No more babies being delivered at NY hospital

[Unveiled Artist]

Your link says this:

At least 209,437,152 people or 64% of the population have received at least one dose.

Overall, 178,692,875 people or 54% of the population have been fully vaccinated.

The 83% is the amount of vaccines used.

So the USA is well below the level we need for herd immunity.

It says: In the US, 456,755,755 doses have been distributed so far, with 83% or 380,241,903 of the doses used. They achieved vaccine goals before July 4th but because of the Delta Variant its still not enough.

No one knew there was going to be a errors attack on 9-11. We all know Covid is all around us, and there are ways to limit the spread: mask use and vaccination.

The point is we don't know what will happen whether we go through a traumatic event or catch COVID. So, worrying about whether people will put me at risk is a waste of time and energy. That was my reply with the question you asked me.

It wasn't related to errors of the attack, limiting spread, and mask use.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Oh. Going by RF, provaxxers give medically exempt a pass if they catch COVID but if someone choose not to vaccine, they don't have that same pass or empathy. I don't see a difference in suffering. Once you put a difference it's no longer moral but political.

We still need more testing and more access. People are getting exposed without knowing it and infecting others. I was face to face with clients three days after i was exposed and that evening I started feeling sick. Luckily I did not infect anyone. But I quarantined until I could get a test. But I knew by then that people at the wedding I attended were testing positive.

I always wondered what those infected with the virus have in common. I know I can contract the virus, of course, but I know residents and my friends' friends family that has the virus. Though I did mention about the resident to support my points but it keeps getting censored. Here's the link: Journal entry: Work incident Found out he got COVID... but like other testimonies from vaccinated and unvaccinated, there are associations but CDC is still looking into it (media aside). In general, maybe its because everyone is always in public? I don't know.

But, yeah, if someone get sick quarantining would be the best thing to do. Even if a person is vaccinated, they still should quarantine if they get sick. (New Data on COVID-19 Transmission by Vaccinated Individuals | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health with link to CDC data) So, even vaccinated I'd still be careful.

But Covid is real, and people are actually getting infected in public. Its just that many don't give a **** and think it's just the flu. I never feared Covid but I know I didn't want it. I got vaccinated and wore my masks in public. I just happened to get shot in the back, along with about 60 others, by a Covid assassin. We trusted everyone would respect the event and family/friends. But it just took one selfish guy.

Don't blame the whole unvaccinated population based on your experiences though. Opinions are fine but in general if those opinions from the general vaxed population are motivation for mandates that's the issue.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

One has to wonder when one is forced to comply with something that is supposed to be for his health. Are we next going to be forced to quit eating anything that is deemed unhealthy by the powers that be? Are we going to be forced to get a certain amount of exercise?

Heart disease and cancer aren't infectious.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And I think you're wrong. I'm not "forced" to do what my job requires of me -- I can resign, or I can recognize that by choosing not to do so, I can be dismissed. I do indeed have a choice. Because in the end, even if I'm no longer employed, I did not do what I did not want to do.

I just had to accept the consequence. Exactly if I decided to stick my hand in the fire.

Do you 'want' to do the work your job requires of you?

Force means employers are telling you to do work without your wishes. It's telling you "DO this or leave," no exceptions. There is no agreement in the beginning of work and job description so you know "before" you take the job what is required of you. The two examples don't compare because you're not forced to do something just because you're required to do it. It means doing something against your will. You chose the job and you're aware of the responsibilities involved.

Force and requirement are two different words. The former people force others to do things outside their consent. The latter the person accept responsibilities so they are required to do things "with" their written and/or verbal consent.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

So far, the reasons you claim for the medical staff not wanting to get vaccinated are because they are either conspiracy theorists or that they are for political reasons. I asked how you know these are the reasons? Provide evidence for each staff member please.

Excuse me, but I said nothing of the kind. I have no idea how you are managing to read all that into my posts.

I did say there's a lot of false information on the internet. This is true -- would you care to refute the statement? I do think that many people (and I of course do not know which ones) are making their choices on the basis of that false information. Do you?

Just as you don’t know if or not some or many doctors are flushing a vaccine down the toilet or sink and giving themselves a Covid ID card and just staying quiet for the exact reasons you are doing. They’d know if they said or spoke anything negatively above a vaccine, their careers would be over and they’d be attacked and bashed, character assassinated.

Well look, isn't what you say there, completely without evidence, something of a conspiracy-theorist way of thinking? What would make you suppose that doctors are flushing vaccines? Or faking diagnoses and surgeries? Do you have anything that resembles evidence of such?

The statistics will be whatever who is releasing them want them to be. If you trust in them, that is fine for you or anyone who does.

Well, it does seem pretty clear that over 5,700,000,000 doses of the vaccine have been injected into people's arms so far. That is, for those who can't count that high, a pretty BIG NUMBER. If even tiny percentages of people were being unduly harmed, this would result in actually quite large amounts of evidence to suggest that the vaccines are really harmful and not to be trusted.

Instead, what the data shows is that the vaccinated -- by very large factors -- get less sick, require less hospitalization, and die less often than the unvaccinated. Do you have anything that refutes that? Or do you just have internet rumors?

But then I notice that you say "The statistics will be whatever who is releasing them want them to be. If you trust in them, that is fine for you or anyone who does." Can I assume that you simply distrust everybody? Do you think that is a healthy way to live? Do you imagine, in your wildest dreams, that the human race could survive that? Because I can tell you, as a social species, we could not.

Therefore, I'm going to fall back on the Darwin Awards to predict the general outcome of this pandemic event -- that a lot of people will die and not pass on their genes, and that the rest of the human race will be a little bit more generally healthy and fit for survival as a result.

Oh, and that there will be a measurable shift in the percentages of political support for conservatives versus liberals -- in favour of the latter.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

One has to wonder when one is forced to comply with something that is supposed to be for his health. Are we next going to be forced to quit eating anything that is deemed unhealthy by the powers that be? Are we going to be forced to get a certain amount of exercise?

No, but for good (and selfish) reasons, you might want to do those things on your own. If, of course, you are uninterested in living a long and healthy choice, then you may well also not want to do them. That's up to you, isn't it?

But you do know that all available evidence suggests that there is a very, very strong correlation between lifestyle and life expectancy.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Do you 'want' to do the work your job requires of you?

Force means employers are telling you to do work without your wishes. It's telling you "DO this or leave," no exceptions. There is no agreement in the beginning of work and job description so you know "before" you take the job what is required of you. The two examples don't compare because you're not forced to do something just because you're required to do it. It means doing something against your will. You chose the job and you're aware of the responsibilities involved.

Force and requirement are two different words. The former people force others to do things outside their consent. The latter the person accept responsibilities so they are required to do things "with" their written and/or verbal consent.

Sorry, you are being silly. I don't want to do a whole lot of things I do. I don't want to clean the toilet, for example. I do it because I don't want the consequence of not doing it even more. I don't want to fire people -- I hate firing people -- but I do it because it is what my job requires me to do. And if, in the end, I decide I can't do that, well then I am in the wrong job. And in that case, there are really only two choices -- I resign, or I am fired myself.

You are making an error in supposing that you can be "forced" to do anything. Even under the threat of death, you could still choose death rather than do the thing that you are fundamentally opposed to. Many martyrs throughout history have done so. (Even Abraham was not "forced" to bind Isaac and prepare to kill him. God could, one supposes if there were such a thing, move Abe's limbs to achieve the desired effect, but that would not, then, have been Abraham, would it?)

But "required?" Well, if my job has a number of requirements, then if I cannot -- or worse, will not -- comply with those requirements, then the employer has every right in the world not to compensate me. This is because the compensation is based on the requirement. If I hire a decorator to paint my living room, but he decides that he doesn't like the colour I've chosen and refuses to comply, I have no obligation whatever to pay him.

 

[Alienistic]

Do you have anything that resembles evidence of such?

No. That’s the point. You or I are not omniscient. Yet what is true are that anyone who speaks negatively about a vaccine will be shamed, condemned, likely lose their career.

Excuse me, but I said nothing of the kind. I have no idea how you are managing to read all that into my posts.

Then please elaborate on why you added that this hospital staff are not as smart as you thought they’d be followed with reasons of politics? Then follow up posts with conspiracy stuff and reasoning. This was irrelevant to the thread.

 

[Alienistic]

Can I assume that you simply distrust everybody? Do you think that is a healthy way to live? Do you imagine, in your wildest dreams, that the human race could survive that? Because I can tell you, as a social species, we could not.

There is little for me to trust within human nature, especially those with power. I prefer to be vigilant, cautious, skeptical but that is just me. I live just fine, and let others live also.

Agreed, mankind overall cannot seem to survive or live without trust or blind faith, or some form of illusions. “If” there were a cynical or vile agenda occurring, perhaps it would be best if most remained ignorant to it and simply just kept trusting away. They wouldn’t be able to handle that truth “if” it were so.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry, you are being silly. I don't want to do a whole lot of things I do. I don't want to clean the toilet, for example. I do it because I don't want the consequence of not doing it even more. I don't want to fire people -- I hate firing people -- but I do it because it is what my job requires me to do. And if, in the end, I decide I can't do that, well then I am in the wrong job. And in that case, there are really only two choices -- I resign, or I am fired myself.

You are making an error in supposing that you can be "forced" to do anything. Even under the threat of death, you could still choose death rather than do the thing that you are fundamentally opposed to. Many martyrs throughout history have done so. (Even Abraham was not "forced" to bind Isaac and prepare to kill him. God could, one supposes if there were such a thing, move Abe's limbs to achieve the desired effect, but that would not, then, have been Abraham, would it?)

But "required?" Well, if my job has a number of requirements, then if I cannot -- or worse, will not -- comply with those requirements, then the employer has every right in the world not to compensate me. This is because the compensation is based on the requirement. If I hire a decorator to paint my living room, but he decides that he doesn't like the colour I've chosen and refuses to comply, I have no obligation whatever to pay him.

Simply force means doing something against your will: clean that toilet or else.

Required is doing something with your written/oral consent.

The analogies don't compare.

When I go to work I'm not forced to vacuum the floor and tend to angry customers. I signed up for the job so that's what I'm required to do.

If I did Not sign up for the job and they tell me to do the same thing that's force-they are not giving me a choice and setting consequences if I don't follow through.

When you're required to do something, you already know the consequences before you take on duties that you agreed to. You're not forced. It's a requirement.

If a nurse knew before she worked that she would have to take the COVID vaccine or loose her job, she can choose. However, that is not the case. Because of the emergency context (not just a change of policy) our US government forces and coerce people to get the vaccine (like that nurse) or loose their job. They are forced to comply.

Why would it matter to you if they were forced or required, though?

It's the same result. If people give into pressure they vaccinated. If they accept the terms given to them before getting hired, they vaccinate. I personally don't believe in forced vaccination, but I'm not sure why you would or would not?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

There is little for me to trust within human nature,

Seems pretty sad, to me, since human nature is the only thing you really have to share with everybody around you.

I'm starting to wonder if forums like this don't actually attract people that don't deal well in the real world. I'm certainly seeing evidence suggestive that's true...

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Simply force means doing something against your will: clean that toilet or else.

Required is doing something with your written/oral consent.

The analogies don't compare.

When I go to work I'm not forced to vacuum the floor and tend to angry customers. I signed up for the job so that's what I'm required to do.

If I did Not sign up for the job and they tell me to do the same thing that's force-they are not giving me a choice and setting consequences if I don't follow through.

When you're required to do something, you already know the consequences before you take on duties that you agreed to. You're not forced. It's a requirement.

If a nurse knew before she worked that she would have to take the COVID vaccine or loose her job, she can choose. However, that is not the case. Because of the emergency context (not just a change of policy) our US government forces and coerce people to get the vaccine (like that nurse) or loose their job. They are forced to comply.

Why would it matter to you if they were forced or required, though?

It's the same result. If people give into pressure they vaccinated. If they accept the terms given to them before getting hired, they vaccinate. I personally don't believe in forced vaccination, but I'm not sure why you would or would not?

I'm having a great deal of difficulty understanding exactly what it is you are nit-picking about.

What I keep wondering is why the BIG QUESTION is "how can I best help me, my family, my friends, my community, my nation, my world, survive and go forward?" But maybe that's not a question that matters to you.

It matters to me -- it's why I call myself a humanist.

 

[F1fan]

And one person infected 60? C'mon, get real.
Were you all kissing him?

I take it you have no idea how Covid gets spread.

There was about 100 of us, plus event space staff in a good sized room. Our tables were pretty close. Some danced. We were there for a bit over 3 hours. The Covid virus is exhaled by an infected person and it fills the air. We all we in a closed room for about 3 hours.

Are you suggesting it was a coincidence that 60 people happened to come down with Covid 3-5 days after an event together?

And it can remain dormant without symptoms, so perhaps a lot of you already had it.

At least you acknowledge Covid is real. And that people spread it.

You just made my point.
Getting the vaccine doesn't make anyone safe.

It doesn't make you safe like "moving to Antartica safe". It makes you safe from WORSE conditions if you get infected. Notice the majority in hospitals are unvaccinated. The majority dying are unvaccinated. Sounds to me the vaccine keeps us safe from death.

 

[Alienistic]

Seems pretty sad, to me, since human nature is the only thing you really have to share with everybody around you.

I'm starting to wonder if forums like this don't actually attract people that don't deal well in the real world. I'm certainly seeing evidence suggestive that's true...

I suppose it depends on what one perceives as “human nature.” The human animal-ness of swollen ego’s, condemning and judging many around them, arguing over the stupidest of stuff, the hypocrisies, the thought/mind and politically correct police all over. . isn’t exactly ideal for someone who has outgrown these things I’d have to imagine. Yet they likely would adapt and blend in because they’d likely know they were once these things too so they’d understand these characteristics of humanness in others. Humans are the stupidest of species to me, including myself.

I am sure that forums such as these attract all various types of humanness.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sure did. Have you?

Unvaccinated medical staff have been on the frontlines delivering babies and caring for patients since the start, long before a vaccine and after a vaccine.... so what changed other than a mandate?

Nothing. It's just circumstances exposed their ethical shortcomings. If there hadn't been a pandemic, it might not have happened.

Do you prefer them continuing to do this unvaccinated or prefer them being denied their careers as well as having very short staffed hospitals?

I would prefer they not be there.

Staff shortages are a sunk cost either way: either they quit and create a temporary staffing shortage until new staff can be hired... or they stay employed, bring outbreaks into the hospital, and there are staff shortages because people are in quarantine.

The main difference is that fewer people die with the first option.

They are part of the unvaccinated you refer to in reconsidering your position. The unvaccinated staff would fit your criteria that would not deserve any medical care while without bias themselves have been the ones taking care of delivering babies and treating patients.

That's right.

 

[F1fan]

I'll address the rest later. Biden said he wants near 90% I mentioned and said we are pretty close. We don't know why people are still unvaxed whether it be choice, hesitant, exempt, or lack of resource. We don't know.

Well there's a lot of right wing disinformation that influences conservatives.

Now that there are mandates I think it would reach herd immunity though I wouldn't expect it to take place overnight

We are at a point where we need to get serious or look watch the plane plummet to the ground. If we can't get control of the Covid spread before fall/winter it's going to be a bloodbath. It's bad now, imagine once people are closed in with windows closed.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I suppose it depends on what one perceives as “human nature.” The human animal-ness of swollen ego’s, condemning and judging many around them, arguing over the stupidest of stuff, the hypocrisies, the thought/mind and politically correct police all over. . isn’t exactly ideal for someone who has outgrown these things I’d have to imagine. Yet they likely would adapt and blend in because they’d likely know they were once these things too so they’d understand these characteristics of humanness in others. Humans are the stupidest of species to me, including myself.

I am sure that forums such as these attract all various types of humanness.

Okay, got it. I'm old (not my fault, I didn't get to choose when I was born). I've had some time to look at the world, and me, and others. I've even had time to think about it.

Tell you what --- get back to me when you reach a little more mature age, you know, when everything isn't a threat. That happens to a lot of people in their middle age (40 and on), but a few hold-outs take longer.

 

[F1fan]

I
Oh. Going by RF, provaxxers give medically exempt a pass if they catch COVID but if someone choose not to vaccine, they don't have that same pass or empathy. I don't see a difference in suffering. Once you put a difference it's no longer moral but political.

Vaccinated people are going to have a less severe illness. The vaccine gives the body a head start in destroying the Covid virus. If a person inhales just enough virus that would typically make them sick, but the antibodies destry them before they can start to replicate and make the person sick, they won't get Covid at all.

Being exposed to the virus does not mean a person will get sick. There has to be a certain concentration of virus inhaled for enough virus to survive and use the human body as a host, and then replicate. The more virus that is present the bigger the chance a person will become sick.

But, yeah, if someone get sick quarantining would be the best thing to do. Even if a person is vaccinated, they still should quarantine if they get sick. (New Data on COVID-19 Transmission by Vaccinated Individuals | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health with link to CDC data) So, even vaccinated I'd still be careful.

Right, being vaccinated is just an advantage to fight the virus. It doesn't mean you won't get sick and contagious. There seems a lot of misinformation about how the vaccine works.

Covid can relapse in people as well. It's rare but it can happen.

Don't blame the whole unvaccinated population based on your experiences though. Opinions are fine but in general if those opinions from the general vaxed population are motivation for mandates that's the issue.

I don't blame those with medical conditions who can't safely be vaccinated. They tend to know their life may be in danger if they are careless in public. I do blame those who trust and accept right wing rhetoric and disinformation about vaccination.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is exactly right. I am not forced to be vaccinated -- and the bar I enjoy hanging out in is not forced to accept me as a customer if I'm not. What could be simpler?

Thing is -- I honestly thought that nurses and other healthcare workers would actually know better, and be less motivated by idiotic political notions like a supposed coercion.

I was referring to your comparing being forced to vaccinate of healthcare employees when you're not being forced. You're not being forced, of course, because its something you are required to do but you knew the responsibilities beforehand. This can't compare to healthcare workers because they were given an ultimatum for something they didn't sign up for. While they can get vaccinated to keep their job, being forced and other reasons breaks trust with people they work with (in addition to the pressure of getting vaccinated). It's not a good motivator. People are usually motivated for intrinsic things (civil duty, care for others), not incentives (bonuses), or consequences (loss of job and pay).

Your situation (reading from your post) doesn't compare to healthcare workers. I see this scenario brought up often and thought I'd address the argument not your personal situation.

 

[Wildswanderer]

No, but for good (and selfish) reasons, you might want to do those things on your own. If, of course, you are uninterested in living a long and healthy choice, then you may well also not want to do them. That's up to you, isn't it?

But you do know that all available evidence suggests that there is a very, very strong correlation between lifestyle and life expectancy.

Yes it's up to me. That's the point. My health decisions should be up to me.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I take it you have no idea how Covid gets spread.

There was about 100 of us, plus event space staff in a good sized room. Our tables were pretty close. Some danced. We were there for a bit over 3 hours. The Covid virus is exhaled by an infected person and it fills the air. We all we in a closed room for about 3 hours.

Are you suggesting it was a coincidence that 60 people happened to come down with Covid 3-5 days after an event together?


At least you acknowledge Covid is real. And that people spread it.


It doesn't make you safe like "moving to Antartica safe". It makes you safe from WORSE conditions if you get infected. Notice the majority in hospitals are unvaccinated. The majority dying are unvaccinated. Sounds to me the vaccine keeps us safe from death.

It doesn't even do that. And you just made the point that masks ( unless you weren't wearing them) and social distancing ( unless you weren't truthful about always practicing it) don't keep you safe either.
Why would I not believe covid is real?
My son had it twice. My daughter had it, even though she almost never left her apartment. No big deal in either case.
I know one person who died with it, although it would be a stretch to say he died from it, as he had multiple health issues.
But my 93 year old father also took a turn for the worst after getting vaccinated. I don't see that as coincidence.
He is better but still having issues I don't recall him having before. Maybe some of us have reasons for not trusting the supposedly safe vaccine.