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New Poll: Majority of Americans Support Wall Street Protestors!

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Progressive taxation: Redistribution of wealth. Nuff said.
It occurred to me that many claim that we have effectively regressive taxation. Sure, sure, the federal marginal income tax rates are progressive,
but after figuring in the vagaries & intricacies of various taxing authorities, a plausible argument can be made that it truly is regressive for some.
A flat tax with no deductions could very well be somewhat more progressive than what we currently have, especially if combined with a once-proposed
plan to give a minimum income to all citizens. A simpler code would be nice....let's spend money on BLTs instead of CPAs.
 
Actually, a flat tax would be a radical redistrobution of wealth - upwards. That's why all first world countries already have progressive tax. Try again - not very radical. All developed nations outside the UD have universal health care too, and many have publicly funded post-secondary education. Remember, the article claims these are "radical" leftist ideas. That's false.

They all smack of entitlement and an unwillingness to accept personal responsibility. There are other issues attached to all of these that the left likes to down play or outright missinterpret.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
They all smack of entitlement and an unwillingness to accept personal responsibility. There are other issues attached to all of these that the left likes to down play or outright missinterpret.
Of course, it's been pointed out before....the protesters aren't even at the correct venue. Consider that Washington takes our tax money & hands it over to undeserving
but favored Wall St corporations. Resenting that, Occupiers protest against the recipients of largess instead of the one who actually took our money away from us.
Do they expect the one who perpetrates the misdeeds to be the one to remedy the situation all because they protest & preen in front of someone else?
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Of course, it's been pointed out before....the protesters aren't even at the correct venue. Consider that Washington takes our tax money & hands it over to undeserving
but favored Wall St corporations. Resenting that, Occupiers protest against the recipients of largess instead of the one who actually took our money away from us.
Do they expect the one who perpetrates the misdeeds to be the one to remedy the situation all because they protest & preen in front of someone else?

Honestly, I think that the world may be so complex and interconnected, and people so ignorant, that any meaningful or correctly focused protest is a virtual impossibility.
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Indeed. This just in...

Apparently, the protesters, who are good with redistributing the wealth of the rich are not too keen on having their own wealth plundered. The irony is as amusing as it is instructive. Poor buggers.

Thieves preying on Wall Street protesters - NYPOST

Regardless of what Ayn Rand and others say, taxation is not thievery.

At least, that's the general consensus.

They all smack of entitlement and an unwillingness to accept personal responsibility. There are other issues attached to all of these that the left likes to down play or outright missinterpret.

No, they smack of wanting to prosper instead of having their work benefit the wealthy. This is one of those issues that the right likes to outright misinterpret.

Besides, if people were responsible for themselves instead of to the State and each other, what would the State be responsible for? Itself?

Of course, it's been pointed out before....the protesters aren't even at the correct venue. Consider that Washington takes our tax money & hands it over to undeserving
but favored Wall St corporations. Resenting that, Occupiers protest against the recipients of largess instead of the one who actually took our money away from us.
Do they expect the one who perpetrates the misdeeds to be the one to remedy the situation all because they protest & preen in front of someone else?

You have a point. I think the protesters are inferring that Wall Street was behind the Washington policy. Alternatively, it could be just that Wall Street is more symbolic of the upper class than Washington is.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Regardless of what Ayn Rand and others say, taxation is not thievery.
At least, that's the general consensus.
Among willing victims perhaps.
I see it as necessary thievery...but thievery nonetheless, since it's taken under threat of force against one's will.
But since it is what it is, the thieving should be minimized & the bounty not squandered.

You have a point. I think the protesters are inferring that Wall Street was behind the Washington policy. Alternatively, it could be just that Wall Street is more symbolic of the upper class than Washington is.
This is to let Washington off the hook. Johnson was vexed by anti-war protestors precisely because they went after government.
Occupiers are just whizzing into the wind while politicians (eg, Obama) make hay with their theatrics.
 
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No, they smack of wanting to prosper instead of having their work benefit the wealthy. This is one of those issues that the right likes to outright misinterpret.

Besides, if people were responsible for themselves instead of to the State and each other, what would the State be responsible for? Itself?.

They want the government to take care of everything ,cradle to grave, so they don't have to think for themselves or try to solve their own problems. Just sit around and watch Jersey shore and American idle.


The state can build roads and defend the country. That's all they need to do. They should do what they are told and keep their interference to a bare minimum. Come only when they are called.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Come only when they are called.
Ah, there's the rub. Someone is always calling.
They're too big to fail, they need their student loans forgiven, someone must feed their kids, they can't find the job they want, their new solar panel company
is a great investment...except no one will invest their own money in it, etc, etc. We've become a nation of needy whiners.....present company excepted.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
Ah, there's the rub. Someone is always calling.
They're too big to fail, they need their student loans forgiven, someone must feed their kids, they can't find the job they want, their new solar panel company
is a great investment...except no one will invest their own money in it, etc, etc. We've become a nation of needy whiners.....present company excepted.
KInda makes me wonder if that's their real plan for the $300000 war chest. Instead of what they are claiming it's for.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I find it astonishing how so many of you assume selfishness is the only possible motive anyone could have for social activism. Says more about you than the protesters, frankly.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
I find it astonishing how so many of you assume selfishness is the only possible motive anyone could have for social activism. Says more about you than the protesters, frankly.
:rolleyes:geez someone's a bit touchy today....wait. Today is no different from yesterday with you.

Nevermind.
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Among willing victims perhaps.
I see it as necessary thievery...but thievery nonetheless, since it's taken under threat of force against one's will.
But since it is what it is, the thieving should be minimized & the bounty not squandered.

I can see that, but I don't understand how it's relevant to this particular issue. Are you arguing that progressive taxation is squandering or enlarging thieving?

This is to let Washington off the hook. Johnson was vexed by anti-war protestors precisely because they went after government.
Occupiers are just whizzing into the wind while politicians (eg, Obama) make hay with their theatrics.

Oh, I agree that Washington shouldn't be left off the hook. They have failed in their role as the State, most likely for as long as they have existed. I think the location at Wall Street was largely symbolic as it is associated with "big" capitalism.

They want the government to take care of everything ,cradle to grave, so they don't have to think for themselves or try to solve their own problems. Just sit around and watch Jersey shore and American idle.


The state can build roads and defend the country. That's all they need to do. They should do what they are told and keep their interference to a bare minimum. Come only when they are called.

We take care of the government so it can take care of everyone, including us. We think for ourselves with information provided to us by education, which can only reliably be supplied by the government. We like to pretend we're free and independent, but deep down we know that independence is impossible, so we institutionalize co-dependence.

The State should build roads, defend the country, educate our children, perhaps raise our children, decide who will produce children, eliminate that which is unsafe, purify the water supply, settle our disputes, build our libraries and schools, provide housing, provide us with news (along with a private news system for accountability), distribute resources in an equitable manner, act as the focal point for some people's natural urge to worship something, exterminate threats to the well-being of itself and the People, etc... the list goes on.

The less the State does, the more human people tend to become, and thus the more disordered society becomes, and the less happy most people are. There is sort of a curve, similar to the laffer curve, as to what amount of humanity is best for the well-being of people, and I typically find that we, I, am currently to the right of the apex (is that the right word?) of the curve.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I can see that, but I don't understand how it's relevant to this particular issue. Are you arguing that progressive taxation is squandering or enlarging thieving?
I'm not arguing....just giving my view on the morality of taxation.

Oh, I agree that Washington shouldn't be left off the hook. They have failed in their role as the State, most likely for as long as they have existed. I think the location at Wall Street was largely symbolic as it is associated with "big" capitalism.
I prefer to call it "crony capitalism".

We take care of the government so it can take care of everyone, including us. We think for ourselves with information provided to us by education, which can only reliably be supplied by the government.
Do I detect unquestioned faith in government?
What if the wrong people (eg, Publicans, Libertarians) get in charge?
We like to pretend we're free and independent, but deep down we know that independence is impossible, so we institutionalize co-dependence.
"Deep down", I still have the illusion of independence.
Tis OK for you to have a different illusion.

The State should build roads, defend the country, educate our children, perhaps raise our children, decide who will produce children, eliminate that which is unsafe, purify the water supply, settle our disputes, build our libraries and schools, provide housing, provide us with news (along with a private news system for accountability), distribute resources in an equitable manner, act as the focal point for some people's natural urge to worship something, exterminate threats to the well-being of itself and the People, etc... the list goes on.
Criminy! You're as extreme & bizarre as I am!

he less the State does, the more human people tend to become...
That's a bad thing?
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
I'm not arguing....just giving my view on the morality of taxation.

Spiffy.

I prefer to call it "crony capitalism".

Whatever we call it, it's wrong, and the protesters seem to realize this.

Do I detect unquestioned faith in government?
What if the wrong people (eg, Publicans, Libertarians) get in charge?
"Deep down", I still have the illusion of independence.
Tis OK for you to have a different illusion.

That's why we need to prevent those people from getting into office. Of course the state in real life cannot be perfect, but the private sector is imperfect almost by definition. What if we had more than one school system, each ran for profit, that taught children different things, and then these children tried to interact with each other after they've grown up? Madness.

Criminy! You're as extreme & bizarre as I am!

Only as extreme and bizarre as you? :eek:

That's a bad thing?

From personal experience, both in myself and observing others, having an excess amount of humanity is beneficial to no one. It lowers productivity, causes depression, undermines consistency, and causes personality to proliferate instead of ideology.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
From personal experience, both in myself and observing others, having an excess amount of humanity is beneficial to no one. It lowers productivity, causes depression, undermines consistency, and causes personality to proliferate instead of ideology.

Maybe you should clean your glasses.
 
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