MURDER, GENOCIDE, and ATHEISTS.

[Augustus]

What people want is a subjective claim.

Do you believe the people wanted a self-appointed elite to rule them with an iron fist?

I believe it was more a war against the church, which strongly supported the monarchy, and shares in the responsibility of the abuse and suppression of the peasants by the monarchy.

So to protect the peasants from the church and the monarchy, they killed the peasants for supporting the church and the monarchy?

It was a war against the people of the Vendee because they preferred the old elite to the new elite (the people's motto was: god, king)

 

[ChristineM]

They are not 'approximate', they are simply wrong, and wrong stuff gets repeated on the internet all the time. Someone just said stuff which supports an ideological bias, provided no evidence for it, and people accept it uncritically because it's emotionally satisfying to do so.

Irreligious folk here frequently criticise religious people for dogmatically holding to irrational opinions despite the evidence, yet always seem to do the same when its ideologically convenient for them to do so.



They also can oppose sex outside of marriage so you could as easily argue that religion reduces the spread of HIV if we are just making up narratives off the top of our heads.

Is there any actual evidence that the major reason people in Africa don't use condoms because they are religiously opposed? Why should a rational person accept the assertion that religion is the major cause of the HIV epidemic?



It is considered the greatest genocide by people who are very, very wrong about history. The idea that 80 million is 'very conservative' is ludicrous. Again, an estimate of zero would be far less wrong than 80 million.

This was a continuation of the Mongol conquests, and the death tolls for these are all ridiculously overstated.

A simple look at the demographics of India can tell you this: Demographics of India - Wikipedia

There are numerous other impossibilities I could go into, but these large numbers are simply invented out of thin air, generally for propaganda reasons. If you think pre-modern people were good at estimating numbers, look at the purported size of armies, they are generally 4-15 times beyond what was feasible.

Just because someone says something, doesn't mean you have to uncritically believe it.

400 million would mean killing 1-2% of the original population every year for 4 centuries. This is above WW2 level industrial slaughter for 4 centuries while maintaining a large population growth and building a very prosperous country with numerous alliances. 80 million is almost equally ridiculous by the numbers.

Do you actually believe that is remotely plausible?



But mostly it wasn't a religious war.

In your opinion, what constitutes a 'religious war'?

Did you actually read my post. It seems not, or you are working on confirmation bias. History provides evidence for those figures i have cited.

However , If you can provide credible evidence that my figures are so dramatically wrong please feel free to do so.

And religious folk to not criticise Irreligious folk, dogmatically holding on to their belief in god magic while threatening everlasting hell to those who dont think the same woo as them?

There are actually several publications on "religion and aids in africa". I just went to google schollar and found 338,000 listings, perhaps not all relevant but there are enough.

What??? Sheesh. Zero???? Confirmation bias big time, and how is todays population of india relevant to that at the time if the muslim conquests?


So claiming impossibly is ok for you to ignore evidence, fair enough

Before the muslim conquests the population of india is estimated at 600 million, after 200 million, a million deaths a year, feasible? Of course.

 

[shmogie]

That you are not better than this?

Ciao

- viole

The truth is the truth. So far, except for a few bits of concern over a very minor mistake on my part, no atheist has made any effort to explain why atheist government leaders slaughter people on a massive scale.

As much as many would like the issue to be about me, it isn´t, that is simply a diversion.

 

[ChristineM]

The truth is the truth. So far, except for a few bits of concern over a very minor mistake on my part, no atheist has made any effort to explain why atheist government leaders slaughter people on a massive scale.

As much as many would like the issue to be about me, it isn´t, that is simply a diversion.

They have explained that nationalism is not atheism but you have refused to accept basic logic.

So do you want to start again and list the governments you claimed are killing / have killed in the name of atheism.

 

[Audie]

It is nothing more than that 2000 years old persecution complex. Every little objection to their claims is perceived as a violent attack, or a threat to make them illegal and send them to feed the lions.

Ciao
- viole

Quite right, that their book tells them to expect
"scoffers" and, "persecution" but hey-"blessed
are they who are persecuted in my name".

It is terrif! Their bible is proved yet again to be
perfect, prophetic, and, they get to suffer, how
they suffer for their savour, and how they will
glory in the kingdom to come.

The white Christian men have had their own
way, so totally and for so long that of course
it is their god-given and sacred right to have it
unto perpetuity.

Now that here and there someone puts up
a hand to question it, well, that is nothing
less than the most savage and unnatural
attack on all that is pure sacred and holy.

The viciousness of the OP still comes as
a bit of a shock, even if we have seen this
before.

It makes me so sad, it does not have to be
this way.

I am an immigrant, a woman, not white.
I dont want to stand in anyone's way, take
anything from anyone, and, I dont want
anyone to do that to me.

 

[shmogie]

One need not be in this forum very long to learn that many Christians verbally hurt others emotionally by declaring
"Only Jesus is the right way, all others go to hell" (and when some don't declare it here, knowing they violate RF rule #8, they think this way)
(Of course the strong atheist is not affected by this BS, but what about all little children they emotional KILL (not free to think for themselves) by this blasphemic sin)

They think (and expect) they get away with this violent "emotional blackmail" kind of speech
PROOF of violence: So many Christians stick to the Bible/Church just out of fear for their horrific God/Satan in the Bible (done now for already 2000 years)

And the worst they do, being too arrogant to see, is blaming the atheist when the atheist mirrors the Truth: "emotional blackmail is not done"

Religious forums have discussions about religions. Religions have doctrines. a Christian doctrine is that man can approach God only through Christ.

You don´t like it, which is your right.

The rest of your post is pure nonsense.

 

[ecco]

The truth is the truth. So far, except for a few bits of concern over a very minor mistake on my part, no atheist has made any effort to explain why atheist government leaders slaughter people on a massive scale.

As much as many would like the issue to be about me, it isn´t, that is simply a diversion.

We need to separate where religion was and was not used as a basis for incidents causing deaths.

For where it was, I would include things as massive as Hitler's extermination of Jews in concentration camps and in the slaughter of millions of Poles and Russians in cities and towns. A slogan of WWII was "Gott Mitt Uns" and Hitler often cited he was doing God's work for the restoration of the Fatherland. Our killing of millions of Germans and Japanese also qualifies because we were doing it to defend our godly way of life. I would also include the invasion of the Americas which resulted in the almost complete extermination of the natives. I would also include smaller incidents like the religiously inspired beating and torture death of homosexuals in America.

On the other side of the coin would be incidents where atheism was the driving factor.

 

[stvdv]

One need not be in this forum very long to learn that many Christians verbally hurt others emotionally by declaring
"Only Jesus is the right way, all others go to hell" (and when some don't declare it here, knowing they violate RF rule #8, they think this way)
(Of course the strong atheist is not affected by this BS, but what about all little children they emotional KILL (not free to think for themselves) by this blasphemic sin)

They think (and expect) they get away with this violent "emotional blackmail" kind of speech

Religious forums have discussions about religions. Religions have doctrines. a Christian doctrine is that man can approach God only through Christ.

You don´t like it, which is your right.

The rest of your post is pure nonsense.

You don't like what I said ... that is obvious ... and exactly the response I expected

 

[shmogie]

They have explained that nationalism is not atheism but you have refused to accept basic logic.

So do you want to start again and list the governments you claimed are killing / have killed in the name of atheism.

However you label it, atheists committed massive genocide.

You whine about Christianity and Christians because alleged Christians because of nationalism and greed for power murdered. You use this to indict Christianity.

But atheists slaughtering has nothing to do with the killers being atheists.

Nice try, no cigar. Atheism offers absolutely restraint, none on murder

 

[sooda]

I am not here for all theists, I am here for all Christians.

You shall not murder,

There ya go. Lay that atheist moral code on me.

There is no "atheist moral code" and they think murder is immoral as well. Have you ever looked into the Code of Hammurabi or the Egyptian Book of the Dead?

 

[sooda]

The Biblical god character was a very violent entity according to the not so good book.

That's the narrative, which may not be true.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

One need not be in this forum very long to learn that the atheists here, for the most part, are in full attack mode when it comes to Christianity.

Actually, it is you in attack mode, trying to provoke a response. No problem. Let me tell you what I think about your religion since you're so keen to tell Religious Forums how much you resent atheists.

You started this thread to smear atheism by conflating it with brutal authoritarian regime, undoubtedly because you have no legitimate criticism of atheism, and nothing to promote your religion with - just like the creationists, who have nothing to promote, and so attack the alternative, the biology that contradicts their faith-based beliefs.

Your religion has a long history of hatred and bigotry for atheists and atheism, and their desire to see it weakened is justified. After millennia of Christian atheophobic bigotry marginalizing and demonizing atheism, making the lives of unbelievers more difficult and dangerous, at long last, atheists have a platform and a voice, and are chastising Christianity. This infuriates some Christians, like a hunter who wasn't expecting his intended prey to be able to defend itself, and gores the hunter, who utters an angry epithet as he lies bleeding out in the snow, cursing at what he considers an unprovoked attack. That's the status of the church as it hemorrhages members, dollars, and clout.

This is why Christianity is losing the culture war to secular humanism. It churns out countless numbers of bigots like you to attempt to smear your honest, hard-working, law-abiding humanist neighbors trying to raise their families properly and make their communities better, given those people reason to fire back. Isn't that what's happening here - you trying to demean your atheist readers by conflating them with unrelated totalitarian regimes, and atheists like me pointing out the hatred and bigotry of your religion in reaction? You asked for it. I didn't wake up today intending to gore Christianity, but then I saw your thread taking aim at atheism, and thought, why not? Let him have it.

This is one of the reasons Christianity is so disliked. You blame everybody but yourselves, but here you are damaging your religion further by expressing your bigotry Christian bigotry and inviting other to discuss your religion's mean-spiritedness and hypocrisy. The LGBTQ+ community will likely back me up on this. Love thy neighbor indeed.

 

[usfan]

I thought you would say something like that, so here ya go, which of these were nothing to do with religion

"US Western Expansion (Justified by ""Manifest Destiny""):20,000,000 deaths"
AIDS deaths in Africa largely due to opposition to condoms: 30,000,000 , ok not a war but deaths caused by religious opposition to condoms


Al Qaeda, 1993-
Albigensian Crusade, 1208-49
Algeria, 1992-
Arab Outbreak, 7th Century CE
Arab-Israeli Wars, 1948-
Armenian Genocide: 1,500,000
Atlantic Slave Trade (Justified by Christianity): 14,000,000
Aztec Human Sacrifice: 80,000
Baha'is, 1848-54 ... Muslim/Bab’i conflict
Bosnia, 1992-95
Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1901
Christian Romans, 30-313 CE
Congolese Genocide (King Leopold II): 13,000,000
Croatia, 1991-92
Crusades, 1095-1291 - 6,000,000

Dutch Revolt, 1566-1609
Eighty Years' War: 1,000,000
English Civil War, 1642-46
First Sudanese Civil War: 1,000,000
French Wars of Religion: 4,000,000
Great Peasants' Revolt: 250,000
Holocaust, 1938-45
Huguenot Wars, 1562-1598
India, 1992-2002
India: Suttee & Thugs
Indo-Pakistani Partition, 1947
Iran, Islamic Republic, 1979-
Iraq War: 500,000
Iraq, Shiites, 1991-92
Islamic Terrorism Since 2000: 150,000
Jewish Diaspora (Not Including the Holocaust): 1,000,000
Jews, 1348
Jonestown, 1978

Lebanon 1860 / 1975-92 250,000
Molucca Is., 1999-
Mongolia, 1937-39
Muslim Conquests of India: 80,000,000
Nigeria, 1990s, 2000s- 1,000,000

Northern Ireland, 1974-98
Russian pogroms 1905-06 / 1917-22
Rwandan Genocide: 800,000
Second Sudanese Civil War: 2,000,000
Shang China, ca. 1300-1050 BCE
Shimabara Revolt, Japan 1637-38
Sikh uprising, India, 1984-91
Spanish Inquisition, 1478-1834 - 5,000

St. Bartholemew Massacre, 1572
Taiping Rebellion, 1850-64
The Holocaust (Jewish and Homosexual Deaths): 6,500,000
Thirty Years War, 1618-48 - 11,500,000

Tudor England
Vietnam, 1800s
Witch Hunts, 1400-1800
Xhosa, 1857

None of these were driven by the teachings of Jesus. All wars are from human aggression, driven from a foundational ideology... almost all have an elitist view of themselves, or see themselves on an historical mission, including the Marxists mentioned by the OP.

But it is a FALSE and PEJORATIVE narrative, to smear 'Christianity!' ..as the CAUSE and MOTIVATION for 'war, slavery, and oppression!'

The opposite is true, as Christianity has been a stabilizing and moralizing force in the world. Western civilization would not have been without it.

"For more than a thousand years the BIBLE, collectively taken, has gone hand in hand with civilization, science, law --in short, with the moral and intellectual cultivation of the species, always supporting and often leading the way. ~Samuel Taylor Coleridge

It is revisionist propaganda, from a hostile, competing worldview, that promotes and indoctrinates these smears.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Actually, it is you in attack mode, trying to provoke a response. No problem. Let me tell you what I think about your religion since you're so keen to tell Religious Forums how much you resent atheists.

You started this thread to smear atheism by conflating it with brutal authoritarian regime, undoubtedly because you have no legitimate criticism of atheism, and nothing to promote your religion with - just like the creationists, who have nothing to promote, and so attack the alternative, the biology that contradicts their faith-based beliefs.

Your religion has a long history of hatred and bigotry for atheists and atheism, and their desire to see it weakened is justified. After millennia of Christian atheophobic bigotry marginalizing and demonizing atheism, making the lives of unbelievers more difficult and dangerous, at long last, atheists have a platform and a voice, and are chastising Christianity. This infuriates some Christians, like a hunter who wasn't expecting his intended prey to be able to defend itself, and gores the hunter, who utters an angry epithet as he lies bleeding out in the snow, cursing at what he considers an unprovoked attack. That's the status of the church as it hemorrhages members, dollars, and clout.

This is why Christianity is losing the culture war to secular humanism. It churns out countless numbers of bigots like you to attempt to smear your honest, hard-working, law-abiding humanist neighbors trying to raise their families properly and make their communities better, given those people reason to fire back. Isn't that what's happening here - you trying to demean your atheist readers by conflating them with unrelated totalitarian regimes, and atheists like me pointing out the hatred and bigotry of your religion in reaction? You asked for it. I didn't wake up today intending to gore Christianity, but then I saw your thread taking aim at atheism, and thought, why not? Let him have it.

This is one of the reasons Christianity is so disliked. You blame everybody but yourselves, but here you are damaging your religion further by expressing your bigotry Christian bigotry and inviting other to discuss your religion's mean-spiritedness and hypocrisy. The LGBTQ+ community will likely back me up on this. Love thy neighbor indeed.

I'm a bisexual who backs you up.

 

[sooda]

None of these were driven by the teachings of Jesus. All wars are from human aggression, driven from a foundational ideology... almost all have an elitist view of themselves, or see themselves on an historical mission, including the Marxists mentioned by the OP.

But it is a FALSE and PEJORATIVE narrative, to smear 'Christianity!' ..as the CAUSE and MOTIVATION for 'war, slavery, and oppression!'

The opposite is true, as Christianity has been a stabilizing and moralizing force in the world. Western civilization would not have been without it.

"For more than a thousand years the BIBLE, collectively taken, has gone hand in hand with civilization, science, law --in short, with the moral and intellectual cultivation of the species, always supporting and often leading the way. ~Samuel Taylor Coleridge

It is revisionist propaganda, from a hostile, competing worldview, that promotes and indoctrinates these smears.

Like this?

The burning times. A frenzy of witch-hunts took place during this time in Europe, mostly in German-speaking parts, with an estimated 60,000 people put to death. In mainland Europe and Scotland they burned them, with the peak period between 1580 and 1662 often referred to as The Burning Times.
BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | The burning times
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8334055.stm

or this?

The Malleus Maleficarum, usually translated as the Hammer of Witches, is the best known and the most thorough treatise on witchcraft. It was written by the discredited Catholic clergyman Heinrich Kramer and first published in the German city of Speyer in 1487. It endorses extermination of witches and for this purpose develops a detailed legal and theological theory. It was a bestseller, second only to the Bible in terms of sales for almost 200 years. It has been described as the compendium of ….

The Malleus Maleficarum
www.malleusmaleficarum.org

 

[shmogie]

We need to separate where religion was and was not used as a basis for incidents causing deaths.

For where it was, I would include things as massive as Hitler's extermination of Jews in concentration camps and in the slaughter of millions of Poles and Russians in cities and towns. A slogan of WWII was "Gott Mitt Uns" and Hitler often cited he was doing God's work for the restoration of the Fatherland. Our killing of millions of Germans and Japanese also qualifies because we were doing it to defend our godly way of life. I would also include the invasion of the Americas which resulted in the almost complete extermination of the natives. I would also include smaller incidents like the religiously inspired beating and torture death of homosexuals in America.

On the other side of the coin would be incidents where atheism was the driving factor.

Wow, you are really stretching it now.

The allies response to axis aggression had nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with territorial defense. This is a hollow ploy.

I have cited elsewhere from the encyclopedia of war that of all the wars in the worlds history only about 3.5% were caused by religion.

The genocide of native Americans had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with manifest destiny.

The massive extermination of hundreds of millions of people by atheists occurred be the atheist belief has no moral restriction on murder. Atheism gives the atheist reason to do what a Christian should never do. In the one case ones belief structure allows genocide, in the other, one must defy the belief structure to commit genocide.

 

[Audie]

There is no "atheist moral code" and they think murder is immoral as well. Have you ever looked into the Code of Hammurabi or the Egyptian Book of the Dead?

Of all the ugly bigotry / prejudice / vicious
applied ignorance ever, the one about how
atheists have no moral compass has to be
among the lowest.

I do feel sorry for those who have worked
themselves into this awful state of mind, but
I have to keep in mind that their contempt
and hatred for me or anyone like me, is right
there, simmering below the surface. Well,
not always below.

We have had an eruption or two in this thread.

I remember well running across a person of
similar mind set who told me he prays daily
to god for word that it is time to start killing all
the atheists.

I asked him about hanging me from a lamp post.
He said he would do as god directed.

 

[sooda]

Of all the ugly bigotry / prejudice / vicious
applied ignorance ever, the one about how
atheists have no moral compass has to be
among the lowest.

I do feel sorry for those who have worked
themselves into this awful state of mind, but
I have to keep in mind that their contempt
and hatred for me or anyone like me, is right
there, simmering below the surface. Well,
not always below.

We have had an eruption or two in this thread.

I remember well running across a person of
similar mind set who told me he prays daily
to god for word that it is time to start killing all
the atheists.

I asked him about hanging me from a lamp post.
He said he would do as god directed.

That is so sick and perverted..

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

That is so sick and perverted..

I agree.

 

[BilliardsBall]

One need not be in this forum very long to learn that the atheists here, for the most part, are in full attack mode when it comes to Christianity.

One of their favorite lines of attack is to cite the historical violence of some Christians as a brand on all Christians, with the inference that Christianity is itself a failed endeavor.

Actually, there is a bit of truth to this, when the Church and government became one with Constantine, the greed for money and power superseded the Christian sensibilities of many who claimed to be Christians, and in the name of Christianity, murder and genocide occurred. The hybrid monster of the church and state, or the state and church working together for the same goals corrupted the church.

However, for every brutal leader supported by the church, there were many Christians with no government association who lived the Christian lifestyle and followed in the footsteps of Christ.

What was done in the name of Christianity by a corrupt church and government must be recognized, and cannot be defended.

Since atheists like to put the burning tire of murder and genocide on the neck of most any Christian, I thought a look at the atheist track record in this regard would be worthwhile.

I have pages of specific citations, so, if in the following you feel you need a citation for a sentence or paragraph, I will happily supply it.

According to an article by Christian apologist Gregory Koukl, with citations; " The assertion is that religion has caused most of the bloodshed in the world. There are people who make accusations and assertions that are empirically false, this is one of them"According to Le Monde, atheist regimes killed 100 million people in the 20th century, via genocide.

The reign of terror in France, whose leaders were influenced by Diderot, Voltaire, Sade, and Rosseau, who worshiped the cult of reason, murdered 300,000 Frenchmen, most for not being good atheists.,The details of their torture and their slaughter are revolting.

Koukl summarizes by stating that " It is true that religion can possibly produce evil, and generally when we look closer at the detail, it produces evil because the individual people are living in rejection of Christianity and the God that they are supposed to be following.n so it can produce evil but the historical fact is that the outright rejection of God and institutionalizing atheism actually does produce evil at incredible levels"

Thanks for trying to make the peace, but the other side is committed to bloodshed:

1) The other side says the "Bible never happened", so how do they protest so stridently a genocide that "never happened"--oh that's right, they're also ticked off incessantly, permanently, about a God who doesn't exist!

2) The other side DOES read the Bible, especially three or four verses out of context about genocide, rape and abortion--while never bothering to THINK about the rest of the scriptures!

3) The other side claims no atheist trolls exist at RF!