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Featured MURDER, GENOCIDE, and ATHEISTS.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by shmogie, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    so you wont do it again?
     
  2. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    I make no real guarantees that I won't. But I'll try not to.
     
  3. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Guarantee that if you do I will bite you.
     
  4. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    I understand. I just have to be careful not to deal in absolutes - it's what Sith do according to Star Wars.
     
  5. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    I have nothing personal against you,
    I am, though, appalled by your attitude
    and behaviour. That is a fact.

    I already said what I think of your version
    of "facts". Your adding more bs as in the
    above is not an invitation to discuss facts.
     
    #385 Audie, Jun 20, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  6. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    M
    my version of facts are facts.

    Do you deny that atheist world leaders committed genocide ? Then prove it.

    My attitude and behavior ? Best look in the mirror.
     
  7. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    To demonstrate that atheism has no standards of morality, each individual is allowed to determine their own personal morality. You think it is moral to kill hundreds of millions, murder hundreds of millions.

    If theism has a defined morality, please share it with me. Not your morality, atheism as a whole.

    No, God does not subvert his own commandments, therefore God would not command me to kill you. Any such command could not be from God.










    No, God does not subvert his own commandments.
     
  8. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Ms. Audie, Henceforth I will no longer respond to you. It is totally non productive.

    I have no desire for you to continue to try my patience and attempt to provoke my anger.

    Find another whipping boy and take your nasty biases and uncontrolled emotion there.

    Adieu.
     
  9. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Substitute ATHEISM for THEISM
     
  10. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    I linked to the post earlier. Same numbers, same language, even same punctuation. This strange list seems to pop up in many places online and has some unusual expression and dodgy numbers which is why I recognised it.

    Just a few entries, but there are many more. Reddit (link here) then You (from this post):

    Reddit: Congolese Genocide (King Leopold II): 13,000,000
    You: Congolese Genocide (King Leopold II): 13,000,000

    R: US Western Expansion (Justified by "Manifest Destiny"):20,000,000
    Y: US Western Expansion (Justified by "Manifest Destiny"):20,000,000


    R: Muslim Conquests of India: 80,000,000
    Y: Muslim Conquests of India: 80,000,000

    R: Jewish Diaspora (Not Including the Holocaust): 1,000,000
    Y: Jewish Diaspora (Not Including the Holocaust): 1,000,000

    R: The Holocaust (Jewish and Homosexual Deaths): 6,500,000
    Y: The Holocaust (Jewish and Homosexual Deaths): 6,500,000

    R: Atlantic Slave Trade (Justified by Christianity): 14,000,000
    Y: Atlantic Slave Trade (Justified by Christianity): 14,000,000

    R: AIDS deaths in Africa largely due to opposition to condoms: 30,000,000
    Y: AIDS deaths in Africa largely due to opposition to condoms: 30,000,000

    Either you wrote the post, you copied parts of the post (or a derivative), or you and the poster copy/pasted parts of the same source. If there is another reason, please correct me and I'll apologise. Where did you get these from?

    While I know this will be a complete waste of time...

    You seem to believe accurate figures really do exist somewhere (at least this explains a lot regarding the questions you won't answer). As I've, very unsuccessfully, been trying to point out, they do not exist anywhere for this period.

    This leaves us with 2 possibilities:

    1) Uncritically accept the wildly inaccurate figures people noted down hundreds of years ago
    2) Accept we'll never know accurate numbers, but try our best to apply a critical methodology to historical sources (and understanding that it's much easier to identify what is right, rather than wrong).

    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you think 2 is best.

    We could, for example, compare rates to modern conflicts where we have a reasonable idea of what death at this scale actually looks like. Numbers without context are not analytically helpfully after all.

    “World War II at its worst saw almost 300 battle deaths per 100,000 people per year. S. Pinker, Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress.

    Scale this to a population of 70 million to approximate the population of India = 210,000 deaths per year

    Your 80 million /400 years = 200,000 per year.

    Not sure about you, but of someone told me an entire nation faced 400 years of growth and prosperity where their population was killed at a similar rate to people during the worst industrialised war in history, at its worst, I'd be quite sceptical at accepting these figures without very substantial evidence.

    Not that you'll answer, but wouldn't you agree?

    Maybe you think it was mostly peaceful with a few massive exterminations. In this case we'd probably expect to see some degree of population replacement as outsiders move in to take advantage of high quality, vacant land. Yet:

    We find that the Muslim populations in general are genetically closer to their non-Muslim geographical neighbors than to other Muslims in India, and that there is a highly significant correlation between genetics and geography (but not religion). Our findings indicate that, despite the documented practice of marriage between Muslim men and Hindu women, Islamization in India did not involve large-scale replacement of Hindu Y chromosomes. The Muslim expansion in India was predominantly a cultural change and was not accompanied by significant gene flow, as seen in other places, such as China and Central Asia.
    A Shared Y-chromosomal Heritage between Muslims and Hindus in India https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2590854/

    So to justify your 80 million (which you've never offered even a shred of evidence for), you have to believe a country can be growing and prosperous with a population being exterminated at the rate people during the worst period of WW2 for 4 centuries (coupled, obviously, with mass migration to escape being killed) yet with no significant population replacement via immigration.

    Obviously you won't address this, and you will avoid answering even simple questions regarding your extensive 'research' and 'analysis' by which you determined 80 million to be a "conservative" estimate.

    At least what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence :D
     
  11. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Yet you yourself say that he used to give commands
    such as, say, for you to kill me, tho he has not done it
    lately.

    So what to do in such a paradox...

    Claiming perfect certainty as to know what "god"
    would or would not do next is taking on a lot,
    for a mere mortal.
     
  12. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

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    And there you are wrong, i have repeatedly stated estimasted and that my figures are a median average of several history papers. You are now so obsessed that you are making stuff up to attempt to discredit me.

    And i see you have still not presented any evidence.
     
  13. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Of course they are... ;)

    You obviously didn't copy the following, it's just coincidence that it's identical down to the missing space after the colon.

    R: US Western Expansion (Justified by "Manifest Destiny"):20,000,000
    Y: US Western Expansion (Justified by "Manifest Destiny"):20,000,000


    It's just coincidence that the numbers, expression and punctuation are identical between your 'median average of several history papers' that you never link to and every single entry in a post on Reddit.

    R: Jewish Diaspora (Not Including the Holocaust): 1,000,000
    Y: Jewish Diaspora (Not Including the Holocaust): 1,000,000

    R: The Holocaust (Jewish and Homosexual Deaths): 6,500,000
    Y: The Holocaust (Jewish and Homosexual Deaths): 6,500,000

    R: Atlantic Slave Trade (Justified by Christianity): 14,000,000
    Y: Atlantic Slave Trade (Justified by Christianity): 14,000,000

    R: AIDS deaths in Africa largely due to opposition to condoms: 30,000,000
    Y: AIDS deaths in Africa largely due to opposition to condoms: 30,000,000

    Happens all the time that someone's 'original research' is perfectly identical to something that appears in numerous places on the internet without it being plagiarised :D

    At least we know your numbers came from credulously and uncritically repeating the first thing you found on the internet... ;)
     
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  14. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

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    So what does R and Y mean?
    Let me guess, reddit and you (me)

    If so please point out in my list the precise wording compared to the reddit wording as you indicate.

    And you continue to make the accusation i use the first thing i found on the internet. FYI, i use google scholar and arxiv for my data, the figures averaged from several academic papers. I dont dont use reddit, i never have, the only times google has directed me there it says i must install the app and wont let me continue. No way in hell am i being forced to install an app just to look at a single website.

    Of course you will try and mock this but i dont really give a toss. I know how i derived my estimations, you can only guess

    And you have not once provided evidence to justify your claims so i i am done wasting my time on your obcession .
     
  15. Maximilian

    Maximilian Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.

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    Proud member of the International Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Wittnesses - jw.org
    And it was this apostasy which birthed the RCC. Christ promised at Matthew 13:24–30, 36–43, however, that his disciples would continue to thrive in spite of these.
     
    #395 Maximilian, Jun 20, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
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  16. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    So you don't actually read posts that you reply to? That's good to know.

    Yes R = reddit chap and Y = you. That was already clearly explained in a previous post.

    The precise wording is as shown in the last 2 posts I've made. I've given you the link twice. Same numbers, same odd expression, same punctuation, same punctuation errors

    3rd time lucky....

    How Many People Have Been Killed in the Name of Religion? : atheism

    the text if you can't open it...

    Posted byu/[deleted]4 years ago

    How Many People Have Been Killed in the Name of Religion?
    [​IMG]
    How many deaths have been caused by religion? Here's a list of religiously motivated wars and genocides and their death tolls. Let me know if I missed any!

    • The Crusades: 6,000,000

    • Thirty Years War: 11,500,000

    • French Wars of Religion: 4,000,000

    • Second Sudanese Civil War: 2,000,000

    • Lebanese Civil War: 250,000

    • Muslim Conquests of India: 80,000,000

    • Congolese Genocide (King Leopold II): 13,000,000

    • Armenian Genocide: 1,500,000

    • Rwandan Genocide: 800,000

    • Eighty Years' War: 1,000,000

    • Nigerian Civil War: 1,000,000

    • Great Peasants' Revolt: 250,000

    • First Sudanese Civil War: 1,000,000

    • Jewish Diaspora (Not Including the Holocaust): 1,000,000

    • The Holocaust (Jewish and Homosexual Deaths): 6,500,000

    • Islamic Terrorism Since 2000: 150,000

    • Iraq War: 500,000

    • US Western Expansion (Justified by "Manifest Destiny"):20,000,000

    • Atlantic Slave Trade (Justified by Christianity): 14,000,000

    • Aztec Human Sacrifice: 80,000

    • AIDS deaths in Africa largely due to opposition to condoms: 30,000,000

    • Spanish Inquisition: 5,000

    • TOTAL: 195,035,000 deaths in the name of religion.
    Notice any similarities?

    Yes, of course you did rigorous analysis to arrive at exactly the same list that appears on numerous internet atheist outlets and you are totally unable to discuss any of your research, analysis, or provide any links. Happens all the time.

    People who invest as much time as you must have done carrying out original research usually love discussing it, you seem strangely reluctant to display any degree of understanding beyond repeating a single number as fact.

    Maybe you didn't copy paste it from reddit, as I said, you and the reddit chap might have plagiarised from the same place (btw you don't have to install an app to view it on your phone, just continue via browser)

    There is a 100% certainty that your info and that reddit post (from 4 years ago) involve copy/pasting the same info though. So unless he's plagiarising your original research...

    You could easily clear this up by posting links to some of the many open access papers you've read on the subject demonstrating you did actually use them to reach your findings...

    I know how you derived your estimations too, the evidence is very clear and appears above. No need to guess ;)
     
  17. Skreeper

    Skreeper Member

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    Then why have you been doing it for 20 pages and counting?

    I am well aware what you fundagelicals think about secular morality. It's hardly news that you guys don't understand it.
     
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  18. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Wow, perhaps they copied it off me, and there does seem to be several tens entries missing

    Mughal India ~ The Biggest Holocaust in World History | SikhNet


    And to justify your verbose objections you need to provide evidence that my figures are wrong.
     
  19. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    That was an equivocation. You moved from "battle deaths" to general deaths, fyi.
     
  20. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Which of the world's institutions indoctrinate Progressivism?

    Which don't? :shrug:

    Legislation, judicial, news media, entertainment, academia, sports, seminaries, religious denominations,.. i can't really think of ONE human institution that is not steeped in progressive ideology. They promote it constantly, with a steady pounding of propaganda drums, while the bobbleheaded indoctrinees fall in line with submissive obeisance.
    Seriously? You think 'Christianity,' is treated with dignity and respect? From where? ROFL!!

    The media? Movies and entertainment? The Great Bastion of Academia, that cranks out hostile, anti-christian indoctrinees every year? The increasing militancy, overt religious bigotry, and constant smears and false narratives that are repeated constantly and loudly in public forums?

    :rolleyes:

    ..'gimme a break'.. is right

    Methinks that may be why Jesus spoke against revenge..
    ROFL!! Not like you, eh? All love, friendliness, and tolerance toward those who believe differently than you.. :rolleyes:
    Absolutely. Our sins, virtues, foibles, and flaws are ours, alone. No man can atone for the sins of another..
    No, you seem hell bent on destroying and disparaging Christianity, and any who defend it from your hostile bigotry. Why pretend otherwise? :shrug:
     
    #400 usfan, Jun 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
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