My Religion is the Only Path

[lilithu]

While I've heard the story many times, I have yet to see such a well-written explanation of what it actually means. Most of the time, attempts to explain its meaning have been along the lines of "God is anything you want Him to be and one interpretation is as good as the next." This, of course, isn't a valid explanation at all. The whole point to the story is that we can only know for sure what our own experience tells us is true. If each man had been able to actually see the elephant, he would have realized that while he was right, the others were not wrong. And you are right -- sometimes two truths do appear to be contradictory, when in reality they are not.

Katzpur, thank you so much for your post! I work part time as a workshop developer and facilitator; we specialize in providing conflict resolution workshops that promote better mutual understanding and respect in the work environment, whether it's based on race, gender, sexual orientation or religious beliefs. The last one being my area of specialization. (That was the reason for my "common misconceptions" threads a while back.) This version of the story is part of the workshop and I am so happy to hear that you like it!

 

[FFH]

Is that still practiced in Chinese culture?

I lived in Japan for almost two years and In almost every house there was a small shrine set up with pictures of ancestors. Food (mostly fruit) was set out and incense was burned for them each day. They prayed to their ancestors daily in this way.

 

[Darkdale]

I lived in Japan for almost two years and In almost every house there was a small shrine set up with pictures of ancestors. Food (mostly fruit) was set out and incense was burned for them each day. They prayed to their ancestors daily in this way.

That's awesome... I didn't know that. I knew that used to be done... but didn't know it was still practiced.

 

[lilithu]

Is that still practiced in Chinese culture?

Yes and no. The rituals associated with ancestral worship are still practiced by some Chinese in Taiwan and Southeast Asia and around the world. I believe that since the mainland communist govt has released restrictions somewhat, it is practiced there as well, but to a far lesser extent. However, if you ask people doing the rituals whether or not they really believe that their offerings are being received by ancestors who will intervene in their lives, I would expect the majority to laugh it off. I think most perform the rituals out of a sense of cultural pride and respect for tradition. My parents performed the rituals when my grandparents died, and they are both atheist/agnostic. And I will perform the rituals when my parents die, out of respect to their memory, having no belief in their continued existence either in Chinese heaven or anywhere else.

But my perspective may be skewed given my nontheistic but immanently pragmatic family. I know the rituals are still performed in some places, and I may be out of line to guess that most who do it no longer believe.

 

[Aqualung]

Interesting hierarchy. According to this, I have a slot at least somewhere in your heavens, tho possibly only a third-rate heaven. What if I do accept that Jesus is savior/redeemer but do not believe that he is the only savior/redeemer? What if I believe that he is only one savior/redeemer out of many?

And, what of those who accept God the Father but not Jesus as savior?

Let me explain it differently for where people go. The celestial are the people who join the true church, follow its commandments (such as "celestial marriage" which is marriage for time and eternity) and endure to the end.

The Terrestial are for the otherwise good people, who got confused by men along the way. They strived to live up to the light they were given.

The Telestial is for the people who didn't even try. They got devieved by men into thinking there was no reason to really try to be good. The only people here will be the people who suffered in hell for the 1000 year reign.

Then there is outer darkness. This is for the devil and his minions, and it is essentially a second spiritual death.

One of the things to remember about this, is the even the tellestial kingdom is way, way, way better than anything you could even imagine here on earth. They're all wonderful gifts for God's children.

 

[FFH]

It's all written in the book of Awesomesauce.

"Save your own ***. No one else can."
-Nifty Laws to Live by, The Book of Awesomesauce.

Oh, how I love it.

Homecooked Superfaith and the Book of Awesomesauce. mmmmmmm sounds like a yummy religion.

I worked at a national pizza chain for 15 years and must have made around 100 pizzas a day, thats 30,000 pizzas a year and 450,000 in 15 years. Almost a half a million pizzas.

 

[Darkdale]

Then there is outer darkness. This is for the devil and his minions, and it is essentially a second spiritual death.

Where do us pagans go?

 

[Aqualung]

Where do us pagans go?

For the good, kind, considerate pagans - the terrestrial. (Some people are living by Christ's standards, even if they don't know they're christ's standards. )

 

[Darkdale]

For the good, kind, considerate pagans - the terrestrial. (Some people are living by Christ's standards, even if they don't know they're christ's standards. )

Well, then I hope I fit into that. Sounds like as good, if not better than what I am actually expecting.

 

[FFH]

Could you imagine an eternity surrounded by nothing but Christians!? It would be just like work without anti-discrimination laws! I'll take Hell, thank you very much.

This is statement really sums it up. We will go to a Heaven or Paradise based upon our beliefs. Why would we want to live with others that do not share the same beliefs. We will go to a Heaven or Paradise based on our individual beliefs upon certain satandards.

All we Christians are saying is that in order to get to God and his World you must accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and Redeemer.

There are definitely other Heavens, Worlds or Paradises other than God's Heaven.

It is not just black and white. There are varying degrees of worlds or heavens in the life after this one.

 

[lilithu]

Let me explain it differently for where people go. The celestial are the people who join the true church, follow its commandments (such as "celestial marriage" which is marriage for time and eternity) and endure to the end.

The Terrestial are for the otherwise good people, who got confused by men along the way. They strived to live up to the light they were given.

The Telestial is for the people who didn't even try. They got devieved by men into thinking there was no reason to really try to be good. The only people here will be the people who suffered in hell for the 1000 year reign.

Ouch, I'll take your word for it that the telestial is better than anything I can imagine because it doesn't sound too nice. Thanks for rewording it, Aqualung, but now I am even more confused. How does this relate to Faith's post? Why would it be said that the people who didn't even try had accepted the Holy Ghost? To me, the Spirit is what informs me of right and wrong, the reason why I try to be good. Granted, I believe that the Spirit is given to everyone, but not everyone chooses to listen. This three-tiered view doesn't seem to hold the Spirit in very high regard. And that's fine if that's the case, I just don't understand.

 

[Aqualung]

Ouch, I'll take your word for it that the telestial is better than anything I can imagine because it doesn't sound too nice. Thanks for rewording it, Aqualung, but now I am even more confused. How does this relate to Faith's post? Why would it be said that the people who didn't even try had accepted the Holy Ghost? To me, the Spirit is what informs me of right and wrong, the reason why I try to be good. Granted, I believe that the Spirit is given to everyone, but not everyone chooses to listen. This three-tiered view doesn't seem to hold the Spirit in very high regard. And that's fine if that's the case, I just don't understand.

It sounds bad?

I don't know how it relates to what faith said - that's why I reworded it. I didn't know exactly what he was trying to say. In the celestial kingdom, you will be in the presence of the father; in the terretial, with the son; and in the telestial, the holy spirit.

I, too, believe that everybody can hear the Holy Spirit but many do not.

Why do you think the three-tiered view does not hold the spirit in high regard?

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

Anyone read Pratchett's "Small Gods"? I liked the afterlife belief of one of the soldier's. That on the whole, and by and large, if a person lived properly, not according to what any priests said, but according to what seemed decent and honest inside, then it would, at the end, more or less, turn out ok.

Honestly that's how I feel. I mean, yes, I'm Jewish, but it's not for the afterlife.

 

[lilithu]

It sounds bad?

Well the telestial kingdom doesn't sound good to me, but I also realize that I don't really understand this system. I recognize that it's all meant to be good.

In the celestial kingdom, you will be in the presence of the father; in the terretial, with the son; and in the telestial, the holy spirit.

Why do you think the three-tiered view does not hold the spirit in high regard?

Because the Holy Spirit is in the bottom kingdom, and because the Holy Spirit's kingdom is full of people who didn't even try to be good.

 

[lilithu]

Anyone read Pratchett's "Small Gods"? I liked the afterlife belief of one of the soldier's. That on the whole, and by and large, if a person lived properly, not according to what any priests said, but according to what seemed decent and honest inside, then it would, at the end, more or less, turn out ok.

I'm reading it now! Thanks to FeathersinHair for turning me on to Pratchett! <waves and blows kisses> She was talking about "Feet of Clay," about golems, and my ears totally perked up. I'll read any bit of speculative fiction on golems and "Feet of Clay" was awesome.

Honestly that's how I feel. I mean, yes, I'm Jewish, but it's not for the afterlife.

Me too. I mean, not the being Jewish part but everything else.

 

[lilithu]

Could you imagine an eternity surrounded by nothing but Christians!? It would be just like work without anti-discrimination laws! I'll take Hell, thank you very much.

Depends on which Christians. It it was nothing but nice Christians, I would be ok, tho I would miss my other friends.

Not that I believe in such a heaven, but my heaven would have Christians, Hindus, Pagans, atheists, etc in it, as long as they were all loving and tolerant towards each other. (Personally, I would get bored if everyone agreed with each other all the time, but neither can I stand the constant fighting.) My hell would be full of people, again from all religious stripes, who kept insisting that each was right and all the others were wrong. Sometimes RF seems like hell to me, but more often like heaven. :162:

Anyways, I find the afterlife aspects of religions to be one of the most despicable, leading to seperation and ostricization WHILE WE ARE ALL STILL ALIVE. What lofty claims to suggest that we all start off in the same place but end seperately. The happy truth, in my eyes, is that we are all in this together, like it or not, and we all get the same "Happy Ending": death. On that note, if there happens to be an afterlife I'm pretty sure it will be the same for everyone as well, paradise or no paradise.

Not that this has any bearing on what actually happens, but woudn't it bother you that some people try really hard to be good and some people are really mean or even sadistic and they still end up in the same place? The Universalist branch of my tradition said that everyone is "saved" no matter what they did - universal salvation - but a lot of people, even UUs, have trouble with that. Some people think that would be unfair. I'm not trying to change you're mind (don't even have a fully formed opinion on this myself); just curious.

This is statement really sums it up. We will go to a Heaven or Paradise based upon our beliefs. Why would we want to live with others that do not share the same beliefs. We will go to a Heaven or Paradise based on our individual beliefs upon certain satandards and beliefs.

All we Christians are saying is that in order to get to God and his World you must accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and Redeemer.

There are definitely other Heavens, Worlds or Paradises other than God's Heaven.

It is not just black and white. There are varying degrees of worlds or heavens in the life after this one.

So we'll be segregated? Well, I guess so. We've already established that UU heaven has to have coffee in it and Mormon heaven can't.

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

So we'll be segregated? Well, I guess so. We've already established that UU heaven has to have coffee in it and Mormon heaven can't.

Can we visit other heavens? Stop by for coffee (or a non-caffeinated beverage of your choice) sort of thing? Anyhow, I like living with others who don't share my beliefs. Who'd I argue with, otherwise?

 

[Aqualung]

Well the telestial kingdom doesn't sound good to me, but I also realize that I don't really understand this system. I recognize that it's all meant to be good.

The reason it sounds bad is that you're stuck in a sort of "class-system" way of thinking. Ghetto vs country club. Studio appartment vs masion. However, they will all three be infinitely better than things are now. And then one will be slightly more infinitely better. But still, that's way good. And without coffee.

 

[Katzpur]

Ouch, I'll take your word for it that the telestial is better than anything I can imagine because it doesn't sound too nice. Thanks for rewording it, Aqualung, but now I am even more confused. How does this relate to Faith's post? Why would it be said that the people who didn't even try had accepted the Holy Ghost? To me, the Spirit is what informs me of right and wrong, the reason why I try to be good. Granted, I believe that the Spirit is given to everyone, but not everyone chooses to listen. This three-tiered view doesn't seem to hold the Spirit in very high regard. And that's fine if that's the case, I just don't understand.

Hi, lilithu.

I'd just like to add one thought to those that my fellow Mormons have already mentioned. A number of a months ago, someone mentioned something in a post that struck me as particularly insightful. I've been thinking all along that it was you. I just don't know whether or not I can explain it accurately enough so that you would be able to recognize it as yours, if I was.

Anyway, it had something to do with the difference in cultures, backgrounds and environments each of us has and how these are so influential in how we see the world around us and especially how we view God and things of a spritual nature. We also each have a unique set of inherent weaknesses and character flaws which may prevent us from seeing things other people pick up on right away.

We don't believe, as most Christians do, that this life is our one and only chance to acknowledge the atonement of Christ or to accept His gospel. We believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is being taught today in the Spirit World and that it will continue to be taught there until everyone has had the same opportunity to accept it. Now, when I say "the same opportunity," I mean that more literally than you may realize, because in the Spirit World, all of the cultural, environmental and genetic barriers we experience here on earth will be removed. The name of Christ's Church will be insignificant at that point. Only the doctrines will exist and the truth of these doctrines will be readily apparent to everyone who is pure in heart and wants to know the truth. What may have appeared to be ludicrous, heretical or anything else to people here and now will make sense. The pieces of the puzzle will all fit very well together. People will be able to see the whole elephant at last. If they still want to call that elephant a gazelle, that's their problem, but most will probably recognize it for what it is.

None of these remarks addresses your questions, though. Since we believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are physically distinct from one another, and since we no not accept the belief that they are "co-equal," it stands to reason that the Father would preside over the highest degree of glory, the Son would preside over the next highest degree of glory, and the Holy Ghost would preside over the lowest degree of glory -- which is still a "degree of glory." We hold the Holy Ghost in high esteem. But we consider God the Father to be "the Highest," or "the Supreme." Even the Son worships Him as His God.

Kathryn

 

[Darkdale]

[/color]
But still, that's way good. And without coffee.

If there ain't no coffee in heaven, I want out!