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MURDER, GENOCIDE, and ATHEISTS.

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
None of which have numbers, strange that... ;)

Maybe they copied from you 4 years ago, in which case you'll easily be able to link to the open-access journals you used to create your average of 80 million.

I won't hold my breath.



I've done that, you ignored it as you seem to want a nice round number that is equally fictitious. This kind of history is more about probabilities, not facts though. You seem unaware of this.

a) Historical numbers are wildly unreliable for numerous reasons (chiefly that they were never supposed to be accurate in the first place), so uncritically accepting historical data is naive (I provided numerous examples, although you actually gave the best example for this when you said the population of India was bigger than the population of the word).
b) 80 million requires the worst level of WW2 slaughter for 4 centuries with minimal population replacement, yet the population and prosperity were growing. Probabilistically, this is extremely unlikely which you would no doubt admit were you not emotionally invested in a random number.

Are you unaware that this is actually evidence?

You could make a case for why 80 million is plausible, but you seem unable to do this or answer extremely simple questions. You could provide your data, so I can point out why it is wrong, but obviously you don't have any.

Anyway, you'll not say anything of value on the above, but seeing as you read a lot of Arxiv, do you agree with these 2 points?

1. Accounts of war casualties are often anecdotal, spreading
via citations, and based on vague estimates, without anyone’s

ability to verify the assessments using period sources. For
instance, the independence war of Algeria has various esti-
mates, some from the French Army, others from the rebels,
and nothing scientifically obtained [19].


So the start point is not "Why shouldn't we believe them?", but "Why should we believe them?"


2. Conflicts, such as the Mongolian Invasions, which we refer
to as “named" conflicts, need to be treated with care from a sta-
tistical point of view. Named conflicts are in fact artificial tags
created by historians to aggregate events that share important
historical, geographical and political characteristics, but that
may have never really existed as a single event.
Under the
portmanteau Mongolian Invasions (or Conquests), historians
collect all conflicts related to the expansion of the Mongol
empire during the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. Another
example is the so-called Hundred-Years’ War in the period
1337-1453. Aggregating all these events necessarily brings to
the creation of very large fictitious conflicts accounting for
hundreds of thousands or million casualties. The fact that, for
historical and historiographical reasons, these events tends to
be more present in antiquity and the Middle Ages could bring
to a naive overestimation of the severity of wars in the past.

Notice that named conflicts like the Mongolian Invasions are
different from those like WW1 or WW2, which naturally also
involved several tens of battles in very different locations, but
which took place in a much shorter time period, with no major
time separation among conflicts.

arxiv.org/pdf/1505.04722.pdf

Considering i compiled (most) of that list in 2010 and used it often on Topix, that is a possibility
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Seriously? You think 'Christianity,' is treated with dignity and respect? From where? ROFL!!

I hope you're having a good day! :)

As for me, I'd rather try to be a part of the solution. This can be done by me reading the OP properly that he was really giving us a kick in the pants for our own good, no matter how harsh it may be. Once you interpret that, well sometimes you just have to let things go because sometimes even not 100% flawless arguments lead to greater good in the long run.

I've misunderstood a little in the past myself regarding this subject. I kind of wish there was a better term than "Progressive indoctrinees!" given I'm a progressive though. But I'm not sure what that name should be.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Cool, you'll have some sources then so we can look at how you got 80 million and see if it is plausible.

I have provided one credcble source stating 100 million.

I am afraid that i wont be searching through 8 year old backups to satisfy you.
 
I have provided one credcble source stating 100 million.

You posted Sikh.net and a source that said the population of India was 600 million and they killed 400 million of them.

Are you saying that Sikh.net is your credible source and you see it as an example of good historical analysis?
 
I’ve noticed an increase in trolls and trolling behaviour in rf

Apparently it's trolling to point out the following...

1. People had no ability to compute large numbers in the past, and historical sources were more likely to be propaganda, hagiography or written for a purpose other than objective history.
2. Historical numbers are significantly overstated and thus shouldn't be taken at face value.
3. Grouping together multiple, unrelated conflicts that span huge time scales to create sensationalist narratives is not good history. Grouping together all European deaths from 1600-2000 would certainly be the 'greatest genocide in history' if some Muslim was naive enough to call them the 'European wars' because they are too arrogant and ignorant to see diversity among the ''ethnics".

Do you have a problem with any of these points?

Strange that you whine about 'hate speech' when people malign 'your group', but find it 'trolling' for people to argue that pinning 'the greatest genocide in history' on another group based on misrepresentation of history is problematic.

Wouldn't you say misrepresenting history to fabricate 'the greatest genocide in history' is hate speech too?
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
Apparently it's trolling to point out the following...

1. People had no ability to compute large numbers in the past, and historical sources were more likely to be propaganda, hagiography or written for a purpose other than objective history.
2. Historical numbers are significantly overstated and thus shouldn't be taken at face value.
3. Grouping together multiple, unrelated conflicts that span huge time scales to create sensationalist narratives is not good history. Grouping together all European deaths from 1600-2000 would certainly be the 'greatest genocide in history' if some Muslim was naive enough to call them the 'European wars' because they are too arrogant and ignorant to see diversity among the ''ethnics".

Do you have a problem with any of these points?

Strange that you whine about 'hate speech' when people malign 'your group', but find it 'trolling' for people to argue that pinning 'the greatest genocide in history' on another group based on misrepresentation of history is problematic.

Wouldn't you say misrepresenting history to fabricate 'the greatest genocide in history' is hate speech too?
Interesting. Do you have autism?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Then why have you been doing it for 20 pages and counting?

I am well aware what you fundagelicals think about secular morality. It's hardly news that you guys don't understand it.
How can you understand something that doesn´t exist ?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
To demonstrate that atheism has no standards of morality, each individual is allowed to determine their own personal morality. You think it is moral to kill hundreds of millions, murder hundreds of millions.

If theism has a defined morality, please share it with me. Not your morality, atheism as a whole.

No, God does not subvert his own commandments, therefore God would not command me to kill you. Any such command could not be from God.










No, God does not subvert his own commandments.
What about the time God commanded Abraham to kill his own son?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Which of the world's institutions indoctrinate Progressivism?

Which don't? :shrug:

Legislation, judicial, news media, entertainment, academia, sports, seminaries, religious denominations,.. i can't really think of ONE human institution that is not steeped in progressive ideology. They promote it constantly, with a steady pounding of propaganda drums, while the bobbleheaded indoctrinees fall in line with submissive obeisance.
That's pretty vague. Could you be more specific? What propaganda?

Seriously? You think 'Christianity,' is treated with dignity and respect? From where? ROFL!
From everywhere. Since the vast majority of the US is actually made up of Christians, then maybe you should ask yourself why you all don't treat each other better then, I guess.

The media? Movies and entertainment? The Great Bastion of Academia, that cranks out hostile, anti-christian indoctrinees every year? The increasing militancy, overt religious bigotry, and constant smears and false narratives that are repeated constantly and loudly in public forums?
Again, this is rather vague. Could you be more specific? Examples?

The media doesn't like atheists and doesn't treat them well at all. They never have. All these bastions of liberal media that you're going on about, CNN, MSNBC, etc. - they don't treat atheists as intelligent human beings and often give all the weight in just about any argument to Christianity.

:rolleyes:

..'gimme a break'.. is right

You didn't explain how the religious majority is being oppressed by the non-religious minority. Also, I asked before, but don't recall seeing a response ... do you have some examples of what you mean by "increasing militancy," "overt religious bigotry," and "constant smears?"
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
What about the time God commanded Abraham to kill his own son?
That was long before the first Covenant, or the second which we are under now.

Most people do not realize that Abraham knew that his son was not going to die.

As they were going to the mountain Abraham told his retainers that he and his son would return.

So, he either expected that God would sort the matter out without the death, or that his son would be resurrected.

The whole point was a test of faith.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
You posted Sikh.net and a source that said the population of India was 600 million and they killed 400 million of them.

Are you saying that Sikh.net is your credible source and you see it as an example of good historical analysis?


Do you have problems reading or is it with comprehension? I wrote "a" credible source.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
That was long before the first Covenant, or the second which we are under now.

Most people do not realize that Abraham knew that his son was not going to die.

As they were going to the mountain Abraham told his retainers that he and his son would return.

So, he either expected that God would sort the matter out without the death, or that his son would be resurrected.

The whole point was a test of faith.
The whole point is that God told someone to kill someone. Something you just said God would never do.
 
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