No Sin?

[Azakel]

a manmade invention

So is Sin.

 

[Quath]

I'm not sure if I'm willing to discuss that in this topic. It's another 'why do bad things happen' question. I choose to believe that life is precious, regardless of how it pales in comparison to 'life after death'. If life wasn't important than Christians should just kill themselves after they're 'saved' so they'll get to heaven quicker.

I think it is a very fundamental problem with Christianity. If the afterlife is so great, why have this life? Most answers seem to gloss over this concept. I did hear of a father who killed his family. His belief was that they were all bound for heaven. However, if they started to sin, one may go to hell. So he killed them and asked for forgiveness as he committed suicide. According to his beliefs, he is in heaven with his family. So he got exactly what he wanted. That is the problem with the rules as set up by Christians. It leads to cases like this because there is not a good reason why this life should be lived compared to the afterlife.

This is just another example of this issue. If the life of an embryo were really prescious, then God should have avoided miscarriages. Otherwise he is sending a mixed message.

I think the major argument shouldn't be about the nature of birth, but about man's role in it. Why should man decide who is born and who is not?

Man has to decide who gets medicine; who dies in a war; who suffers from hunger; who gets psychological help; where does medical research money go; and which children get educated. This is just another choice that mankind has to make when dealing with life.

 

[Smoke]

I'm not sure if I'm willing to discuss that in this topic. It's another 'why do bad things happen' question. I choose to believe that life is precious, regardless of how it pales in comparison to 'life after death'. If life wasn't important than Christians should just kill themselves after they're 'saved' so they'll get to heaven quicker.

But Christians often do choose death over life because the afterlife is more important. That's where martyrs come from, and those extreme cases who deny themselves or their loved ones needed medical care for religious reasons.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Life doesn't begin at conception, it continues at conception (unless you think the egg and sperm are dead).

That is an interesting POV. Allthough I'm not sure about the egg, sperm does indeed live.

 

[Aasimar]

From the moment of conception, 46 chromosomes with 30,000 genes combine to determine all your physical characteristics; sex, facial features, body type, colour of hair, eyes and skin. Even more amazingly, intelligence and personality--the way you think and feel--were already in place within your genetic code. At the moment of conception you were essentually and uniquely you!

Okay, so we've established a point, prior to sperm meeting egg, not a human. After a sperm meets and egg, human right? So prior to this point, not evil, after, evil?

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Life doesn't begin at conception, it continues at conception (unless you think the egg and sperm are dead).

At the moment of conception, 46 chromosomes with 30,000 genes combine to determine all your physical characteristics; sex, facial features, body type, colour of hair, eyes and skin. Even more amazingly, intelligence and personality--the way you think and feel--were already in place within your genetic code. At the moment of conception you were essentually and uniquely you!

It is when the sperm and egg meet, when the chromosomes and genes come together, a unique person if formed. Not before.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Okay, so we've established a point, prior to sperm meeting egg, not a human. After a sperm meets and egg, human right? So prior to this point, not evil, after, evil?

I can only share my personal belief on that, and it is just my belief based on scripture. Once a unique individual is formed, the Bible says Adam's sin nature was passed down to all of us, so we have a sinful nature and we do sin. This is why Jesus was conceived not by a man and a woman, but by the Holy Spirit and a woman, making him sinless, although tempted in all points such as we. Romans 5 explains Christian theology on this idea. Here it is beginning at verse 6: (I will try to underline the verses relating to this, although I LOVE verses 9 and 10.)


6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Muffled]

Sorry, now I get it I didn't see that thing about no free will before. that is just trippy, why would God yank our free will. Certainly an unorthodox view and not based on anything i can discern about the nature of the god who created us as free.

It isn't that God has yanked free will but that we relinquish it as another poster has observed. It is not a question of being robots. God isn't going to alter our choice of whether to plant tomatoes or carrots. The choice to sin will be removed and everything will be as it should be. For those who love murder and other sins there is no place in the Kingdom of God. For those who love what is good, the loss of the choice to sin is a godsend (blessing). The thing that is lost that is most often missed is the ability to have children. If we decide we want to return to having children again we bring back those who love evil and the world returns to the way it is now.

Did God create us free to sin? Was sin a gift from God?

I don't believe so.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You know we are often hypocritical in our judgement. If one ceramic statue falls on another and breaks it we don't condemn it, if a TV fall and crushes the remote we don't say the TV was immoral even though it is more complex than the statue, but for some reason if a person kills another persons baby they are "bad". Who are we to judge after all we are a complex bunch of atoms like the TV is, if our atoms were arrranged to produce the same chemical reaction as the murderer we would not be any better. What we really need to do is find mind altering chemicals and use science to make people feel happy all the time. We also need to learn to do repairs and keep reactions going so we can live forever. amen

You are aware, are you not, of the story in the Old Testament when the Ark was captured by the Philistines? It was placed in the Temple of Dagon and the next morning the statue of the Philistine God was laying prostrate before the Ark. After being put back upright by the priests it was found the next mornig prostrate again only this time headless.

Evidently the sins of the statue were not forgiven.

 

[Quath]

At the moment of conception, 46 chromosomes with 30,000 genes combine to determine all your physical characteristics; sex, facial features, body type, colour of hair, eyes and skin. Even more amazingly, intelligence and personality--the way you think and feel--were already in place within your genetic code. At the moment of conception you were essentually and uniquely you!

It is when the sperm and egg meet, when the chromosomes and genes come together, a unique person if formed. Not before.

This is a different statement than "life begins." This is a statement that "mostly unique coding for a human is in place." (Identical twins are not completely identical due to environment.)

But remember that functionally, this newly combined cell functions very much like cancer. It behaves and acts very much like cancer. If it has a "will," it is just to multiply endlessly at this point.

So what is the value of this cell? If it is by potential, then God is a horrible deity for allowing miscarriages since it destroys so much valuable potential. If it is by function, then it appears equivalent to cancer or to any animal fertalized egg, which we do not value that much.

I think what is valuable is it becoming human. As it develops and gains human-like characteristics then we give more and more value to it.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

This is a different statement than "life begins." This is a statement that "mostly unique coding for a human is in place." (Identical twins are not completely identical due to environment.)

But remember that functionally, this newly combined cell functions very much like cancer. It behaves and acts very much like cancer. If it has a "will," it is just to multiply endlessly at this point.

So what is the value of this cell? If it is by potential, then God is a horrible deity for allowing miscarriages since it destroys so much valuable potential. If it is by function, then it appears equivalent to cancer or to any animal fertalized egg, which we do not value that much.

I think what is valuable is it becoming human. As it develops and gains human-like characteristics then we give more and more value to it.

I see what you are saying, but I just don't see it the same way. I concur with the men I quoted that life begins at conception. I cannot view it as a cancer, although I understand the whole "feel like there's an alien inside me" feeling. Scripture says God knew me when I was first formed in the womb (psalm 139). God knows every sparrow that falls and every baby, even days old that is miscarried. I do not blame him for this. It is a result of the Fall under which all of creation groans and suffers. It has to do with free will and will not be like this forever. I simply feel, except for some extreme circumstances, like the mother's life being in danger, it is equivocable with murder. No matter how far developed, whether 5 days, 5 months, 5 years, or 25 or 50 years, this side or the other side of the womb, murder is murder. I know it is easily forgivable by God, I am a testimony to that, but abortion as birth-control is still wrong to me.

 

[Quath]

I concur with the men I quoted that life begins at conception.

It seems you do not literally believe this since you don't believe that the sperm and egg are dead. You appear to mean something about life's potential or determined characteristics.

I cannot view it as a cancer, although I understand the whole "feel like there's an alien inside me" feeling.

I don't want people to think I see a fertalized egg as a cancer. I just see it functioning like a cancer. At some point, its envonment and growth will change to form something more human looking. But if I look functionally at the organism, I tend to judge it more by what it is instead of what it can be. The exception would probably be if we lived in a world where birth rates were very low.

Scripture says God knew me when I was first formed in the womb (psalm 139).

This passage just says that God was involved in your creation. It doesn't quite say what God thinks of abortion or miscarriage (though by reason, God is ok with miscarriage since he designed for it to happen).

I know it is easily forgivable by God, I am a testimony to that, but abortion as birth-control is still wrong to me.

I have noticed that any view you want to have can be supported by the Bible. I think this include pro-life and pro-choice. You are familiar with the pro-life versus.

The pro-choice view can be gained from Leviticus 27:6 (children younger than a month had no monetary value); Numbers 3:15 (children younger than a month was not counted in a census); Ezekiel 37:8-10 (God reanimates dead soldiers who were not alive until their first breath); Genesis 2:7 (Adam becomes alive when he first breathes); Genesis 38:24 (Idraelites burned a pregnant woman and did not consider killing the innocent fetus to be bad); and Exodus 21:22-25 (pregnant woman who lost her child in a fight is a civil matter and not a "life for a life" as if she died). In addition, Ecclesiastes 6:3-5 and Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 tend to argue for quality of life over life itself. A really good write up on this is at Why Abortion is Biblical.

I am not saying you should agree with all of this. I am just trying to make a point that the Bible and Christianity is not very clear on abortion and it is really up to the individual to decide what is right and wrong.

 

[Sonic247]

Wow I'm suprised this one got so many responses, but in regards to the opening post my point was sarcastic. If everything we do is based on chemical reactions (because we evolved from them) then we actually don't really have control. When someone commits a crime it would be based on there own chemistry and how it reacts to the things influencing it from the outside.

 

[Somkid]

Committing a crime is a choice as is drinking and driving, smoking that first cigarette getting married having children or not having children. Believing what you believe is a choice based on superstition, logic, faith or prejudice. We indeed have free will or we would not be having this conversation.

Chemistry has a lot to do with a human beings reactions and in some cases can dictate their actions however that can be over come, I for example (and I can only speak from my experience on this topic) am prone to be violent and have a criminal mind I became a monk to over come this disposition and have never acted out in violence to spite the fact the predisposition is still there and I have never committed a crime but I have pondered it on many occasions. I have re-programed myself in such a way that I am a productive and compassionate human being. Its just like smoking, drinking or doing drugs you can quit it just depends on your desire to overcome.
So, even if your original post was meant to be sarcastic everyone has over come that and brought up valid points.

 

[MaddLlama]

You know we are often hypocritical in our judgement. If one ceramic statue falls on another and breaks it we don't condemn it, if a TV fall and crushes the remote we don't say the TV was immoral even though it is more complex than the statue, but for some reason if a person kills another persons baby they are "bad". Who are we to judge after all we are a complex bunch of atoms like the TV is, if our atoms were arrranged to produce the same chemical reaction as the murderer we would not be any better. What we really need to do is find mind altering chemicals and use science to make people feel happy all the time. We also need to learn to do repairs and keep reactions going so we can live forever. amen

Go out and read the book Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep

 

[kmkemp]

We indeed have free will or we would not be having this conversation.

Care to explain how free will follows from you having a conversation with someone?

 

[Mr. Peanut]

It seems you do not literally believe this since you don't believe that the sperm and egg are dead. You appear to mean something about life's potential or determined characteristics.


I don't want people to think I see a fertalized egg as a cancer. I just see it functioning like a cancer. At some point, its envonment and growth will change to form something more human looking. But if I look functionally at the organism, I tend to judge it more by what it is instead of what it can be. The exception would probably be if we lived in a world where birth rates were very low.


This passage just says that God was involved in your creation. It doesn't quite say what God thinks of abortion or miscarriage (though by reason, God is ok with miscarriage since he designed for it to happen).


I have noticed that any view you want to have can be supported by the Bible. I think this include pro-life and pro-choice. You are familiar with the pro-life versus.

The pro-choice view can be gained from Leviticus 27:6 (children younger than a month had no monetary value); Numbers 3:15 (children younger than a month was not counted in a census); Ezekiel 37:8-10 (God reanimates dead soldiers who were not alive until their first breath); Genesis 2:7 (Adam becomes alive when he first breathes); Genesis 38:24 (Idraelites burned a pregnant woman and did not consider killing the innocent fetus to be bad); and Exodus 21:22-25 (pregnant woman who lost her child in a fight is a civil matter and not a "life for a life" as if she died). In addition, Ecclesiastes 6:3-5 and Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 tend to argue for quality of life over life itself. A really good write up on this is at Why Abortion is Biblical.

I am not saying you should agree with all of this. I am just trying to make a point that the Bible and Christianity is not very clear on abortion and it is really up to the individual to decide what is right and wrong.

I guess anyone can make the Bible say what they want to hear. The fact is that just as God judged the Egyptians who had not permitted hebrew babies to live, so shall he judge any nation who follows suit.

 

[Azakel]

I guess anyone can make the Bible say what they want to hear. The fact is that just as God judged the Egyptians who had not permitted hebrew babies to live, so shall he judge any nation who follows suit.

Which just goes to show that people will believe that some is All Loving when it's not. All Loving would mean that it doesn't kill just because some one messes up.

 

[Muffled]

Which just goes to show that people will believe that some is All Loving when it's not. All Loving would mean that it doesn't kill just because some one messes up.

That is your concept of love. It makes me very glad that you are not running the universe.

Since God is love, He defines what love is not us.

 

[Azakel]

That is your concept of love. It makes me very glad that you are not running the universe.

Since God is love, He defines what love is not us.

If I was running the Universe I wouldn't tell people that they had to do this and that if the want to go to Heaven, but if they don't they burn for ever in Hell Fire.