Pew study and the Rise of ‘Jews of no religion’

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't care, as long as they preserve Jewish national identity.

And I don't care so long as you respect the guidelines of the Judaism DIR and, so far as I can tell, you do not identify your religion as 'Judaism.' The DIR guidelines suggest the you feel free to respectfully ask whatever questions you wish and limit your interventions here to such questions.

 

[dantech]

And there goes the thread ...

I think we pretty much all said what we had to say, didn't we?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I think we pretty much all said what we had to say, didn't we?

Pretty much, except perhaps ...

Shabbat Shalom​

 

[dantech]

Pretty much, except perhaps ...

Shabbat Shalom​

Shabbat Shalom U'Mevorach to all!

 

[Akivah]

I have mixed feeling about both the study and mixed-faith marriages.

Personally, I have trouble fitting into a classification; I'm somewhere between Orthodox and Conservative and usually respond as "just Jewish" when some one asks. But the numbers don't lie, and people are trickling through the movements and eventually out of Judaism all together, and that is extremely saddening. {snip}

As for inter-faith marriages, it is a conundrum for me. I'm in one myself, as a result of conversion, but my wife follows no other religion and helps me to raise our children in a Jewish home. We have people who are in similar situations in our community, and we have homes with two religions being practiced. The only trend I can attest to in my community is that almost all children, regardless of whether their partents are both Jewish or not, are totally uninterested in Judaism and seem to fall into a black hole the morning after their bar/bat mitzvah.

I was raised Reform and my wife was raised Conservative. As adults, we've switched. So now I keep kosher while my wife no longer does so. I attempted to live Jewishly and provide an example for our daughter. However, our daughter cares little for Judaism. At this time, she is dating a xian and I worry about her Jewish future. I find it hard to criticize her since when I was her age, I cared little for Judaism either. I can only pray that she finds her Judaism when she gets older.

Regarding interfaith marriages, there is a lot in my family. In fact, of all of our siblings, only me and my wife have both spouses being Jewish. And the interfaith raising of the children is in line with the typical. That is, when the Jewish spouse is the wife, the kids are raised Jewish. And when the Jewish spouse is the husband, the kids are raised xian. Now that some of these "kids" are just starting their own families, I will see firsthand how many of the next generation will remain Jewish.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Shabbat Shalom U'Mevorach to all!

Gut Shabbos - Shabbat Shalom U'Mevorach!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And to you as well.

 

[Caladan]

I understand that you are restating your position that you do not believe that G-d gave His Jewish People the Torah but - "the irony?"
Could you elucidate on that point?

Although it should be understood from my previous post I'll make it clearer. There is nothing stupendously impressive in Biblical law. Nothing which makes me pause in awe or epiphany. The Bible is not the only document in the ancient Near East or the East in general. Out of curiosity, before you crowned Biblical laws for being so superior, how much of the literature of ancient Egypt for example have you read? How much of the Vedic literature have you read? or Greek philosophy? How many of the ancient codices of the ancient world have you covered?
My impression is not many, since you so arbitrarily champion Biblical laws as just and shrug off the laws of Hammurabi as unjust. Any member here can examine the Biblical text and choose several paragraphs in order to present the entire text as unjust. What you did to the laws of Hammurabi was done to the Bible by passing trolls for years on this forum, to pick and choose or quote mine the text in order to prove how lowly it is.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And the interfaith raising of the children is in line with the typical. That is, when the Jewish spouse is the wife, the kids are raised Jewish. And when the Jewish spouse is the husband, the kids are raised xian.

While I can come up with reasons why this might be typical, I'm struck with the fact that it does not match my experience in my own (admittedly small) Reform congregation, perhaps because Reform Judaism accepts patrilineal descent.

 

[Akivah]

I'm struck with the fact that it does not match my experience in my own (admittedly small) Reform congregation, perhaps because Reform Judaism accepts patrilineal descent.

That's interesting Jayhawker. Please expound further on this and your opinions on it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That's interesting Jayhawker. Please expound further on this and your opinions on it.

I'm not too sure that there's a great deal to say. Let's say that I marry a non-Jew and we have a child. How do we raise her as a Jew if she is literally 'othered' by a system that defines her as wanting? Why would I choose to expose my young child to something like that?

On the other hand, in the Reform movement she is fully Jewish and fully integrated into the synagogue's religious school.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Although it should be understood from my previous post I'll make it clearer. There is nothing stupendously impressive in Biblical law. Nothing which makes me pause in awe or epiphany. The Bible is not the only document in the ancient Near East or the East in general. Out of curiosity, before you crowned Biblical laws for being so superior, how much of the literature of ancient Egypt for example have you read? How much of the Vedic literature have you read? or Greek philosophy? How many of the ancient codices of the ancient world have you covered?
My impression is not many, since you so arbitrarily champion Biblical laws as just and shrug off the laws of Hammurabi as unjust. Any member here can examine the Biblical text and choose several paragraphs in order to present the entire text as unjust. What you did to the laws of Hammurabi was done to the Bible by passing trolls for years on this forum, to pick and choose or quote mine the text in order to prove how lowly it is.

Of course, you are correct.
One can pick and choose any text from anything to make it support a point of view.
It was your caustic sarcasm that engendered my responses. That, your caustic dismissal - I do not understand.
It is very true that I find the Torah; G-d; and G-d's relationship to Jews both unique and awe inspiring. And, singularly a-historical.
No, I do not find the Vedic literature; the Ramayana; the Code of Hammurabi; the Egyptian Book of the Dead; Egyptian history and mythology; the Epic of Gilgamesh; Babylonian or Sumerian history and mythology; Greek literature, philosophy, history, and mythology - all of which I have, indeed, read; or from Zhuangzi to Swedenborg and everything in between, to be comparable at all to the Torah.
IMHO.
However, I suspect (and I could be wrong, of course), that when you are referring to "Biblical laws," you are referring to the Jewish part of what is commonly called the "bible" or the "old testament" and Writings and the Prophets.
If so, that is not what I am referring to when I write about "G-d's Laws" or the Torah.
I am referring to the Jewish Tradition of the Written Torah; the Oral Torah; the Talmud; and all of the accompanying commentaries of the last 3,000 years.
It is That study which makes the Jews; the Torah; and G-d's Laws singularly unique.
This is what I use to compare to other philosophies and religions. And, I am not aware of ANY other philosophy or religion that has been so studied and so developed over the last several thousand years.

 

[Caladan]

Of course, you are correct.
One can pick and choose any text from anything to make it support a point of view.
It was your caustic sarcasm that engendered my responses. That, your caustic dismissal - I do not understand.

I am not dismissing anything. I am applying critical thinking. What good is it for me do idolize any piece of text, any paragraph, without considering its purpose, context, or whether it is relevant to my own existence?
I have probably expressed my appreciation of Biblical literature and other Jewish sources in hundreds of posts during my time on this forum, but at the same time I have never claimed that I take anything at face value. I get to choose my own POV. If other members expect Jews to take any ancient regulations, traditions, or laws the way they are, then they are a bit naive, even out of touch with reality I would say. From that to believe that we dismiss Biblical or Hebrew literature is a stretch. There is an enormous amount of material in the scriptures and extra-biblical literature, it only makes sense that a thinking reader will analyse the text using their own discretion and filters.

It is very true that I find the Torah; G-d; and G-d's relationship to Jews both unique and awe inspiring. And, singularly a-historical.
No, I do not find the Vedic literature; the Ramayana; the Code of Hammurabi; the Egyptian Book of the Dead; Egyptian history and mythology; the Epic of Gilgamesh; Babylonian or Sumerian history and mythology; Greek literature, philosophy, history, and mythology - all of which I have, indeed, read; or from Zhuangzi to Swedenborg and everything in between, to be comparable at all to the Torah.
IMHO.

Egyptian literature goes well beyond the Book of the Dead, there is a consensus among scholars that it inspired some very important parts in our Hebrew Bible for example, in addition the Epic of Gilgamesh is only a piece of Mesopotamian literature which also gave a background for Biblical literature. I may be a Hebrew speaking Jewish man, and the Bible does have a special place in my consciousness and ideology, but I am also a Near Eastern man, and a researcher of Near Eastern civilizations. It is completely unconstructive at least from my POV to isolate the Hebrew scriptures and literature from the regional context and put them on a pedestal.

However, I suspect (and I could be wrong, of course), that when you are referring to "Biblical laws," you are referring to the Jewish part of what is commonly called the "bible" or the "old testament" and Writings and the Prophets.

While some Biblical laws truly have no relevance to life in a modern secular society, I do not dismiss their relevance to the time they were written, perhaps in an ideological sense, not always in a practical sense. In addition I do value the Prophetic writings, perhaps more than many other Biblical moral and ideological parts.

If so, that is not what I am referring to when I write about "G-d's Laws" or the Torah.
I am referring to the Jewish Tradition of the Written Torah; the Oral Torah; the Talmud; and all of the accompanying commentaries of the last 3,000 years.
It is That study which makes the Jews; the Torah; and G-d's Laws singularly unique.
This is what I use to compare to other philosophies and religions. And, I am not aware of ANY other philosophy or religion that has been so studied and so developed over the last several thousand years.

The Talmud has great value for me as a student who wishes to understand rabbinical and the sages perspectives on various issues. But I am of course, not a Talmudic Jew.

 

[Avi1001]

It is completely unconstructive at least from my POV to isolate the Hebrew scriptures and literature from the regional context and put them on a pedestal.

I am sorry, I do not understand this thinking. It is like saying a man having 5 children should not love any specific one unless he compares them to the rest.

If an OJ loves Torah and Talmud, you should understand and respect that love.

Oh, and my kids are the best in the world .

 

[Caladan]

If an OJ loves Torah and Talmud, you should understand and respect that love.

But if I choose to look at Biblical literature in a larger context, like most scholars that should not be respected?

Oh, and my kids are the best in the world .

It's possible that thousands of years ago there was a Jewish mother, we can even call her an Israelite mother, perhaps she was from the tribe of Ephraim. And she loved her darling scribe son who made her so proud. I do wonder however, if the Israelite mother knew about the Egyptian mother beyond the Sinai peninsula, and all the way around the Nile Delta area, who's son Imhotep designed pyramids with great architectural skills, and her other 5 sons labored for years on building the fine monuments that their brother planned.
Food for thought.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Worth reading is:

Pew Survey About Jewish America Got It All Wrong: With Flawed Comparisons, Study Reached Faulty Conclusions​

 

[metis]

Worth reading is:

Pew Survey About Jewish America Got It All Wrong: With Flawed Comparisons, Study Reached Faulty Conclusions​

Yes, very worthwhile reading, and thanks for posting this.

 

[Akivah]

Yes, thank you for this article. It's nice to see something positive.

 

[metis]

/edited quoted portion/.

OK, so you don't believe in Torah, because that's where Jewish Law is from (See: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) ). And since you don't believe in Torah, you can't logically believe in something called a "messiah". And since you don't believe in a messiah, ...

BTW, this forum is only for those who believe in "Judaism", and Christians have their own site.

 

[Flankerl]

edited out quoted portion.

Good for you.

Now let me give you a hint on the rules.


10. Discuss Individual Religions Forums/Same Faith Debates/"Only Sections"
The DIR subforums are for the express use for discussion by that specific group. They are not to be used for debate by anyone. People of other groups or faiths may post respectful questions to increase their understanding. Questions of a rhetorical or argumentative nature or that counter the beliefs of that DIR are not permitted. DIR areas are not to be used as cover to bash others outside the faith. The DIR forums are strictly moderated and posts are subject to editing or removal.

-For any DIR or discussion sub-forum that is colored blue, non-members of that area are limited only to respectful questions, and are not allowed to make any non-question posts.



Have a nice day