948, Albright - The Early Alphabetic Inscriptions from Sinai and their Decipherment). There is extensive cross-correlation of Canaanite gods/godesses with Egyptian gods/goddesses too. Hathor - Balat, Ptah - Koshar, Sekmet - Qudshu & Astarte.

This script is the reconstructed common ancestor of the Proto-Canaanite, Phoenician and South Arabian scripts (and, by extension, of most historical and modern alphabets) . The Wadi el-Hol inscriptions in southern Egypt pre-date this but are graphically very similar to the Serabit inscriptions, but show a greater hieroglyphic influence (Wiki).

What we see then is a translation from Egyptian hieroglyphs into the Phoenician alphabet occuring over time of the Israelite migration into Canaan. It is thus not necessarily the case that the later Hebrew variant of the alphabet came "from the Canaanites." as they share a common Proto-Sinaitic origin derived from Egypt, which is where the Israelites were originally.

Thus the Egyptian water ripple conveys the sound value n, which was used in Proto-Sinaitic to represent the sound “M”, and which was adapted into the Phoenician alphabet to represent the same sound. It remained that way in subsequent scripts. The Western letter “M” comes from the Egyptian water ripple. Similarly the Egyptian eye symbol was translated into the "o" letter.

I will address the rest of your post later.

I do not doubt Egyptian influence, but your neglecting the closer relationship to the Babylonian cuneiform writings, myths and scripture that evolved into Pheonician, Canaanite/Ugarit writing, myths and writings, and the much later Genesis accounts.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
I do not doubt Egyptian influence, but your neglecting the closer relationship to the Babylonian cuneiform writings, myths and scripture that evolved into Pheonician, Canaanite/Ugarit writing, myths and writings, and the much later Genesis accounts.
OK, I accept that Ugaritic language, which became extinct with the demise of Ugarit, used cuneiform derived from Mesopotamia, but it died out. I accept that Ugarit gods came from Mesopotamia. Yet Ugarit was destroyed 1180 BC. The Ugaritic alphabetic writing system was among the first of simplified forms yet it died out in Palestine. Alphabetic writing was only completed in Byblos by the abandonment of cuneiform and the adoption of the Phoenician script based on the Proto Sinaitic script. Phoenicia was flourishing as early as the third millennium b.c. in the Levant, but did not become dominant until 1100BC. The Palaeo-Hebrew alphabet, is a variant of the Phoenician alphabet derived from the same source.

It tends to suggest that similar alphabets developed in parallel amongst the various semitic language users. Ugaritic is classified as a Northwest Semitic language and therefore related to Hebrew, Aramaic, and Phoenician, but as to alphabet & script, the Hebrews borrowed little or nothing from the old Canaanites, e.g. as at Ugarit, except the generic names of the supreme god El, and sundry heathen deities that led them astray at various times.
 
Last edited:

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I agree, but the difference of opinion lies in how early in Hebrew history they became monotheistic. My view by the evidence is this rise of monotheism is very late, ~900 - ~600 BCE. There of course was cultural tension between their polytheistic heritage and monotheism, and yes backsliding as you call it

I don't call it backsliding. :D They wanted to follow their original God and Goddess. Which they had a right to do, - which is why it is genocide when the YHVH people murder them over-and-over, for doing so.

The presence of female Canaanite idols in Hebrew villages in Judea confirms this

Indeed over 100,000 Goddess figurines, some still in their temples.

And the Bible itself tells us this. Though they now consider it evil.

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

*
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I don't call it backsliding. :D They wanted to follow their original God and Goddess. Which they had a right to do, - which is why it is genocide when the YHVH people murder them over-and-over, for doing so.



Indeed over 100,000 thousand Goddess figurines, some still in their temples.

And the Bible itself tells us this. Though they now consider it evil.

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

*
Yes, references to the Queen of Heaven in the OT do demonstrate polytheism, or a hierarchical polytheism believed by Hebrews.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
Again, culture origins and language are associated and your interpretation of 'backsliding' assumes that Hebrews we[re] culturally not originally Canaanite tribes does not fit the evidence. The same is true of the Moabites.

Which indicates a cultural and linguistic connection between Cnaanite/Ugarit people.
None of the Canaanite tribes had any conception of YHWH. Canaanites were all ba'alists. You continuously and deliberately overlook the evidence of the connection between Israel and YHWH stretching back to 1400BC. Israel spoke the same semitic language as the Canaanites because they came originally from Canaan so there were those similarities. Israel did not produce any polytheistic literature as in Ugarit. There is no evidence that Ba'al worship in Israel was other than temporary lapses.

Moreover even your own theory that monotheism in Israel arose in the 7th & 6th centuries BC provides no explanation, because Babylon was not a monotheistic society. You're just shifting the issue down the road of history.

There is no credible evidence that the Israelites and the Canaanites were of the same culture. Canaanites did not have Egyptian names, and the Eqyptians treated the Israelites as unique amongst the nations from 1400BC.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
None of the Canaanite tribes had any conception of YHWH. Canaanites were all ba'alists.

Canaanite tribes had diversity of Gods. You admitted that "El Shaddai, El Elyon, and El Berith are all generic references to God, as in common between the bible and the Ugarit texts."

Ugarits were a Canaanite tribe and also had a relationship with the Hebrews. These are also specific names of Gods in these cultures.

You continuously and deliberately overlook the evidence of the connection between Israel and YHWH stretching back to 1400BC. Israel spoke the same semitic language as the Canaanites because they came originally from Canaan so there were those similarities. Israel did not produce any polytheistic literature as in Ugarit. There is no evidence that Ba'al worship in Israel was other than temporary lapses.

I have never neglected the references of YHWH, but you are neglecting the fact of wide spread worship of the female Canaanite Goddess among Hebrews and references in the Bible, which is one of the inks between Canaanite polytheism culture and Hebrew cuture.

Moreover even your own theory that monotheism in Israel arose in the 7th & 6th centuries BC provides no explanation, because Babylon was not a monotheistic society. You're just shifting the issue down the road of history.

The argument Monotheism arose after the 7th and 6th is not dependent on Babylonia being a monotheistic society, though Zorastrianism is monotheism Ahura Mazda, believing in an evil opponent Aura Mainyu.

There is no credible evidence that the Israelites and the Canaanites were of the same culture. Canaanites did not have Egyptian names, and the Eqyptians treated the Israelites as unique amongst the nations from 1400BC.

There is a great deal of not only credible, but good evidence, when cultures have a common language they are culturally related. Archaeology showing common idols of a Goddess with the Canaanites and Hebrews. Canaan was called the 'Land of Canaan' or the Levant and is region semitic speaking region which includes all of Israel and Hills of Judah as described in the Bible. These represent much closer cultural ties than the Hebrews have with Egypt. Egypt considered all of the region as Canaan including the Hills Judah was considered Canaan.

From: Canaan - Wikipedia

"During the 2nd millennium BC, Ancient Egyptian texts use the term Canaan to refer to an Egyptian-ruled colony, whose boundaries generally corroborate the definition of Canaan found in the Hebrew Bible, bounded to the west by the Mediterranean Sea, to the north in the vicinity of Hamath in Syria, to the east by the Jordan Valley, and to the south by a line extended from the Dead Sea to around Gaza. Nevertheless, the Egyptian and Hebrew uses of the term are not identical: the Egyptian texts also identify the coastal city of Qadesh in north west Syria near Turkey as part of the "Land of Canaan", so that the Egyptian usage seems to refer to the entire Levantine coast of the Mediterranean Sea, making it a synonym of another Egyptian term for this coastland, Retenu or rather Retjenu."

Some common Egyptian names is not good evidence for any significance of the commonness of culture. Yes, there were Hebrew slaves in Egypt over the history of the relationship between Canaan and Israel.

Please note in terms of Hebrew polytheism the beliefs in the Queen of Heaven as cited in scripture.

From: NOVA - Official Website | Ancient Worlds archeology-hebrew-bible.html

"One of the astonishing things is your discovery of Yahweh's connection to Asherah. Tell us about that.

In 1968, I discovered an inscription in a cemetery west of Hebron, in the hill country, at the site of Khirbet el-Qí´m, a Hebrew inscription of the 8th century B.C.E. It gives the name of the deceased, and it says "blessed may he be by Yahweh"—that's good biblical Hebrew—but it says "by Yahweh and his Asherah."

Asherah is the name of the old Canaanite Mother Goddess, the consort of El, the principal deity of the Canaanite pantheon. So why is a Hebrew inscription mentioning Yahweh in connection with the Canaanite Mother Goddess? Well, in popular religion they were a pair.

image-07-large.jpg

Dever says he nearly had a heart attack when he first read the inscription on this slab. It links the Israelite God, Yahweh, to the Canaanite Mother Goddess, Asherah. EnlargePhoto credit: © WGBH Educational Foundation


The Israelite prophets and reformers denounce the Mother Goddess and all the other gods and goddesses of Canaan. But I think Asherah was widely venerated in ancient Israel. If you look at Second Kings 23, which describes the reforms of King Josiah in the late 7th century, he talks about purging the Temple of all the cult paraphernalia of Asherah. So the so-called folk religion even penetrated the Temple in Jerusalem.

Is there other evidence linking Asherah to Yahweh?
In the 1970s, Israeli archeologists digging in Kuntillet Ajrud in the Sinai found a little desert fort of the same period, and lo and behold, we have "Yahweh and Asherah" all over the place in the Hebrew inscriptions.

Are there any images of Asherah?
For a hundred years now we have known of little terracotta female figurines. They show a nude female; the sexual organs are not represented but the breasts are. They are found in tombs, they are found in households, they are found everywhere. There are thousands of them. They date all the way from the 10th century to the early 6th century."

This is not simply backsliding by some Hebrews, by the archaeological evidence it is dominant prior to ~600 BCE, and a distinct attribute of Canaanite culture.
 
Last edited:

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
BAAL YHVH

Hos 2:16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.H1180

Baal Gad = Lord God, and if you have read some of our threads here, you would have seen conversations about the Hebrew originally being wandering Canaanites. The Canaanites worshipped Baal Gad, and sacrificed their sons to him. According to the Bible the Hebrew also worshiped, and had child sacrifice, to Baal.
Eze 20:25 Wherefore I (YHVH) gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
Eze 20:26 And - I - polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am YHVH
*
Molech - Baal.

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My heart, that they should do this detestable thing, to cause Judah to sin.

" In other words, the Melech to whom child-sacrifices were offered was Yahweh under another name. To uphold this view appeal is made in particular to Jer., vii, 31; xix, 5, and to Ezech., xx, 25-31."- Catholic Encyclopedia

"In 1841, both Georg Friedrich Daumer and Friedrich Wilhelm Ghillany published influential works on the topic.[18] These authors came to the conclusion that the Biblical text reflect an original identity of Molek and Yahweh, and that the cult of Yahweh grew out of that of Molek by the abolishing of human sacrifice. The authors find numerous instances of vestigial references to human sacrifice, most notably the law that all firstborns must be "consecrated" or "given" to Yahweh (Exodus 13:2, 22:28)." Moloch - Wikipedia
*
Hos 4:13 They sacrifice upon the tops of the mountains, and burn incense upon the hills, under oaks and poplars and elms, because the shadow thereof is good: therefore your daughters shall commit whoredom, and your spouses shall commit adultery.
Hos 4:16 For Israel slideth back as a backsliding heifer: now YHVH will feed them as a lamb in a large place.
*
2Ki 23:4 And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest, and the priests of the second order, and the keepers of the door, to bring forth out of the temple of YHVH all the vessels that were made for Baal, and for the Asherah, and for all the host of heaven: and he burned them without Jerusalem in the fields of Kidron, and carried the ashes of them unto Bethel.
*
2Ki 23:7 And he brake down the Court of the QADESH, that were in the Temple of YHVH, where the women wove hangings for ASHERA.

"1 Chronicles 12:5 mentions the name Bealiah, meaning either Baal-Yahweh, or "Yahweh is Baal."

After Gideon's death, according to Judges 8:33, the Israelites started to worship a Baal Berith ("Lord of the Covenant"), and the citizens of Shechem supported Abimelech's attempt to become king by giving him 70 shekels from the temple of Baal Berith (Judges 9:4). The scene involving this "Lord of the Covenant" appears eerily similar one described in Joshua 24:25 as involving a covenant with Yahweh. Judges 9:46 goes on to say that these supporters of Abimelech enter "the House of El Berith"—apparently the same temple earlier referred to as belonging to Baal. Thus, all three names—Baal, El, and Yahweh—refer to a Covenant Deity at Shechem; and possibly to one deity referred to by three different names. The fact that altars devoted to Yahweh, even in the Temple of Jerusalem itself, were characterized by horned altars could also indicate a carryover from more primitive days with El and Baal (both of whom were sometimes portrayed as bulls) were not worshiped on common hilltop altars with Yahweh." Baal - New World Encyclopedia

*
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Territorial? It is more like tribal Gods, possibly some reference to foreign Gods, henotheism (a hierarchy of Gods.), and in many instances polytheism including a female God, as Canaanite idols found in archaeological finds in ancient Hebrew sites.

Most of the people who lived in Moses' time and locale several centuries beyond him believed in territorial gods. This is obvious throughout the OT. Each city had its own god for that city. This is common knowledge.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Most of the people who lived in Moses' time and locale several centuries beyond him believed in territorial gods. This is obvious throughout the OT. Each city had its own god for that city. This is common knowledge.

No it is not common knowledge that each city had its own Gods. For example; as far as the Hebrews are concerned before ~600 BCE the archaelogical evidence indicates at least two Gods were dominant, YHWH and the Canaanite Goddess found throughout Judah as small clay idols, and in references in the OT.

The dominant archaeological evidence is that Gods were more defined by tribe and culture. You need some academic sources to justify your assertions.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
No it is not common knowledge that each city had its own Gods. For example; as far as the Hebrews are concerned before ~600 BCE the archaelogical evidence indicates at least two Gods were dominant, YHWH and the Canaanite Goddess found throughout Judah as small clay idols, and in references in the OT.

The dominant archaeological evidence is that Gods were more defined by tribe and culture. You need some academic sources to justify your assertions.

Reread the OT.
 
Top