OK, Let's Do This: Homosexuality

[Draka]

Your post is on a religious site, therefore, viewing this from a Biblical standpoint, what is the reasoning on the fact that God created Man and Woman.....speaking of the "natural way of things", this seems to have been the natural purpose in creating humans. He told them to be fruitful and become many. Certainly this was not possible with 2 of the same sex.

Speaking from a religious standpoint, the Goddess blesses all acts of love and pleasure, for She is love and She gives us the ability to experience pleasure. If two men or two women are in love then it is just as blessed as the love between a man and a woman.

Two can play this game. Now what makes your point and stance any better than mine? Oh, that's right, nothing.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Thank you for the colorful graph.....i had no idea there were other religions.

I am sure you were aware. You just act as if Christianity stands alone in the distribution of ethics.

If we are not using the Bible as a basis for beliefs today then what is the point of this forum?

To discuss, debate and compare religions. (It's at the top of the page.)

Lets just all live our lives on "feeling" and be accountable to no one.

Who is advocating this?

In fact the majority of the world does that now and look how successful our society has been.......(sarcasm)

Again, you seem to believe that Christianity is the sole source of ethics and morality in this world. Do you really believe that without Christianity and/or the Abrahamic God, and the promise of "heaven" for the good, and eternal punishment for the bad, that mankind would have no moral base?

Ethics and morality have changed throughout the ages, and will continue to change as society changes. A simple look at ancient moral codes, such as the Old Testament, shows this.
Do you, as a Christian, follow every moral code and law of the OT?
Of course not. Those laws were set down by priests and judges for a different time, people and circumstance.

It is time to open your eyes and realize that those scribes, priest, and letter writers of thousands of years ago knew very little of biology, geology, cosmology, anthropology, human psychology and physiology, etc...


A simple observation, not meant to represent all believers and non-believers is this.
I once worked for the most crooked, deceitful, two-faced man I had ever known. He was a devout Christian.
I now work for one of the most charitable, fair-minded, and honest men I have met in a long time. He is a proud atheist.

As to the OP, there is nothing unnatural about desire and love between consenting adults.

 

[Matthew78]

I want to post my beliefs about homosexuality. As people read this, bear in mind that I was raised in a fundamentalist household, so my beliefs have evolved as I have learned more about the world around me.

I believe that most of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenered behavior is biological but I'm not quite convinced that all of it is. Let me explain why:

I have met a few people who recall same-sex attraction from a very early age. An old acquaintance of mine, Beth, was such a lady and naturally accepts that she's a lesbian. I believe that she was born gay. The same with a few others. I have met people in person who I believe were definitely born gay. Do I believe it's genetic? I'm not sure. It may be biological without being genetic. It could have something to do with chromosomes and alterations of chromosomes. I'm not an expert and I"m far from being well-read on the subject so I couldn't say for sure.

However, there are some things that puzzle me. When I was growing up, my younger brother, Dan, had a very close buddy Brian. Brian has a sister named Shawna. I knew Shawna in my freshman year of high school and she was a senior and dating a great guy named Rod. In either my sophomore year or junior year of high school, I was shocked and disheartened to learn that Shawna was a lesbian. Her reason? "There are no nice guys left". I considered myself a nice guy (very much still do). I felt horrible. I wish that if there wasn't this darn stimga in some conservative Christian churches (like the one that I was raised in) where it's almost considered scandalous for a man to date an older lady, I could've been the guy to Shawna who could've made a difference.

I have seen a number of these cases. Some woman who was known to date men comes out as a lesbian and her reason? "I'm sick of men!" I even read an advice column where a woman who was "sick of men" decided to start dating women and asked Ann Landers (or Abbey) how to tell her kids. I wished (and still do) that I could have dated her so I could've proven to be the guy who made the difference.

Given these cases, it's understandable how I concluded that homosexuality was a choice growing up. Lesbians were angry and bitter at men, I thought. But they were missing a point. If only they would become Christians, the lord could bring a wonderful man into their lives and they would be happy and content. I was never sure how to explain these cases of lesbians who decide to date women because men are just scum.

In fact, I came to conclude that if this kind of homosexuality was a choice at all, then the problem was with society. There are fewer and fewer nice guys left in society, I concluded, because kindness is being marginalized. Kindness is seen as being for whimps and sissies while aggression, spite, and cruelty are being rewarded in our society. I came to conclude that the problem was with market capitalism. The problem was that market capitalism was based on competition and you couldn't be kind to people in the name of competition. People take advantage of you. If you are kind and gentle, you are marginalized in society as being a weakling.

This is one of the reasons I was driven to socialism, especially "Participatory Economics". I saw it as a wonderful Humanistic alternative to the Social Darwinism of brutally competitive market capitalism favored by people I considered to be disturbing and sick (like Ayn Rand). I believed (and still very much like) the idea of equitable cooperation and mutual aid in society. I thought that if we had a equitable society based on mutual aid and voluntary cooperation, kindness would be the norm and all the jerks in society would disappear because their sickening cruelity would not be tolerated. In capitalism I saw a disgusting pathology; society encouraging people to be cruel and aggressive. Nice people don't get ahead in life. To get ahead you must lie, cheat, steal, and be an complete jerk to people.

I still like the idea of libertarian socialism although I have abandoned it, regretfully. I haven't embraced capitalism again. I would rather be tortured in a death camp than believe that kindness is for the weak, that "nice guys finish last" and deserve to, and that hate, cruelty, and aggression are good. I still want to believe that Shawna would have found a wonderful man if we lived in a Humanist society and that the women I mentioned above would have met gentlemen that they could've spent the rest of their lives with.

Still, I don't know what to make of these lesbians. Is their attraction to women a choice? Are they bisexual but just disgusted with men?

How do we cure this problem of a society where many men act like total jerks to women?

 

[Sunstone]

I like homosexuals. They're decorative.

 

[McBell]

Your post is on a religious site, therefore, viewing this from a Biblical standpoint, what is the reasoning on the fact that God created Man and Woman.....speaking of the "natural way of things", this seems to have been the natural purpose in creating humans. He told them to be fruitful and become many. Certainly this was not possible with 2 of the same sex.

You only need male and female if you want to procreate.
You do not have to have male and female for feelings.

 

[Yanni]

1) Homosexuality is not a choice, according to both neuroscience and the APA. Deal with it.

ETA: Gay Men, Straight Women Have Similar Brains

2) It's not unnatural. It's rampant in the animal kingdom, and whether you like it or not, humans are animals.

3) It's not immoral. It's not comparable to pedophilia, bestiality, or incest. What part of informed consent do you people not understand?

4) No one's shoving it down your throat. Queer pride is a counter-movement with the goal of educating people so they'll stop forcing THEIR "lifestyle choices" down OUR throats. If you'd leave us alone, we'd do the same.

:rainbow1:

And why not perform incest? It's just another relationship of "love." If someone finds his sister drop-dead gorgeous, and she finds him very attractive, then why not go at it? Who's saying that incest is immoral? If it's people, then what right do they have. Everyone is entitled to their interpretations. But if it's God, then He is the "conscience" that tells us that it IS immoral and forbidden. And if it's God, then He is also the One Who forbade homosexuality. We are only human; we'll never understand why God forbids certain things. We just have to obey or suffer the consequences. We were created against our will, and we will eventually die against our will.

 

[McBell]

And why not perform incest? It's just another relationship of "love." If someone finds his sister drop-dead gorgeous, and she finds him very attractive, then why not go at it? Who's saying that incest is immoral? If it's people, then what right do they have. Everyone is entitled to their interpretations. But if it's God, then He is the "conscience" that tells us that it IS immoral and forbidden. And if it's God, then He is also the One Who forbade homosexuality. We are only human; we'll never understand why God forbids certain things. We just have to obey or suffer the consequences. We were created against our will, and we will eventually die against our will.

Why not stay on topic?

 

[Alceste]

I want to post my beliefs about homosexuality. As people read this, bear in mind that I was raised in a fundamentalist household, so my beliefs have evolved as I have learned more about the world around me.

I believe that most of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenered behavior is biological but I'm not quite convinced that all of it is. Let me explain why:

I have met a few people who recall same-sex attraction from a very early age. An old acquaintance of mine, Beth, was such a lady and naturally accepts that she's a lesbian. I believe that she was born gay. The same with a few others. I have met people in person who I believe were definitely born gay. Do I believe it's genetic? I'm not sure. It may be biological without being genetic. It could have something to do with chromosomes and alterations of chromosomes. I'm not an expert and I"m far from being well-read on the subject so I couldn't say for sure.

However, there are some things that puzzle me. When I was growing up, my younger brother, Dan, had a very close buddy Brian. Brian has a sister named Shawna. I knew Shawna in my freshman year of high school and she was a senior and dating a great guy named Rod. In either my sophomore year or junior year of high school, I was shocked and disheartened to learn that Shawna was a lesbian. Her reason? "There are no nice guys left". I considered myself a nice guy (very much still do). I felt horrible. I wish that if there wasn't this darn stimga in some conservative Christian churches (like the one that I was raised in) where it's almost considered scandalous for a man to date an older lady, I could've been the guy to Shawna who could've made a difference.

I have seen a number of these cases. Some woman who was known to date men comes out as a lesbian and her reason? "I'm sick of men!" I even read an advice column where a woman who was "sick of men" decided to start dating women and asked Ann Landers (or Abbey) how to tell her kids. I wished (and still do) that I could have dated her so I could've proven to be the guy who made the difference.

Given these cases, it's understandable how I concluded that homosexuality was a choice growing up. Lesbians were angry and bitter at men, I thought. But they were missing a point. If only they would become Christians, the lord could bring a wonderful man into their lives and they would be happy and content. I was never sure how to explain these cases of lesbians who decide to date women because men are just scum.

In fact, I came to conclude that if this kind of homosexuality was a choice at all, then the problem was with society. There are fewer and fewer nice guys left in society, I concluded, because kindness is being marginalized. Kindness is seen as being for whimps and sissies while aggression, spite, and cruelty are being rewarded in our society. I came to conclude that the problem was with market capitalism. The problem was that market capitalism was based on competition and you couldn't be kind to people in the name of competition. People take advantage of you. If you are kind and gentle, you are marginalized in society as being a weakling.

This is one of the reasons I was driven to socialism, especially "Participatory Economics". I saw it as a wonderful Humanistic alternative to the Social Darwinism of brutally competitive market capitalism favored by people I considered to be disturbing and sick (like Ayn Rand). I believed (and still very much like) the idea of equitable cooperation and mutual aid in society. I thought that if we had a equitable society based on mutual aid and voluntary cooperation, kindness would be the norm and all the jerks in society would disappear because their sickening cruelity would not be tolerated. In capitalism I saw a disgusting pathology; society encouraging people to be cruel and aggressive. Nice people don't get ahead in life. To get ahead you must lie, cheat, steal, and be an complete jerk to people.

I still like the idea of libertarian socialism although I have abandoned it, regretfully. I haven't embraced capitalism again. I would rather be tortured in a death camp than believe that kindness is for the weak, that "nice guys finish last" and deserve to, and that hate, cruelty, and aggression are good. I still want to believe that Shawna would have found a wonderful man if we lived in a Humanist society and that the women I mentioned above would have met gentlemen that they could've spent the rest of their lives with.

Still, I don't know what to make of these lesbians. Is their attraction to women a choice? Are they bisexual but just disgusted with men?

How do we cure this problem of a society where many men act like total jerks to women?

It will help if you think of sexuality (your innate capacity for sexual and romantic attraction) and identification (how you define yourself) as different subjects.

The women you knew were probably innately bisexual - IOW, they had the capacity to form sexual / romantic pair bonds with either men or women. They probably started out their love lives thinking of themselves and identifying themselves to others as heterosexual or bisexual women. As they formed relationships with the men and women they were attracted to, they eventually decided that they preferred relationships with women, so gave up men and began to think of themselves and identify themselves to others as "lesbians".

To put it another way, your potential for attraction to this or that gender is innate. How you define yourself involves some degree of choice. It wouldn't be as necessary to "pick a team" if there were not so much needless controversy and bigotry surrounding homosexuality. Since society ostracizes, persecutes and marginalizes same sex couples, it is natural for women in same sex relationships to react by forming or joining a close-knit community of "lesbians" with its own norms, customs and (counter-)culture. In that type of community, if you don't have your "lesbian" card, you pretty much can't get in.

As someone who gets to hang out with a lot of lesbians (although I don't have a card), let me assure you I don't know any that were "put off men" just because they didn't happen to meet any men who were awesome enough to keep them straight. The general narrative is that they discovered men in general were too much trouble - relationships were easier with other women. Men and women think and behave very differently, which makes communication and intimacy between them a constant effort and headache - one that few women would put up with if they had any practical alternative.

Also, at the risk of sounding crude, as far as sex is concerned, many men don't seem to understand that women don't need penises to be satisfied with their partner, they need orgasms. Lesbians understand, which is why many women who can fall in love with other women often tend to prefer it.

 

[Alceste]

And why not perform incest? It's just another relationship of "love." If someone finds his sister drop-dead gorgeous, and she finds him very attractive, then why not go at it? Who's saying that incest is immoral? If it's people, then what right do they have. Everyone is entitled to their interpretations. But if it's God, then He is the "conscience" that tells us that it IS immoral and forbidden. And if it's God, then He is also the One Who forbade homosexuality. We are only human; we'll never understand why God forbids certain things. We just have to obey or suffer the consequences. We were created against our will, and we will eventually die against our will.

But what does Kwikwilyaqa have to say about it? If we're inviting people's deities to the table, it's only fair to invite them all.

 

[blackout]

And why not perform incest? It's just another relationship of "love." If someone finds his sister drop-dead gorgeous, and she finds him very attractive, then why not go at it? Who's saying that incest is immoral? If it's people, then what right do they have. Everyone is entitled to their interpretations. But if it's God, then He is the "conscience" that tells us that it IS immoral and forbidden. And if it's God, then He is also the One Who forbade homosexuality. We are only human; we'll never understand why God forbids certain things. We just have to obey or suffer the consequences. We were created against our will, and we will eventually die against our will.

Pregnancy from incest presents an immediate danger
(to the potentially concieved child)
There is no such scenario regarding homosexuality.

 

[Acim]

Why not stay on topic?

How about homosexual incest?

 

[blackout]

How about homosexual incest?

Then you are left with either a healthy or unhealthy relationship
that (our) society will not accept or understand.

It would be almost impossible in our society
to be open about such a thing,
the stigma against it would be so strong.

(either straight or homosexual incest)

 

[Acim]

Then you are left with either a healthy or unhealthy relationship
that (our) society will not accept or understand.

It would be almost impossible in our society
to be open about such a thing,
the stigma against it would be so strong.

(either straight or homosexual incest)

I don't get how this is different from "homosexual relationship."

 

[blackout]

I don't get how this is different from "homosexual relationship."

In our society, the strength/level of the stigma/judgementalism/disdain.

People are nasty, and fearful, and intrusive, and exclusionary
and often times not very good at "live and let live".

The degree of ridicule and judgement an openly incestuous couple would face,
dare i say ESPECIALLY a homosexual incestuous relationship
I think would be unbearable and completely destructive to their happiness "in society".

(Could I be wrong about this? )

This, thankfully, is certainly not so for homosexuals at large
(in free countries) anymore.

 

[blackout]

I don't believe in "God Moralities".

I see that we form (or adopt) our own moralities/ethics.
(as a society, and as individuals)

My own common sense says,
if adults are consenting,
living their life,
harming no one else,
there is no problem.

Let them be. Let them be happy, and free.
Don't judge, what you have no involvement in,
and do not know.

 

[Alceste]

I don't get how this is different from "homosexual relationship."

In the vast majority of cases of incest, one party is a victim. IOW, the father is raping his daughters (or sons), or an older brother (or sister) is abusing his or her younger siblings.

It is as different from homosexual relationships as rape is from your relationship with your wife, if you have one - the wife you hope to have, if you don't.

 

[blackout]

In the vast majority of cases of incest, one party is a victim. IOW, the father is raping his daughters (or sons), or an older brother (or sister) is abusing his or her younger siblings.

It is as different from homosexual relationships as rape is from your relationship with your wife, if you have one - the wife you hope to have, if you don't.

Rape is rape of course.

I will say though, that while that wasn't what the incest "comparisons"
were alluding to,
the innane 'comparisons' :sarcastic made to homosexuality on this forum blow my mind.

I've seen just today "drug addict", "beastiality", and "incest"
all DIRECTLY compared to homosexuality,
in hopes of making some kind of case
that it is horrible and awful and disgusting.

I guess why not just throw rape in there too while we're at it.

What does it really matter if none of these things
has anything at all to do with any other of these things.

 

[Alceste]

Rape is rape of course.

I will say though, that while that wasn't what the incest "comparisons"
were alluding to,
the innane 'comparisons' :sarcastic made to homosexuality on this forum blow my mind.

I've seen just today "drug addict", "beastiality", and "incest"
all DIRECTLY compared to homosexuality,
in hopes of making some kind of case
that it is horrible and awful and disgusting.

I guess why not just throw rape in there too while we're at it.

What does it really matter if none of these things
has anything at all to do with any other of these things.

Well that's the trouble isn't it. Some folks have one category called "everything I disapprove of" and have stuck everything from chicken-******* to genocidal war criminals in there, and everything in that category is equal to them. Woe betide the rest of us when one of these folks starts spouting off their opinions on homosexuality if they happen not to lean that way. It's best to remember that these folks are probably not worth talking to.

We normal people can gain some comfort from knowing it is a scientific fact that the more homophobic a person is, the more likely it is they will get aroused watching gay porn.

Know it and pity the offenders. They are struggling against their own natural desires so bravely...

 

[Acim]

In the vast majority of cases of incest, one party is a victim. IOW, the father is raping his daughters (or sons), or an older brother (or sister) is abusing his or her younger siblings.

It is as different from homosexual relationships as rape is from your relationship with your wife, if you have one - the wife you hope to have, if you don't.

Okay, but let's operate under assumption of "consenting adults" please. That is the par for this thread. If it helps your understanding, think of two 30-something siblings of the same gender who wish to engage in sexual relationship.

 

[Acim]

I've seen just today "drug addict", "beastiality", and "incest"
all DIRECTLY compared to homosexuality,
in hopes of making some kind of case
that it is horrible and awful and disgusting.

I'm not comparing it. I'm including it. Like saying this thread can't talk about interracial homosexual partnerships because someone is disgusted by interracial anything.

I feel you are being over sensitive to what is legitimate inclusion within context of the thread. Me, one who is as pro homosexual rights as they come, would not have issue with this, with key stipulation of consenting adults. If you were thinking I meant incest of some other sort, I'll kindly ask you to refrain from that judgment from this point on.