Pew study and the Rise of ‘Jews of no religion’

[dantech]

It's rather hard to keep up with your editing ...

I'll try and stop. I often think of better ways to formulate my thoughts after I already posted.

Deuteronomy 7:3 has a context. So did the marriage of Moses and Esther.

So it is only forbidden to marry Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites?
You speak about context, how about 7:4-6?

4.For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

6.For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

You don't think the reason in 7:4 goes hand in hand with 7:6?


As for Esther, the context was that without her marriage to the King, as well as her sneaky, deceitful ways, the decree would have gone through.

 

[metis]

Would you agree that a an intermarriage couple will most likely have some of their children stray away from Judaism, which would put the grand children even further from Judaism than their parents?

I don't think you can reasonably disagree with that, and if you do agree, then you understand that intermarriage slowly, but surely destroys our future as a religion, our ethnicity, our traditions, and eventually our connection to God as we know it...

Of course there's a greater chance they might stray, but there's also a greater chance that others will view our compassion if we live it, and especially then will they will realize that we do have something to offer. Beating people over the head with dogma is not likely to convert many or keep our own at bay.

A friend of mine, who's Orthodox, has a response that might interest you: if God wants us to survive, we will survive.

 

[dantech]

Of course there's a greater chance they might stray, but there's also a greater chance that others will view our compassion if we live it, and especially then will they will realize that we do have something to offer. Beating people over the head with dogma is not likely to convert many or keep our own at bay.

But the problem with your theory is that Judaism is not a proselytizing religions. We don't want to convert people. Why would you be okay with us having a chance at losing our own for the risk of bringing in some from other religions. This is not what Judaism is about, at least not to me.

A friend of mine, who's Orthodox, has a response that might interest you: if God wants us to survive, we will survive.

Alright then, let me shoot myself in the head and see if God wants me to survive. Of course God decides everything, including our survival. That doesn't mean we shouldn't put in the effort we are required too in everything we do, all while having faith.

Perhaps you should tell your friend to study up on the subject of Hishtadlut.

 

[metis]

But the problem with your theory is that Judaism is not a proselytizing religions. We don't want to convert people. Why would you be okay with us having a chance at losing our own for the risk of bringing in some from other religions. This is not what Judaism is about, at least not to me.

Perhaps you should tell your friend to study up on the subject of Hishtadlut.

Judaism used to be a proselytizing religion, but that's not exactly what I was talking about anyway. We are talking about retaining Jews, but also we must consider converts as well since what we're discussing is the survival of Judaism.

Even though the Jewish population in metro-Detroit has been decreasing because of hard economic times here, our Reform shul that's involved with Jewish Renewal is increasing in numbers. Just last spring, a rabbi at a humanistic temple, resigned her job and joined us, not as a rabbi, but as a congregant. If I told my Christian wife I was leaving our synagogue, she would shoot me. I mentioned it on another forum that she has decided to leave her church and just go to synagogue with me, she loves it that much.

Now, before anyone starts saying that this is all happening because we're "Judaism lite", I would propose that it's actually something quite different, namely the compassion and activism of our shul. I one says "I need help with...", they'll never make it to the last word before hands go up. Our rabbi was highly influenced by Shlomo Carlebach, and he and I have attended one of the shuls he frequented in Jerusalem, and much of what we do was modeled after Carlebach.

BTW, as for my friend, his name is Howie Cohen, and he teaches Judaism in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, so maybe you should let him know how much more you know than he.

 

[dantech]

Judaism used to be a proselytizing religion, but that's not exactly what I was talking about anyway. We are talking about retaining Jews, but also we must consider converts as well since what we're discussing is the survival of Judaism.

Since Judaism is not a proselytizing religion, we shouldn't even take conversion into account. If it happens great, but it is not something we should foresee. In retaining Jews, the diagram clearly shows how much the only form of Judaism who does accept interfaith marriage is failing.

Even though the Jewish population in metro-Detroit has been decreasing because of hard economic times here, our Reform shul that's involved with Jewish Renewal is increasing in numbers. Just last spring, a rabbi at a humanistic temple, resigned her job and joined us, not as a rabbi, but as a congregant. If I told my Christian wife I was leaving our synagogue, she would shoot me. I mentioned it on another forum that she has decided to leave her church and just go to synagogue with me, she loves it that much.

That's great! We all love our synagogues. Keep going, and please take as many children as you can to it so they can hopefuly retain their Jewish Identities as they grow.

Now, before anyone starts saying that this is all happening because we're "Judaism lite", I would propose that it's actually something quite different, namely the compassion and activism of our shul. I one says "I need help with...", they'll never make it to the last word before hands go up.

But this is all true for Orthodox and Conservative synagogues as well. We all feel like we are all brothers, and it doesn't limit itself to the Kahal of my shul. We all jump at any occasion to help each other with anything.

BTW, as for my friend, his name is Howie Cohen, and he teaches Judaism in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, so maybe you should let him know how much more you know than he.

I don't claim to know more than him. However, next time he gives you that quote, why don't you ask him about Hishtadlut and see what he says. Ask him about interfaith marriage while you're at it if his opinion is so important to you.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'll try and stop. I often think of better ways to formulate my thoughts after I already posted.

Me too. I was being unnecessarily smotty. My apologies.

I'll grant you Esther. What about Moses?

 

[dantech]

Me too. I was being unnecessarily smotty. My apologies.

No need to apologize. I'm sure it's annoying. BTW, I had to edit this post to add this part

I'll grant you Esther. What about Moses?

Well, when Moses took Tzipporah, there wasn't even a Torah to abide to. Moses was married and had children way before the law was revealed to him by God. At that point in his life, he was nothing but a simple shepherd.

In fact, Exodus 4:24-26 teaches that his son wasn't even circumcised, but you don't want to get into that, do you?

 

[LuisDantas]

Inter-marriage is something I will never agree with. I believe inter-marriage to be the easiest, most seamless way to slowly destroy Judaism.

Sorry if this is not a proper question, but as an outsider I become a bit shocked by the strength of such feelings.

I take it that the worry is that you of the Jewish People have inherited and decided to care for a lot of culture that you deem valuable, and that is gradually forgotten or mishandled by way of mixed marriages?

 

[dantech]

Sorry if this is not a proper question, but as an outsider I become a bit shocked by the strength of such feelings.

I take it that the worry is that you of the Jewish People have inherited and decided to care for a lot of culture that you deem valuable, and that is gradually forgotten or mishandled by way of mixed marriages?

It's more than just culture. To me Judaism is also my way to connect with God. And I believe it is the connection to God for all the Jews who do feel connected. The real problem is not necessarily interfaith marriage, but what derives from it.

If you don't continuously teach your children about your religion, about your God, your traditions, your heritage, your ethnicity, and not only teach them about it, but practice it on a daily basis, then they will lose interest. If they don't completely disregard the religion, their children, or children's children will.

How do you suppose one can lead such a life, when sharing it with a different belief system as well, which will always contradict each other. The kids will either pick a side, or eventually just lose interest all together. Which will lead to the destruction of Judaism, slowly but surely.

This of course is all, IMO because as you can see, a few people here disagree.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well, when Moses took Tzipporah, there wasn't even a Torah to abide to. Moses was married and had children way before the law was revealed to him by God. At that point in his life, he was nothing but a simple shepherd.

That could be a fascinating discussion: before Sinai she was good enough - in fact good enough to circumcise Gershom - but after Sinai she and those like her were off limits (as Pinchas so brutally demonstrates). And then, of course, we also have Bathsheba|Uriah and David|Maachah.

But we digress. Intermarriage happens. We can embrace and nurture the spouse or ostracize the Jew. Each approach has far reaching consequences.

 

[Caladan]

With all due respect, I think you get away with making that argument because you are conversant in Jewish texts, speak Hebrew, and live in Israel.

And also because I inherited Jewish ideals that in my POV do not demand religious observance in order for Jewish culture to survive. I don't regret going through various of Judaism's initiation rites, and I love studying or indulging in various themes of Jewish thought, culture, history and literature. But I strongly believe that a sense of identity comes from a collection of factors, and religious observance may or may not be one of them.
And this is what I'm talking about. If Jews in North America have a problem with keeping general observance of Jewish traditions, they need to ask why and how do they make it relevant for younger generations? I don't find it strange that new generations desire more than religious observance, they want more. In addition I'm not sure about that study at all. The fact that the people surveyed said that their Jewish identity is not depended on religion shows that they still cling to such an identity, they may even celebrate and practice a myriad of Jewish traditions, but they are simply not doing it as strictly or mundanely as before our times. Young people from educated background wish to move forward with the world, they cannot repeat the same rituals. They need new meanings, and for the traditions, rituals and ideals to mean something in today's world, and today's cultural landscape. It seems to me that my American Jewish family is quite in tuned with Jewish traditions. Sure, they are reform, and very modern... but they express and celebrate Jewish tradition beautifully. So in many areas the survey can be manipulated to say many things without taking other factors into account.

When Jews outside Israel assimilate, none of those things are the case. And merely invoking tradition to bolster positive ethics-- especially when done without real understanding of the tradition or traditional ethical discourses-- is simply insufficient to maintain anything like effective and distinctive Jewish identity.

OK, but if that is the case. Why is it so? How did so many modern Jews lost disinterest in tradition or religious ideals? And is it different than how many Europeans or North Americans from a historically Christian background did the same? What if these ideals simply do not serve some people?

Also, Jewish life is not supposed to be an either/or, black-and-white choice between a robust moral and ethical agenda or sterile and rote repetition of ritual. Meaningful Jewish observance and affiliation (not just with a movement, but with life in Jewish tradition, in the Jewish community) has to come from both moral/ethical and ritual aspects, and has to be both educated and spiritually open. It's like tefillah: it's not a choice between keva and kavanah, both are necessary, or the whole enterprise won't work.

I agree that an ideal individual and cultural frame of motivation, ethics, and full meaningful traditions can be wonderful and inspiring... but has it ever been so in reality? People always have to make compromises or sacrifices. Some people find a middle path which works for them, some go the way of tradition, and some depart from it. I think it is correct for every culture, as it seems so many cultures fail at maintaining the balance.

Also, the issues in Jewish society are not limited to the problems of the left: the problems of the right are equally troubling, and are very different problems. The only practical difference is that the latter erodes Judaism slowly, while the former erodes Judaism quickly.

Not sure I follow you there. Left? Right?

 

[dantech]

But we digress. Intermarriage happens. We can embrace and nurture the spouse or ostracize the Jew. Each approach has far reaching consequences.

Or, secret option number 3: We could teach our kids, and raise them in a way that will teach them to respect the Gentiles, but know to stay away when it comes to marriage. Much like I was brought up.

In an ideal world, all Jews would only marry Jews and would preserve their heritage. You do agree that intermarriage will, and has been cutting off some descendants of Jews from Judaism, don't you?

 

[Caladan]

Or, secret option number 3: We could teach our kids, and raise them in a way that will teach them to respect the Gentiles, but know to stay away when it comes to marriage. Much like I was brought up.

In an ideal world, all Jews would only marry Jews and would preserve their heritage. You do agree that intermarriage will, and has been cutting off some descendants of Jews from Judaism, don't you?

Ideal world for whom? In my ideal world I always imagined I would marry a (non Jewish) European woman, and that's what happened. I didn't want to marry someone who shares my own cultural and political baggage. And of course there's the fact that I didn't want to marry a Jewish princess!
Some Jewish men must be crazy. Having a Jewess as a mother, and then marrying another one?? That's too fatalistic even for me. These are the sort of things that can kill a man. Perhaps a heart attack if he's lucky.

And about cutting off descendants of Judaism. That is really pretty dramatic, considering that many Jews are culturally secular to begin with, so what difference does it make? Are they going to magically reboot into the bosom of Jewish tradition some day? Their children have as much chance doing so as children from intermarriage relationships. Intermarriages have some bonuses as well, children get to share two sets of cultures and backgrounds. It's not like all Jews are going to raise their children to believe in Judaism and its God, but they will most likely instill values which they consider Jewish in them, and their spouse might do the same from their part. I think some members here refuse to face reality. The real issue here is not intermarriage, or parting away from tradition... it is the fact that our traditions do not hold up to the expectations of our generations today.

Looking back at my childhood and growing up, I did adore Jewish heritage strongly. I had a very strong sense of Peoplehood. I felt inspired reading the Bible in its classical language. But I always considered religious observance to be the death of it all in many ways. This is of course my own subjective experience, but it is also the experience of millions like me. We saw ourselves as Jews, as part of a people that we are obligated to contribute to. But the religious level simply did not appeal in this ideology. If anything religion seemed as a source of division and separation to many of us.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Or, secret option number 3: We could teach our kids, and raise them in a way that will teach them to respect the Gentiles, but know to stay away when it comes to marriage

How is that approach working?

 

[metis]

I don't claim to know more than him. However, next time he gives you that quote, why don't you ask him about Hishtadlut and see what he says. Ask him about interfaith marriage while you're at it if his opinion is so important to you.

Actually, it was in this context that he mentioned it. Here's a couple of links about him that might interest you:

Welcome to History by Howard

Dr. Cohen's Gospel - Beliefnet.com

 

[metis]

Ideal world for whom? In my ideal world I always imagined I would marry a (non Jewish) European woman, and that's what happened. I didn't want to marry someone who shares my own cultural and political baggage. And of course there's the fact that I didn't want to marry a Jewish princess!
Some Jewish men must be crazy. Having a Jewess as a mother, and then marrying another one?? That's too fatalistic even for me. These are the sort of things that can kill a man. Perhaps a heart attack if he's lucky.

And about cutting off descendants of Judaism. That is really pretty dramatic, considering that many Jews are culturally secular to begin with, so what difference does it make? Are they going to magically reboot into the bosom of Jewish tradition some day? Their children have as much chance doing so as children from intermarriage relationships. Intermarriages have some bonuses as well, children get to share two sets of cultures and backgrounds. It's not like all Jews are going to raise their children to believe in Judaism and its God, but they will most likely instill values which they consider Jewish in them, and their spouse might do the same from their part. I think some members here refuse to face reality. The real issue here is not intermarriage, or parting away from tradition... it is the fact that our traditions do not hold up to the expectations of our generations today.

Looking back at my childhood and growing up, I did adore Jewish heritage strongly. I had a very strong sense of Peoplehood. I felt inspired reading the Bible in its classical language. But I always considered religious observance to be the death of it all in many ways. This is of course my own subjective experience, but it is also the experience of millions like me. We saw ourselves as Jews, as part of a people that we are obligated to contribute to. But the religious level simply did not appeal in this ideology. If anything religion seemed as a source of division and separation to many of us.

First of all, even though the above wasn't addressed to me, thanks for putting in words that I can relate to as well.

Secondly, looking at how you describe yourself near your avatar, are you by chance a devotee of Spinoza?

 

[Caladan]

First of all, even though the above wasn't addressed to me, thanks for putting in words that I can relate to as well.

Secondly, looking at how you describe yourself near your avatar, are you by chance a devotee of Spinoza?

Not necessarily. I'm sure his pantheism is too archaic for me. But he must have been the hipster of the Jewish community of Amsterdam during the 17th century.

 

[metis]

Not necessarily. I'm sure his pantheism is too archaic for me. But he must have been the hipster of the Jewish community of Amsterdam during the 17th century.

Yes, a truly remarkable intellect, who was bad-mouthed then but who has gained quite of respect since. Of course, Einstein saying he believed in "Spinoza's God" certainly helped. As for me, I find his ideas very interesting, but that's as far as I take it.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Sorry if this is not a proper question, but as an outsider I become a bit shocked by the strength of such feelings.

I take it that the worry is that you of the Jewish People have inherited and decided to care for a lot of culture that you deem valuable, and that is gradually forgotten or mishandled by way of mixed marriages?

Most religions have certain tenets that the adherents believe are given by G-d.
G-d told His Jewish People to not marry outside of His Jewish People.
In other words, it's not just a good idea or, conversely, something to be afraid of due to culture or mishandling.
It's a Commandment from G-d - Don't intermarry....

 

[Caladan]

Most religions have certain tenets that the adherents believe are given by G-d.
G-d told His Jewish People to not marry outside of His Jewish People.
In other words, it's not just a good idea or, conversely, something to be afraid of due to culture or mishandling.
It's a Commandment from G-d - Don't intermarry....

So God came down from the mighty heavens and told you so himself?