Origins of Christianity: Is it the "White Man's Religion"...?

[Ingledsva]

Just one problem with that - they gave his name - and said he was stationed there at the time - then transferred to Germany.


His Name and Gravestone were found in Germany in 1859, - and he was originally stationed there - at the right time - before being transferred to Germany.

So? Him being a real person doesn't make it true. I already know about this, anyway.

But it does make it a good possibility.

And for me it actually gives him more credibility, and reality -

Because, in the Sacred Sex tradition, - since the male is enacting God, - with a resulting birth of a male, - the child is considered a Son of God.

I've written about this idea here before.


Basically - the idea that the people reeling under the Roman Yoke, and yearning for the awaited Messiah - may have decided to use their Old religious practice - of Sacred Sex - to bring him about, - by finding a perfect Virgin - and a perfect male to represent God -in an attempt to bring to birth - The Messiah - The Son of God.


I would not find such to be a slur in any sense of the word.


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[Saint Frankenstein]

But it does make it a good possibility.

And for me it actually gives him more credibility, and reality -

Because, in the Sacred Sex tradition, - since the male is enacting God, - with a resulting birth of a male, - the child is considered a Son of God.

I've written about this idea here before.


Basically - the idea that the people reeling under the Roman Yoke, and yearning for the awaited Messiah - may have decided to use their Old religious practice - of Sacred Sex - to bring him about, - by finding a perfect Virgin - and a perfect male to represent God -in an attempt to bring to birth - The Messiah - The Son of God.


I would not find such to be a slur in any sense of the word.

That's interesting and I've never thought about it that way, but I'm not going to accept that. What I know about that rumor is that it was basically started as a way to defame Jesus and pretty much call His Mother a **** (sorry, Mary; feels bad just typing that) who had sex outside of wedlock.

 

[s2a]

Ya know, after having read the posts following my own here, I confess my continuing confounded state with self-avowed "Christians" .

Jesus is:

"Whatever you seem Him as..."
"A non-white guy"
"All things to anyone that believes..."

If this were some description of a perpetrator of some alleged crime given by some eyewitness in (say) Brooklyn, any line-up would be a while in the making, and prosecution would likely never occur.

This is the foundation of a religious belief?

 

[LuisDantas]

That's interesting and I've never thought about it that way, but I'm not going to accept that. What I know about that rumor is that it was basically started as a way to defame Jesus and pretty much call His Mother a **** (sorry, Mary; feels bad just typing that) who had sex outside of wedlock.

Granted, I am not a Christian... but it is still my understanding that Christianity's message is supposed to be inclusive in such a way that whether those hypothesis hold any truth or not would make not any difference.

Jesus's love and salvation supposedly do not care for personal merits or virtues, and are explicitly extended to those who are not virtuous, as long as they accept it. Or so I have heard it described, anyway.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Granted, I am not a Christian... but it is still my understanding that Christianity's message is supposed to be inclusive in such a way that whether those hypothesis hold any truth or not would make not any difference.

Jesus's love and salvation supposedly do not care for personal merits or virtues, and are explicitly extended to those who are not virtuous, as long as they accept it. Or so I have heard it described, anyway.

The idea that Jesus was born to a human father runs counter to what the Gospels say. The Gospels say that He was born of a virgin and that God is His literal Father. Furthermore, that hypothesis is saying that Mary is a fornicator and an adulteress, which is deeply to insulting to Christians, and doubly insulting to the majority of Christians since we believe that not only was Mary a virgin while she was pregnant with Christ, but was ever-virgin for her whole life and was also completely sinless for her entire life. So this the Pantera rumor is deeply insulting to us and was it was made up by Jews who sought to discredit Christianity. It is blasphemy.

 

[LuisDantas]

The idea that Jesus was born to a human father runs counter to what the Gospels say. The Gospels say that He was born of a virgin and that God is His literal Father. Furthermore, that hypothesis is saying that Mary is a fornicator and an adulteress, which is deeply to insulting to Christians, and doubly insulting to the majority of Christians since we believe that not only was Mary a virgin while she was pregnant with Christ, but was ever-virgin for her whole life and was also completely sinless for her entire life. So this the Pantera rumor is deeply insulting to us and was it was made up by Jews who sought to discredit Christianity. It is blasphemy.

Fair enough. I suppose it is at that. Although I must insist that Christianity can deal with that without contradicting itself. Easily, even.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Fair enough. I suppose it is at that. Although I must insist that Christianity can deal with that without contradicting itself. Easily, even.

Well, if you throw out the narratives of Christ's birth in the Gospels, I suppose.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well, if you throw out the narratives of Christ's birth in the Gospels, I suppose.

Not my call to make, you're right.

 

[s2a]

The idea that Jesus was born to a human father runs counter to what the Gospels say. The Gospels say that He was born of a virgin and that God is His literal Father. Furthermore, that hypothesis is saying that Mary is a fornicator and an adulteress, which is deeply to insulting to Christians, and doubly insulting to the majority of Christians since we believe that not only was Mary a virgin while she was pregnant with Christ, but was ever-virgin for her whole life and was also completely sinless for her entire life. So this the Pantera rumor is deeply insulting to us and was it was made up by Jews who sought to discredit Christianity. It is blasphemy.

Well, to be fair to self-avowed Christians, the idea of a "virgin-birth" of a Savior did not find it's origins in the Gospels. A few other religions came up with that particular legend beforehand. Kinda unfair to blame the Jews for that.

Or olive oil.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, to be fair to self-avowed Christians, the idea of a "virgin-birth" of a Savior did not find it's origins in the Gospels. A few other religions came up with that particular legend beforehand. Kinda unfair to blame the Jews for that.

Or olive oil.

That's a common thing that people like to say but it's actually not true. The myths of other religions didn't have it the same and they didn't have the same definition of a virgin, either. When you actually look at the details of the other myths, they're really different from what Christianity teaches about Christ. Then there's actually cases of religions actually taking aspects of Christian teachings and applying it to their deity.

Besides, the Virgin Birth was prophesied in the Old Testament.

 

[LuisDantas]

That's a common thing that people like to say but it's actually not true. The myths of other religions didn't have it the same and they didn't have the same definition of a virgin, either. When you actually look at the details of the other myths, they're really different from what Christianity teaches about Christ. Then there's actually cases of religions actually taking aspects of Christian teachings and applying it to their deity.

Besides, the Virgin Birth was prophesied in the Old Testament.

That is arguable at best. Particularly this last statement.

The one alleged reference to the Virgin Birth in the Old Testament is in Isaiah 7:14, and the hebrew word "almah" used there is widely regarded as usually meaning "woman of fertile age" rather than "virgin".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That is arguable at best. Particularly this last statement.

The one alleged reference to the Virgin Birth in the Old Testament is in Isaiah 7:14, and the hebrew word "almah" used there is widely regarded as usually meaning "woman of fertile age" rather than "virgin".

Take that up with the Jews who translated the Septuagint, the traditional Greek Old Testament, which dates back to the 2nd century BC and is the version quoted in the New Testament. They used "parthenos", which means "virgin".

 

[CynthiaCypher]

How does all this controversy about Christ's birth fit into the topic at hand? Is the faith and teachings of Jesus a "white man's religion"? Jesus reached out to both Jews and Gentiles, it is taught by his apostles that there are no issues of race in Christ. That all are equal before God. If anything I think that the Europeans who adopted Christianity have largely perverted and failed the message of Jesus to their shame. So is Christianity a white heterosexual man's religion? No, they perverted it and they failed it. It doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the poor and the weak and the downtrodden that Christ promised hope and salvation.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

How does all this controversy about Christ's birth fit into the topic at hand? Is the faith and teachings of Jesus a "white man's religion"? Jesus reached out to both Jews and Gentiles, it is taught by his apostles that there are no issues of race in Christ. That all are equal before God. If anything I think that the Europeans who adopted Christianity have largely perverted and failed the message of Jesus to their shame. So is Christianity a white heterosexual man's religion? No, they perverted it and they failed it. It doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the poor and the weak and the downtrodden that Christ promised hope and salvation.

Well said. :clap

 

[Nakosis]

Not all Christians are white.

There are plenty of other concerns about Christianity without the need to bring race into it.

 

[nash8]

But it does make it a good possibility.

And for me it actually gives him more credibility, and reality -

Because, in the Sacred Sex tradition, - since the male is enacting God, - with a resulting birth of a male, - the child is considered a Son of God.

I've written about this idea here before.

Basically - the idea that the people reeling under the Roman Yoke, and yearning for the awaited Messiah - may have decided to use their Old religious practice - of Sacred Sex - to bring him about, - by finding a perfect Virgin - and a perfect male to represent God -in an attempt to bring to birth - The Messiah - The Son of God.

I would not find such to be a slur in any sense of the word.

I have considered this many times, as well as the Roman soldier tidbit, although I have a slightly more grandiose theory behind the identity of ole' Tiberius Pantera. Glad to hear someone else shares in my unique theories. If you don't mind, PM me some more information on the whole Sacred Sex aspect of this, specifically within Judaism if you have information on that.

Granted, I am not a Christian... but it is still my understanding that Christianity's message is supposed to be inclusive in such a way that whether those hypothesis hold any truth or not would make not any difference.

Jesus's love and salvation supposedly do not care for personal merits or virtues, and are explicitly extended to those who are not virtuous, as long as they accept it. Or so I have heard it described, anyway.

The idea that Jesus was born to a human father runs counter to what the Gospels say. The Gospels say that He was born of a virgin and that God is His literal Father. Furthermore, that hypothesis is saying that Mary is a fornicator and an adulteress, which is deeply to insulting to Christians, and doubly insulting to the majority of Christians since we believe that not only was Mary a virgin while she was pregnant with Christ, but was ever-virgin for her whole life and was also completely sinless for her entire life. So this the Pantera rumor is deeply insulting to us and was it was made up by Jews who sought to discredit Christianity. It is blasphemy.

How does all this controversy about Christ's birth fit into the topic at hand? Is the faith and teachings of Jesus a "white man's religion"? Jesus reached out to both Jews and Gentiles, it is taught by his apostles that there are no issues of race in Christ. That all are equal before God. If anything I think that the Europeans who adopted Christianity have largely perverted and failed the message of Jesus to their shame. So is Christianity a white heterosexual man's religion? No, they perverted it and they failed it. It doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the poor and the weak and the downtrodden that Christ promised hope and salvation.

Well said. :clap

St. Frank, read your response to Luis, then read your response to what Cynthia said. Please don't take offense, but in my opinion, you are taking insult on the superficial "dogmas" that, in reality, have no bearing on the core message of Christ, which was so eloquently stated by both Cynthia and Luis. You recognize the TRUE message that Christ taught, I see it in your posts, and YOU feel it in your heart. Be a patron of the faith, rather than a defender of it.

It doesn't matter whether Jesus was an illegitimate child, or whether Mary was a fornicator, or any thing else regarding his life. All that matters was that Christ was a symbol of Love, Hope, and Salvation, especially to those that were not offered these things by society. Jesus loved those that were "sinners", he did not care what people thought of Him, or his mother for that matter, and neither should you. He only cared that he loved people to the full extent of his ability, and that he gave hope to the hopeless.

Taking offense, and more specifically, retaliating against specific groups of people, with regard to any tenant of the faith other than the core message, and, in my opinion, your missing the entire point of the faith itself.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

St. Frank, read your response to Luis, then read your response to what Cynthia said. Please don't take offense, but in my opinion, you are taking insult on the superficial "dogmas" that, in reality, have no bearing on the core message of Christ, which was so eloquently stated by both Cynthia and Luis. You recognize the TRUE message that Christ taught, I see it in your posts, and YOU feel it in your heart. Be a patron of the faith, rather than a defender of it.

It doesn't matter whether Jesus was an illegitimate child, or whether Mary was a fornicator, or any thing else regarding his life. All that matters was that Christ was a symbol of Love, Hope, and Salvation, especially to those that were not offered these things by society. Jesus loved those that were "sinners", he did not care what people thought of Him, or his mother for that matter, and neither should you. He only cared that he loved people to the full extent of his ability, and that he gave hope to the hopeless.

Taking offense, and more specifically, retaliating against specific groups of people, with regard to any tenant of the faith other than the core message, and, in my opinion, your missing the entire point of the faith itself.

Excuse you, but I am a Catholic and the dogma that Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God born to the ever-virgin and ever-sinless Blessed Mother Mary through miraculous events is a cornerstone of our Faith. You cannot brush it aside or downplay it. It is the central Mystery of the Christian religion. It is not some "superficial" aspect and for you to say as much shows that you do not understand traditional Christianity. Our beliefs about Christ aren't based on Him being a "nice guy who did and said good things", but are based on Who He is and what this means for humanity. So we start with the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and God Incarnate and then we move on and put everything else about His life into perspective.

If Jesus was not the literal Son of God, born to the Virgin, the impact of His life is greatly lessened and our theology ceases to make any sense. So don't you dare tell me what I should or should not be offended about when people insult my God and His Holy Mother. To us, this is great blasphemy to say that Christ is the son of an adulterous fornicator.

By the way, Cynthia believes much the same as I do about Christ and His Mother. She was merely pointing out that discussions of Christ's parentage don't have much to do with the conversation on Christianity and "race".

 

[nash8]

And to the OP, do some research on Christianity, and for that matter Judaism. Both have strong ties Ethiopia, which consequently is the birthplace of all humanity, at least from the most current anthropological evidence.

The guy you quoted in the youtube video makes some valid points, I would be lying if said otherwise. However, as with any thing in life, you must discern your truth for yourself. Find what you consider to be "true" Christianity, and if what you find to be true resonates with you as something positive in your life than keep it in your life, if it does not, then remove it from your life.

In my opinion, what we generally see as "Christianity" today, is not what Jesus taught. Jesus accepted the outcasts of society (prostitutes, tax collectors, lepers) with love and open arms. He did not see race, gender, occupation, status, or "sin" as a reason for judging and/or condemning someone.

If you consider these attributes as not worth following a religion, or if you don't see these messages as the core tenants of Christianity then don't follow it. Especially, if it puts you at odds with your Moms, but at the same time don't sacrifice what you hold to be true, even for family.

In all honesty, you don't need Christianity to have love for people. And in my opinion, I wouldn't hold fast to just one religion unless you feel that one religion is right for you. I personally feel that all religions have something to offer so why choose just one. I personally adhere to pretty much all religions you could think of, and I encourage others to do the same. Not only does it give you a lot of perspective, but it also encourages acceptance for other people's beliefs by understanding where they are coming from.

Just my .02 cents.

 

[Ingledsva]

That's interesting and I've never thought about it that way, but I'm not going to accept that. What I know about that rumor is that it was basically started as a way to defame Jesus and pretty much call His Mother a **** (sorry, Mary; feels bad just typing that) who had sex outside of wedlock.

The Qur'an, and other sources tell us Mary was a Temple Woman. (Temple Virgin?)



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[Saint Frankenstein]

The Qur'an, and other sources tell us Mary was a Temple Woman. (Temple Virgin?)

Lol, I don't give a damn about what the Qur'an says about anything.