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Polytheism and Canaanite origins of Hebrew religion.

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Like the book. In fact, own the book. So, too, From Epic to Canon. Nevertheless, and despite your efforts to impress, the results are sophomoric and increasingly tiresome.

Gotta go; perhaps we'll chat more later. :)

It is very apparent that you are appealing to sophomoric and tiresome 'hand waving' arguments, without substance trying desperately to justify an ancient 'cult of monotheism among Hebrews.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
That doesn't make any sense for a number of reasons:
  1. At no point did Adam worship Eve or equate her with the divine;
  2. Eve was created to be "an help meet" for Adam so what was he supposed to do, ignore her advice?
  3. Eve was deceived by the serpent (operating on Yahweh's knowledge and presumably permission, unless Yahweh isn't actually omniscient) so Christianity says the fault is Eve's? Victim-blaming...
  4. Yahweh placed the Tree of Knowledge in Eden knowing Adam & Eve would eat from it even though he told them not to. What's worse is he made the fruit beguiling That's entrapment so the fault ultimately lies with your god. Which brings me neatly to my next point;
  5. Adam & Eve were created not knowing good or evil, right or wrong etc. It makes literally no sense to punish them for not acting within the constraints of a moral code they were created incapable of perceiving or understanding - and that your god chose to deny them access to;
  6. Early Christians made depictions of the devil so that he resembled Pagan deities like Dionysus, whose worship was prominent at the time Christianity came into being. So technically the Christian Devil was copied from our gods;
Adam forsook the command of God to obey his wife. This represented a form of idolatry. Adam was not deceived, so he did not need to obey her. Eve was deceived by her own vanity and so she was guilty. Entrapment is not a sin. It is a perfectly valid way of catching those predisposed to crime. I've used it myself. Only he who was predisposed to steal actually stole. All the rest passed by the opportunity. Eve was predisposed to sin. In any event, the created has no charge against its creator, and the command given was unambiguous. There is nothing in scripture to say that they did not understand the command or its consequences. The Christian devil is a lowly fellow, but appearing in many masks and guises to deceive the unwary. Seducing gods yesterday, political charlatans today. Nazism one day, human rights the next day. You never know where he may crop up.

At this point I should probably point out that my question was rhetorical as it's impossible to know for certain when, how or why humans developed the concept of a god or goddess as distinct from spirits.
Obviously it lay in the creative power of women.

So in other words humans existed before Adam and the doctrine of Original Sin has no basis whatsoever since Adam is ultimately not humanity's common ancestor.
The doctrine of original sin as taught by Augustine the Manichaean is tripe. Sin is not imputed to anyone by reason of anything Adam did. As to those outside Eden, sin is not imputed where this is no command and no law (Roms 5;13).

The command and law was given to Adam, and from Adam flowed both morality, but also knowledge of and participation in sin to the rest of humanity, which soon became corrupted, not only by its original ignorance, but by its choosing to be disobedient. However a lineage was preserved of God fearing men.
 
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outlawState

Deism is dead
I can and have provided abundant evidence that polytheism, evolved from Canaanite/Ugarit beliefs, and was the dominant belief up until 600 BCE, which is the topic of the thread.
You have not shown that YHWH + "the Asherash legacy derived from earlier Ba'al worship of the Canaanites" represented a systematic engagement with polytheism at a State level. It is similar to today. Local paganism and superstititions by the inhabitants of a country, which are perpetuated from generation to generation, do not necessarily reflect the State religion. There may be a combination of practices. You have not shown that YHWH was a true polytheistic God. Asherah idols do not reflect the works of the Hebrew prophets, who are mostly regarded as authentic by scholars. You have to accept that there were different conceptions of religion amongst different groups of people. This reflects the biblical account.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You have not shown that YHWH + "the Asherash legacy derived from earlier Ba'al worship of the Canaanites" represented a systematic engagement with polytheism at a State level. It is similar to today. Local paganism and superstititions by the inhabitants of a country, which are perpetuated from generation to generation, do not necessarily reflect the State religion. There may be a combination of practices. You have not shown that YHWH was a true polytheistic God. Asherah idols do not reflect the works of the Hebrew prophets, who are mostly regarded as authentic by scholars. You have to accept that there were different conceptions of religion amongst different groups of people. This reflects the biblical account.

I do not have to link it to Ba'al worship.
I have documented it as best as archaeological evidence and the Biblical references show it is Asherash worship. As referenced the various Canaanite Ugarit tribes have common Gods and their own Gods. I also provided good academic references to support this. The Biblical references clearly indicated the 'Kings and Princes' practiced polytheism.

Your problem is to demonstrate that the book of Exodus existed prior to ~600 BCE in the other thread. That you have not done this.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
I do not have to link it to Ba'al worship.
I have documented it as best as archaeological evidence and the Biblical references show it is Asherash worship. As referenced the various Canaanite Ugarit tribes have common Gods and their own Gods. I also provided good academic references to support this. The Biblical references clearly indicated the 'Kings and Princes' practiced polytheism.

Your problem is to demonstrate that the book of Exodus existed prior to ~600 BCE in the other thread. That you have not done this.
Exodus contains many "egyptianisms." The Levites have Egyptian names. It refers to a period of history circa 1500BC which is poorly documented from other sources. However I can start a thread on this, when I have sufficient material, which I do have, but not to hand at present. I will have to dig it out. Your thesis is a limited one, being that the Hebrews engaged with Canaanite polythesism, which the bible admits. So there isn't really much else that you can prove as your thesis is very limited, showing that polytheistic practices crept into Israelite YHWH worship. So what? It's not enough to say that monotheism started only in 600BC, because you have no evidence of it, and especially you have no evidence to rebut the biblical account of YHWH worship predating this by many centuries. As as I said right from the start, a lot of errors seem to have arisen from discounting a late date for the Exodus, and then assuming that it had never happened at all. Most biblicists support an early Exodus date these days. However it is another thread.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Exodus contains many "egyptianisms." The Levites have Egyptian names.

Already addressed this and acknowledge there were indeed Hebrew slaves of the Egyptians, no problem.

It refers to a period of history circa 1500BC which is poorly documented from other sources.
Poorly documented from any sources.

Your thesis is a limited one, being that the Hebrews engaged with Canaanite polythesism, which the bible admits. So there isn't really much else that you can prove as your thesis is very limited, showing that polytheistic practices crept into Israelite YHWH worship. So what? It's not enough to say that monotheism started only in 600BC,

Archaeological evidence cited that the female Canaanite/Ugarite female idols were wide spread in Hebrew sites fro before ~1400 to ~600 BCE and disappeared.

because you have no evidence of it, and especially you have no evidence to rebut the biblical account of YHWH worship predating this by many centuries.

I have never objected to YHWH being a Hebrew God, but I have documented the presence of the female God dominant through the whole period until ~600 BCE, documenting the prevalence of polytheism. I have also cited good sources that have documented the intimate linguistic, and text relationship between Canaanite/Ugarit cuneiform text and the OT and including the names of Gods, which you choose to ignore.

As as I said right from the start, a lot of errors seem to have arisen from discounting a late date for the Exodus, and then assuming that it had never happened at all. Most biblicists support an early Exodus date these days. However it is another thread.

Biblicist? I disagree that most scholars accept the the account of Exodus as a literal true account.

The overwhelming evidence is that it never happened as described in Exodus.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Most books were

That is the problem with the Pentateuch being older than ~600 BCE. It is in reality a compilation of ancient Canaanite/Ugarite/Babylonian legends and texts found in early cuneiform texts, and Hebrew traditions, and traditional beliefs.
 
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outlawState

Deism is dead
Biblicist? I disagree that most scholars accept the the account of Exodus as a literal true account.

The overwhelming evidence is that it never happened as described in Exodus.
That is something for which you have provided no evidence. Even the name "Moses" echoes the names of the Pharaohs of his era. This is hardly likely to have been invented out of thin air, nearly 1000 years after the event, somewhere in Babylon, as your fiction presupposes. And although the documentation is sparse, there is documentation that totally refutes your "overwhelming evidence" theory. The bigger the lie, the more likely it is to be believed, eh?

"In the Amarna Tables, the "Habiru" are the Hebrews during the conquest of 1406 BC: "The Habiru are now capturing the fortresses of the Pharaoh. Not a single governor remains among them to my lord the King: all have perished. Zimrida of Lachish has been killed. May the King send help. Lo, if no reinforcements come this year, all the countries of my lord the King will be utterly destroyed. ... The land of the King is lost to the Habiru. And now indeed a city of the territory of Jerusalem, Bet-Ninib, has been captured. ... After taking the city of Rubuda, they are now attempting to take Jerusalem... , What have I done against my lord the King, that thou lovest the Habiru, and hatest the governors? ... The Habiru have wasted all the territory of the King', and so on." (Amarna Tablet, A Letter from Abdu-Heba of Jerusalem, EA 286) "They are now attempting to take Jerusalem. ... Gezer, Ashkelon, and Lachish have given oil, food, and supplies to the Habiru. ... Labaya and the land of Shechem have given all to the Habiru." (Amarna Tablet, A Letter from Abdu-Heba, EA 287)"
New Evidence for Thutmose III as Exodus Pharaoh in 1446 BC
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
That is something for which you have provided no evidence. Even the name "Moses" echoes the names of the Pharaohs of his era. This is hardly likely to have been invented out of thin air, nearly 1000 years after the event, somewhere in Babylon, as your fiction presupposes. And although the documentation is sparse, there is documentation that totally refutes your "overwhelming evidence" theory. The bigger the lie, the more likely it is to be believed, eh?

"In the Amarna Tables, the "Habiru" are the Hebrews during the conquest of 1406 BC: "The Habiru are now capturing the fortresses of the Pharaoh. Not a single governor remains among them to my lord the King: all have perished. Zimrida of Lachish has been killed. May the King send help. Lo, if no reinforcements come this year, all the countries of my lord the King will be utterly destroyed. ... The land of the King is lost to the Habiru. And now indeed a city of the territory of Jerusalem, Bet-Ninib, has been captured. ... After taking the city of Rubuda, they are now attempting to take Jerusalem... , What have I done against my lord the King, that thou lovest the Habiru, and hatest the governors? ... The Habiru have wasted all the territory of the King', and so on." (Amarna Tablet, A Letter from Abdu-Heba of Jerusalem, EA 286) "They are now attempting to take Jerusalem. ... Gezer, Ashkelon, and Lachish have given oil, food, and supplies to the Habiru. ... Labaya and the land of Shechem have given all to the Habiru." (Amarna Tablet, A Letter from Abdu-Heba, EA 287)"
New Evidence for Thutmose III as Exodus Pharaoh in 1446 BC

I have never doubted that Hebrews were slaves of Egypt, and the references you site. This still does not support the Biblical Exodus as written prior to ~600 BCE. There is absolutely no record of Exodus written prior to this, nor a Hebrew written language other than a few scant references to a primitive Canaanite/Ugarit text.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Ok, explain? Most of the Church Fathers responsible for compiling, and editing the NT believe in a literal Genesis and Exodus.
Why wouldnt they? They presumably also believed that *Abraham started monotheism, and that people might worship idols, hence mentioned in the OT. Your premise doesnt explain that polytheism is actually what was practiced at the time of Biblical narrative, but rather that polytheism was extant, a problem, so forth. Two different arguments.



*post falling into idolatry
 
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