Passionate Desire for the Enlightenment

[katiafish]

I was talking to a friend of mine who is quite fascinating and very wise character, and we come to the topic of an enlightenment. Basically, his reasoning is that to achieve the enlightenment you have to passionately desire it.
As enlightenment happens on all levels of the I am construct, mind, body, consciousness, soul, so the desire for it has to be on all levels, that overwhelming passionate desire for Union, as that is what i think enlightenment is.

I am at this point not entirely sure how I feel about the whole "desire" thing, for me there is a big difference between desire and intent, example, I have a full intent to reach the full Unification and realization in my life time, but I can not say for sure if I Desire it..

So yeah, just interested in your opinion, dearly beloved brothers and sisters, does on need to passionately desire the enlightenment to achieve it? Can desire for it be justified and does it need to be justified?

Thank you!

 

[sandandfoam]

Was it Gibran who said we are defined by our longings?
I think that might be the same thing as your friend is talking about.

 

[no-body]

Most mystical texts state that you must eventually cleanse yourself of this desire to really be enlightened. You go through all the rigorous training and discipline so you can realize that you don't need it all. Somewhat of a paradox.

 

[katiafish]

Well, those two replies are one of the mind, can i have one of the heart from someone?

 

[zenzero]

Friend katia,

Desire even if spiritual is also a desire and any desire creates barrier in our minds. Besides DESIRING or having INTENT is only qualitatively different but remains something for the FUTURE.
Rgds enlightenment.
Do understand that everyone is part of the whole except that the individual is not aware like the musk deer who remains unaware of his quality which everyone else is aware off.
Personally neither is there any desire nor any intent as know that there is nothing as enlightenment. What is, is HERE-NOW; one just needs TO BE ing!
Yes it is a knack like cycling or swimming and being a flow one simply IS.

Love & rgds

 

[Twilight Hue]

I was talking to a friend of mine who is quite fascinating and very wise character, and we come to the topic of an enlightenment. Basically, his reasoning is that to achieve the enlightenment you have to passionately desire it.
As enlightenment happens on all levels of the I am construct, mind, body, consciousness, soul, so the desire for it has to be on all levels, that overwhelming passionate desire for Union, as that is what i think enlightenment is.

I am at this point not entirely sure how I feel about the whole "desire" thing, for me there is a big difference between desire and intent, example, I have a full intent to reach the full Unification and realization in my life time, but I can not say for sure if I Desire it..

So yeah, just interested in your opinion, dearly beloved brothers and sisters, does on need to passionately desire the enlightenment to achieve it? Can desire for it be justified and does it need to be justified?

Thank you!

I understand motivation yet desire is hindering as once you encounter "it" and identify is as such, what happens when disappointment sets in when you suddenly realize enlightenment consistently passes? The natural cessation of desire alleviates this concern of which this becomes noticeably clearer and more understandable while undergoing the "pursuit" of enlightenment.

 

[katiafish]

I am still not sure how I feel about it tbh. If I am being honest with myself, there is a desire for enlightenment in my heart, whilst intellectually i can reason from any "ism" standpoint, including "now-ism", that nothing can be achieved through the desire. But then, may be that is what enlightenment is, No-thing, just Unity

 

[cynic2005]

Most mystical texts state that you must eventually cleanse yourself of this desire to really be enlightened. You go through all the rigorous training and discipline so you can realize that you don't need it all. Somewhat of a paradox.

IMO, its not that you don't need it. What it does is act as a catalyst for enlightenment. Once there, the catalyst is obviously no longer needed because it has served its purpose.

Its the same with all human desires and emotions. A desire such as hunger, motivates you to find food. Once you are filled, you no longer need such a desire, the desire itself has fulfilled its purpose, and is temporarily extinguished.

 

[zenzero]

Friend no-body and cynic,

Agree with both however like to correct that there are nothing mystical as they are stories of experiencing oneness which is always there but the mind cloud mars the event.

Love & rgds

 

[no-body]

experiencing oneness which is always there but the mind cloud mars the event.

Love & rgds

zenzero, I have always had a problem understanding this even though it makes sense deep down. I should start a separate thread on "instant enlightenment" but don't think I would learn anything I don't already know.

Why do some people get enlightened in stages? I suppose it is a mistake to try to understand it intellectually.

 

[zenzero]

Friend no-body,

I have always had a problem understanding this even though it makes sense deep down. I should start a separate thread on "instant enlightenment" but don't think I would learn anything I don't already know. Why do some people get enlightened in stages?

It is not happening that way. Understand that what had meant to convey with:

experiencing oneness which is always there but the mind cloud mars the event.

is that we are all parts of that *whole* except we do not understand and realize IT.
The instant we understand deeply we find the clouds lifting.
Yes after that again the mind is back with its eternal tricks and more clouds keep overing and then the trick is to get back to the earlier frame when the cloud had lifted which is practice and this practice on being connected or merged is to be in a state of no-mind where the mind is unable to penetrate is also a state of meditation.
The mind has been carrying with it all kinds of past histories which we in previous forms have done mostly through our desires and so desires has to be completed or dropped to be totally free and attain buddhahood.

Slow or instant is dependent on one's ability to master the art of being in no-mind.
Once having mastered it one is like the 10th bull of zen:

ZEN

Love & rgds

 

[Onkara]

So yeah, just interested in your opinion, dearly beloved brothers and sisters, does on need to passionately desire the enlightenment to achieve it? Can desire for it be justified and does it need to be justified?

Thank you!

Hello Katia
From the Vedantist perspective correctly focused desire is useful, because for those still searching for enlightnement "desire" is a part of them and can be used best to focus on acheiveing it. Once enlightenment is achieved "desire" changes its affect, so to speak.

Merry Christmas

 

[zenzero]

Friend Onkara,

Once enlightenment is achieved "desire" changes its affect, so to speak.

Could you quote the exact text?
personal understanding is that only on dropping all desires that one is *enlightened*!

Love & rgds

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I was talking to a friend of mine who is quite fascinating and very wise character, and we come to the topic of an enlightenment. Basically, his reasoning is that to achieve the enlightenment you have to passionately desire it.
As enlightenment happens on all levels of the I am construct, mind, body, consciousness, soul, so the desire for it has to be on all levels, that overwhelming passionate desire for Union, as that is what i think enlightenment is.

I am at this point not entirely sure how I feel about the whole "desire" thing, for me there is a big difference between desire and intent, example, I have a full intent to reach the full Unification and realization in my life time, but I can not say for sure if I Desire it..

So yeah, just interested in your opinion, dearly beloved brothers and sisters, does on need to passionately desire the enlightenment to achieve it? Can desire for it be justified and does it need to be justified?

Thank you!

I respectfully disagree. To attain enlightenment, you must not desire it. For once you desire it, it's already become a lust, and will lead to an attachment. You must not even think of enlightenment as something to be attained. The minute you even think you're enlightened, you lost it.

 

[Onkara]

Friend Onkara,

Could you quote the exact text?
personal understanding is that only on dropping all desires that one is *enlightened*!

Love & rgds

Dear Zenzero
I can quote from the text I have to hand, the Bhagavad Gita, in context with my statement above on the position of Vedantists.

The point is drawn from more than one verse, I will attempt to put them together to make the point.

Please keep in mind that I speak from personal understanding, but refer to scripture here as requested, not because "we" need scripture to understand this.

The point comes from the Gunas. Desire is a guna. According to the Bhagavad Gita: 1) The gunas are eternal and 2) The gunas affect everyone with a body, the point being to be free of them i.e. enlightened, by knowing the Self:

- Desire is confirmed as a Guna:
It is desire, it is anger,
That’s born of the rajo-guna:
Of great craving, and of great sin;
Know that to be the enemy.

- The answer - the goal of the Vedas - is to be free from the gunas:
The Vedas deal with the gunas;
Free yourself from them, and be free
From the pairs of opposites, and
Eternally fixed in the self. 2.45


- but due to our nature, having a body, no one is ever free exactly:
No one for even a moment
Exists without doing action;
Each is forced to perform action–
E’en against his will–by gunas.

- As the Gunas i.e. the power of desire, never stop acting on us. We are told that it is knowing that "I am not the doer" which liberates i.e. "frees yourself from them":

All actions, in all instances,
Are done by Prakriti’s gunas;
Those with ego-deluded mind
Imagine: “I am the doer.”

And yet, the man who knows the truth
About the gunas’ actions thinks:
“The gunas act in the gunas,”
And thinking thus is not attached.

The point is that action, including desire remains, because desire is an action of the Guna. Gunas are eternal. Although one is challenged to "destroy desire" in fact the guna cannot be destroyed, it is enternal:

Know Prakriti and Purusha
Are both beginningless; and know
That all modifications and
Gunas are born of Prakriti.

The answer then is more subtle, it is to understand oneself to be that Self, which is beyond the gunas. Thus whilst gunas act, we remain the witness.

But whilst we have a body, live in prakriti, gunas operate on others and the body - our body. The problem comes when we take ourselves to be limited to th mortal body-mind i.e. prarkiti, and not the whole Self. Knowing that we are not the mortal body-mind is liberating, yet gunas, desire, continue eternally as part of prakriti.

 

[YmirGF]

I was talking to a friend of mine who is quite fascinating and very wise character, and we come to the topic of an enlightenment. Basically, his reasoning is that to achieve the enlightenment you have to passionately desire it.
As enlightenment happens on all levels of the I am construct, mind, body, consciousness, soul, so the desire for it has to be on all levels, that overwhelming passionate desire for Union, as that is what i think enlightenment is.

I am at this point not entirely sure how I feel about the whole "desire" thing, for me there is a big difference between desire and intent, example, I have a full intent to reach the full Unification and realization in my life time, but I can not say for sure if I Desire it..

So yeah, just interested in your opinion, dearly beloved brothers and sisters, does on need to passionately desire the enlightenment to achieve it? Can desire for it be justified and does it need to be justified?

Thank you!

Enlightenment speaks to us in whispers, Katia.

I'm going to sleep on it before giving a fuller answer, but I saw this earlier tonight and thought it might be helpful.
I like the passion angle your friend was trying to elucidate... but there is a bit more...

[youtube]cAu3a7CMA84[/youtube]
YouTube - Barbra Streisand - Somewhere

 

[zenzero]

Friend Onkara,

Evolution is eternal the form is not a body with a soul in it. It is soul-body. When ice melts it turns to water and water evaporates to vapour likewise body is the gross and souls the subtle. Gautama's assertion of no permanent individual soul is that aspect that everything is the whole and the form is just illusion which your post is discussing.
If one's mind wishes to be attached with that which is temporary subject to change is always welcome as every form too exists in time and space and TRUTH is ETERNAL without a second.

Love & rgds

 

[A-ManESL]

All people who are enlightened are not enlightened the same way depending on their situation, personalities etc. Some have to be prepared for becoming enlightened, by passing through various stages and qualifying so as to speak. Some bypass many stages to become enlightened because there nature is such. (Just like some work hard to become an artist while some have an inborn talent). It all depends on the person's inner receptiveness for receiving the Truth in the form he/she is seeking. Inner passion which the OP is referring to acts as a catalyst in many cases, but is certainly not a prerequisite for getting enlightened.

Regards

 

[zenzero]

Friend A-ManESL,

What needs to be understood that its like mercury which when falls will break into so many pieces of itself or like forms which appear separated but when again put next to each other they are one.
Like wise prefer using the label *whole* as names of all kinds have divided human consciousness. The whole divided itself into two and out of which many appeared but in reality it is just one *whole*. Two is what the mind perceives and mind has its own background [prism] through which it perceives and so each individual form perceives in its own unique way.
Are they wrong?
No, no one is wrong since there is no divided individuals but in reality all out of that same one *whole* but appears different and *THINKS* differently as the MIND makes the form think so. Just by stilling the mind is like that piece of mercury merging with the *whole* as there is a natural affinity for mercury to merge with each other.

Inner/outer are all mind created matters or mind matters and mind always sees things either in the past or the future but never in the present, never in the HERE-NOW.

By allowing mind to enter individuals will remain separated individuals with past and future and will be in its time/space zone on the other hand being HERE-NOW cuts across all time/space zones to directly merge with that *whole*.

Love & rgds

 

[A-ManESL]

Friend zenzero,

Mind making the form think that individuals are divided is yet another aspect of the whole. So even that is not wrong.

Regards.