My Religion is the Only Path

[Katzpur]

I’m sure you’ve all figured out by now that the elephant represents God or ultimate Truth. Each was right in a certain sense, since each of them communicated that part of the truth he had comprehended, but none was able describe the elephant as it really was; for all were unable to comprehend the entire form of the elephant. The story warns us to keep that in mind when we talk to other people about religion. We may feel absolutely certain about the truth of our beliefs, and we may be right. Yet our truths may only be a part of it. We may need many overlapping and sometimes seemingly contradictory truths to get the whole picture.

While I've heard the story many times, I have yet to see such a well-written explanation of what it actually means. Most of the time, attempts to explain its meaning have been along the lines of "God is anything you want Him to be and one interpretation is as good as the next." This, of course, isn't a valid explanation at all. The whole point to the story is that we can only know for sure what our own experience tells us is true. If each man had been able to actually see the elephant, he would have realized that while he was right, the others were not wrong. And you are right -- sometimes two truths do appear to be contradictory, when in reality they are not.

 

[s2a]

Just to be an atheistic spoilsport to the "elephant metaphor" (which I have used in slightly differing context/applications beforehand), I would note that another "moral of the story" is at hand.

The "blind villagers" are perhaps those that willingly choose to perceive things from their own narrowed or limited perspectives. They can not discern the totality of the elephant for what it is, because their way of thinking limits their capacity to encompass a broader, more definitive perspective.

As to the metaphorical allusion that the elephant represents "god", in that each "blind villager" may perceive (or touch/be touched by) God differently, and all experience their God in their own way...it is but for the one sighted man to arrive upon the scene and dispel such a notion...in plain observation that the elephant is...just an elephant - being neither divine in nature, nor difficult to discern if one has the capacity to see and reason for oneself - despite the protestations/assertions of the "blind villagers" that what they grasp is a tree, a rope, or whathaveyou.

Now if the elephant was invisible; and left no tracks, scent, or big piles of poop in it's wake...that would be another matter. ;-)

 

[lilithu]

Just to be an atheistic spoilsport to the "elephant metaphor" (which I have used in slightly differing context/applications beforehand), I would note that another "moral of the story" is at hand.

The "blind villagers" are perhaps those that willingly choose to perceive things from their own narrowed or limited perspectives. They can not discern the totality of the elephant for what it is, because their way of thinking limits their capacity to encompass a broader, more definitive perspective.

As to the metaphorical allusion that the elephant represents "god", in that each "blind villager" may perceive (or touch/be touched by) God differently, and all experience their God in their own way...it is but for the one sighted man to arrive upon the scene and dispel such a notion...in plain observation that the elephant is...just an elephant - being neither divine in nature, nor difficult to discern if one has the capacity to see and reason for oneself - despite the protestations/assertions of the "blind villagers" that what they grasp is a tree, a rope, or whathaveyou.

Now if the elephant was invisible; and left no tracks, scent, or big piles of poop in it's wake...that would be another matter. ;-)

So the atheistic spoilsport is saying that he sees the entire elephant while theists' views are distorted by their biases.

 

[may]

Jesus Christ marked out the way to everlasting life. The Son of God: said "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."—Matt. 7:13, 14..........So it seems there is only one narrow road to paradise,even though most are on the wrong road............ the broad one leading to destruction

 

[Sunstone]

Just to be an atheistic spoilsport to the "elephant metaphor" (which I have used in slightly differing context/applications beforehand), I would note that another "moral of the story" is at hand.

The "blind villagers" are perhaps those that willingly choose to perceive things from their own narrowed or limited perspectives. They can not discern the totality of the elephant for what it is, because their way of thinking limits their capacity to encompass a broader, more definitive perspective.

As to the metaphorical allusion that the elephant represents "god", in that each "blind villager" may perceive (or touch/be touched by) God differently, and all experience their God in their own way...it is but for the one sighted man to arrive upon the scene and dispel such a notion...in plain observation that the elephant is...just an elephant - being neither divine in nature, nor difficult to discern if one has the capacity to see and reason for oneself - despite the protestations/assertions of the "blind villagers" that what they grasp is a tree, a rope, or whathaveyou.

Now if the elephant was invisible; and left no tracks, scent, or big piles of poop in it's wake...that would be another matter. ;-)

Are you implying that atheists perceive absolute truth while theists only pereceive relative truth?

 

[Sunstone]

Jesus Christ marked out the way to everlasting life. The Son of God: said "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."—Matt. 7:13, 14..........So it seems there is only one narrow road to paradise,even though most are on the wrong road............ the broad one leading to destruction

May, do you have any non scriptural basis for supposing there is only one path to God?

 

[Ormiston]

I feel blessed to be alive and answered that I am in paradise right now. I'd rather focus on my life than daydream about some exclusive afterlife-resort where none of the "bad" people get to go...probably because I'm not a member.

 

[Darkdale]

I feel blessed to be alive and answered that I am in paradise right now. I'd rather focus on my life than daydream about some exclusive afterlife-resort where none of the "bad" people get to go...probably because I'm not a member.

Me too. Besides, look at the history of Christianity. Do you really want to go to that heaven? Or look at Islam... does that heaven look good? Eternal life is wishful thinking. In the end, even the gods will pass away, the world will end and new worlds will be created.

 

[Ormiston]

Me too. Besides, look at the history of Christianity. Do you really want to go to that heaven? Or look at Islam... does that heaven look good? Eternal life is wishful thinking. In the end, even the gods will pass away, the world will end and new worlds will be created.

Could you imagine an eternity surrounded by nothing but Christians!? It would be just like work without anti-discrimination laws! I'll take Hell, thank you very much.

Anyways, I find the afterlife aspects of religions to be one of the most despicable, leading to seperation and ostricization WHILE WE ARE ALL STILL ALIVE. What lofty claims to suggest that we all start off in the same place but end seperately. The happy truth, in my eyes, is that we are all in this together, like it or not, and we all get the same "Happy Ending": death. On that note, if there happens to be an afterlife I'm pretty sure it will be the same for everyone as well, paradise or no paradise.

 

[Darkdale]

Could you imagine an eternity surrounded by nothing but Christians!? It would be just like work without anti-discrimination laws! I'll take Hell, thank you very much.

Anyways, I find the afterlife aspects of religions to be one of the most despicable, leading to seperation and ostricization WHILE WE ARE ALL STILL ALIVE. What lofty claims to suggest that we all start off in the same place but end seperately. The happy truth, in my eyes, is that we are all in this together, like it or not, and we all get the same "Happy Ending": death. On that note, if there happens to be an afterlife I'm pretty sure it will be the same for everyone as well, paradise or no paradise.

In the old mythological Norse afterlife, everyone still dies in the last battle of Ragnarok... so there is no eternal afterlife of bliss and happiness. Heathens tend to look at nature and realize that there is an end to all things... even us... even the gods (well, almost all the gods, two will remain to await the return of life).

 

[lilithu]

In the old mythological Norse afterlife, everyone still dies in the last battle of Ragnarok... so there is no eternal afterlife of bliss and happiness. Heathens tend to look at nature and realize that there is an end to all things... even us... even the gods (well, almost all the gods, two will remain to await the return of life).

In this way, your views are similar to Hinduism and Buddhism.

Hinduism has many gods with a small "g" who have greater powers than ours but also pass away eventually, and one God with a big "G" that does not undergo samsara. However, I believe (and Gerani or someone else who knows better, please correct me if I'm wrong) that even that God will pass away with the end of this universe and a new one will be born with the beginning of a new universe.

Buddhism says that even the gods are unenlightened (still experience death and rebirth), so why follow the gods? Seek enlightenment instead. (Buddhism does not believe in God with a big "G".)

Which brings me to my question: what is the purpose of following your gods, Darkdale? Please believe that I am not asking with hostility; I really am curious. In Hinduism, one follows the gods because they eventually all lead to God. In Buddhism, one ignores the gods because they don't lead to enlightenment. So I am just wondering why one follows the gods in the heathen tradition. What is your "goal" for lack of a better word?

 

[Darkdale]

In this way, your views are similar to Hinduism and Buddhism.

That is one of the reasons why many anthropologists believe that Hinduism and Ancient Norse religions share a common ancestral origin.

Hinduism has many gods with a small "g" who have greater powers than ours but also pass away eventually, and one God with a big "G" that does not undergo samsara. However, I believe (and Gerani or someone else who knows better, please correct me if I'm wrong) that even that God will pass away with the end of this universe and a new one will be born with the beginning of a new universe.

I believe, according to most Hindu tradition, all their gods will die, even Brahmin. However, in other traditions (I think there are hundreds), Brahmin survives from universe to universe, creating the life and the gods necessary for the time and place.

Buddhism says that even the gods are unenlightened (still experience death and rebirth), so why follow the gods? Seek enlightenment instead. (Buddhism does not believe in God with a big "G".)

Which brings me to my question: what is the purpose of following your gods, Darkdale? Please believe that I am not asking with hostility; I really am curious. In Hinduism, one follows the gods because they eventually all lead to God. In Buddhism, one ignores the gods because they don't lead to enlightenment. So I am just wondering why one follows the gods in the heathen tradition. What is your "goal" for lack of a better word?

First of all, I do not believe in enlightenment (hence, why I never could adopt most eastern systems of religious practice). As to, what my goal is, or why I follow the heathen gods, I have a well prepared answer. My brother an I were discussing this very issue on the phone last night, as he was wondering whether or not I actually take religion seriously, or if I'm "just having fun with it".

As I explained to him, I do not really have much "Faith" in the gods. Meaning, have not convinced myself beyond doubt, through faith, that I know they exist. However, I have read Norse Lore and have studied the Norse gods and I believe that they are the most honest reflection of human experience (more to the point, my own experience). Even the gods are naturalists/materialists. They are not deeply spiritual beings and so, you will find, that heathens do not have deeply spiritual relationships with their gods. Most of the time, when we pray, we pray to our ancestors for wisdom (as they have more of a personal stake in our lives than the gods).

The reason I follow these gods and I follow the heathen tradition, is because of the worldview/philosophy/moral paradigm that was equally applied to the gods and Man. This worldview is not focused upon achieving enlightenment (it prefers to achieve objective, physcial knowledge). It is not focused on figuring out a way to enjoy life after death, but living the life we have now to the fullest, to live with courage and honor, to be self-reliant and to be a moral representative of our families and our communities.

The Heathen Religion is quite materialist, focusing its' "wisdom" on problems that affect things like health, relationships and responsibility. Those who follow the eastern traditions often are seeking enlightenment. We don't believe in that. Those who are following the Middle Eastern traditions are typically seeking Salvation, Redemption and a personal relationship with God. Again, we aren't concerned with these things.

So the Heathen Religion operates under a third kind of religious goal. To Live Well. So why do we need gods at all? Why believe in spirits, or elves, or after lives? I'm sure that some of it is tradition, maybe a little imagination and a decent amount of superstition to boot. And that's that. Did I leave anything out?

 

[lilithu]

The Heathen Religion is quite materialist, focusing its' "wisdom" on problems that affect things like health, relationships and responsibility. Those who follow the eastern traditions often are seeking enlightenment. We don't believe in that. Those who are following the Middle Eastern traditions are typically seeking Salvation, Redemption and a personal relationship with God. Again, we aren't concerned with these things.

So the Heathen Religion operates under a third kind of religious goal. To Live Well. So why do we need gods at all? Why believe in spirits, or elves, or after lives? I'm sure that some of it is tradition, maybe a little imagination and a decent amount of superstition to boot. And that's that. Did I leave anything out?

Excellent answer all around. You are a great spokesman for your faith.

UUs would agree with your emphasis on the here and now. As Henry David Thoreau said as he lay dying and someone asked him if he could glimpse the next world, his last words were "One world at a time."

Just a couple of comments in defense of both the Abrahamic and the Eastern traditions (to argue in favor of the validity of multiple paths). There are branches of both that focus on this world and "living well." Many Jews don't even believe in afterlife. Their focus is on the here and now, and atonement is as much with their community, if not more so, as it is with God. And for some Christians, heaven is right here on earth if we make it so. And in the Mahayana Buddhist tradition, samsara is nirvana. The focus isn't to turn away from this life in favor of nirvana. The focus is to realize that this life is nirvana, again, if we make it so.

 

[FFH]

There are three worlds or heavens:

Telestial world or heaven: Those who accept the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit or Comforter)

Terrestrial world or heaven: Those who accept the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ (Savior, Redeemer)

Celestial world or heaven: Those that accept the Holy Ghost, Jesus Christ and the Father (God our father in the Celestial heaven)

 

[Darkdale]

Just a couple of comments in defense of both the Abrahamic and the Eastern traditions (to argue in favor of the validity of multiple paths). There are branches of both that focus on this world and "living well."

If it were not for this fact, I would feel the need to convince people to leave one religion for another. Because almost every religion offers, to one degree or another, a call to live a better life in the here and now, there is no reason for me to proselytize. The people that will come to Asatru (and religions like it) in the future will be the ones who need nothing more and want nothing less. Just, as I suspect, it is with other religions. My only hope, is that more people will take this life more seriously, on behalf of a better world for all. I think sometimes, some people are drawn so far into mysticism that they no longer recognize the beauty of the world, and they spend all their time seeking an escape. Of course, you look at some of their leaders... Jesus and Muhammad for example, both embraced this world with courage and purpose. I'd have been happy to follow either of them, were I to have agreed with their conclusions.

 

[Quiddity]

I think sometimes, some people are drawn so far into mysticism that they no longer recognize the beauty of the world, and they spend all their time seeking an escape.

So true...and you can find these people in most every faith.

~Victor

 

[lilithu]

There are three worlds or heavens:

Telestial world or heaven: Those who accept the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit or Comforter)

Terrestrial world or heaven: Those who accept the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ (Savior, Redeemer)

Celestial world or heaven: Those that accept the Holy Ghost, Jesus Christ and the Father (God our father in the Celestial heaven)

Interesting hierarchy. According to this, I have a slot at least somewhere in your heavens, tho possibly only a third-rate heaven. What if I do accept that Jesus is savior/redeemer but do not believe that he is the only savior/redeemer? What if I believe that he is only one savior/redeemer out of many?

And, what of those who accept God the Father but not Jesus as savior?

 

[FFH]

Interesting hierarchy. According to this, I have a slot at least somewhere in your heavens, tho possibly only a third-rate heaven. What if I do accept that Jesus is savior/redeemer but do not believe that he is the only savior/redeemer? What if I believe that he is only one savior/redeemer out of many?

And, what of those who accept God the Father but not Jesus as savior?

wow excellent questions.

I hesitate to answer these questions. I definitely have an answer though.

 

[lilithu]

If it were not for this fact, I would feel the need to convince people to leave one religion for another. Because almost every religion offers, to one degree or another, a call to live a better life in the here and now, there is no reason for me to proselytize. The people that will come to Asatru (and religions like it) in the future will be the ones who need nothing more and want nothing less. Just, as I suspect, it is with other religions. My only hope, is that more people will take this life more seriously, on behalf of a better world for all. I think sometimes, some people are drawn so far into mysticism that they no longer recognize the beauty of the world, and they spend all their time seeking an escape. Of course, you look at some of their leaders... Jesus and Muhammad for example, both embraced this world with courage and purpose. I'd have been happy to follow either of them, where I to have agreed with their conclusions.

Another excellent response. Unfortunately, I cannot frubal you successively.

I like the way my senior minister once said it:
We are called to love this world as it is. And we are called to love this world as it should be (ie - the better world we could create if we treated everyone better). And we must love both equally. Too much of the former leads to complacency. Too much of the latter leads to despair and withdrawal.

btw, I loved your earlier comment about praying to ancestors over gods because they had more of a stake in your well-being. As someone of Chinese descent, I can relate to that kind of practical spirituality.

 

[Darkdale]

btw, I loved your earlier comment about praying to ancestors over gods because they had more of a stake in your well-being. As someone of Chinese descent, I can relate to that kind of practical spirituality.

Is that still practiced in Chinese culture?