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Mormon or Christians?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by TheGreaterGame, Jun 6, 2005.

  1. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    "
    Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth" (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10). Joseph Smith, Mormon Seer
     
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  2. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    Yes and Okay
     
  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I might actually even consider answering this question -- but only if you will go back through my posts and answer the many questions I've asked you. They were not meant to be merely rhetorical. I asked for your opinion on a number of issues and you have conveniently ignored me.
     
  4. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    but you have said . . .
    This is a contradiction on the grounds that scripture argues that Jesus is God (and I have already listed them, please look at them in context)
     
  5. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    If you would like to restate your arguement . . . I have already stated . . .

     
  6. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

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    Thank you for making a direct quote. I mean that. :162: Frubals on you.

    The only problem is that nowhere here does it say that the LDS church is the Church of the Lamb of God. Can you find anywhere where Joseph or anyone else says so?
     
  7. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    I think that it is implied . . . but I think I can show you . . .
     
  8. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    Joseph Smith claimed that he had seen both God the Father and Jesus Christ and asked these personages which church he should join. He claimed he was told to join none of them, "for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight" (Joseph Smith History 1:19).
     
  9. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    I think the above mentioned quotes argue for the fact Joseph Smith started the LDS church out of the notion that the Christian Church was an abomination. And according to the Seers words . . . "the great whore "
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Well, how about giving me more than 30 seconds to go back through all of my posts? These are the most significant questions you failed to address:

    Where in the Bible is there any claim to inerrancy?

    Where in the Bible is there any statement to support your theory that it contains every single solitary thing that God wants us to know?

    Oh, and while you're at it, which translation is inerrant?


    (Please don’t just respond by saying “2nd Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1:1, Duet 6:1-9.” I would like to see you explain how you are interpreting these verses, because they evidently mean something entirely different to you than they do to me.)

    *****

    Which of these scriptures do you take issue with?

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

    Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    2Timothy: 2-19 Nevertheless, the foundation of God standeth sure, having the seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

    Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

    James 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


    What do you think of other Christians who reject the doctrine of sola fide? In other words, are the one billion Catholics also non-Christians?

    *****

    In addition several Old Testament scriptures speak of God as "God of gods." What do you make of these verses? Do you believe them to be true, or are you going to say that all references in the scriptures to "gods" (note the lower-case "g") is to false gods? Do you believe that God is the God of "false gods," or might He be the God of other beings who, for whatever reason, have been designated as "gods"?


    *****

    It would be helpful if you would quote Abraham instead of just referring to it. I would like to be able to address an actual verse or two instead of simply speaking in generalities.


    *****

    And when did either DeepShadow or I say, "God is a god and Jesus is a god . . . and the Spirit is a god"?

    Did you even bother reading the verses I provided from The Book of Mormon? I'm even reposting them for you. Please tell me what, if anything, you find objectionable about them.


    2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

    Mosiah 15:5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

    Alma 11:44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

    3 Nephi 11:27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.

    Mormon 7:7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

    Once you have answered my questions, I'll continue to answer more of yours. Not until.

    Kathryn
     
  11. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    Kat, I honestly think that I have argued these question in a systematic way . . . I appreciate you restating your questions . . . with repect to your position and convictions . . . I ask you . . . do you think it would be better all at once or just one topic at a time? Seriously, thegg
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Probably one at a time. If you think a whole new thread would be appropriate, I'm open to that, too -- especially on the subject of the Trinity. This is one subject that keeps getting hashed about from time to time and always seems to warrant a thread of its own. You could also start a thread on salvation by grace through faith alone versus salvation by grace through faith and works. It's up to you.
     
  13. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    Kat, thanks for the dialougue . . . I think it's best if we work through each question with a maximum of three rebuttals per topic (on both sides if needed). Again my position is not to demonize but . . . to find the truth . . . forgive me for any arogance or pomp.
     
  14. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    Question 1. Where in the Bible is there any claim to inerrancy?

    Inerrancy- a reference to the variously interpreted doctrine that the bible is free from doctrine.- Erickson's Concise Dictionary of Theological Terms

    The inerrancy of scripture means taht scripture in the original manuscript does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact. -Grudems Systematic Theology

    Is the bible true or is it false? That is the question of inerrancy. The question that has been posed is wither or not the Bible makes a claim for itself to be "inerrant" . . . now we will not see the term inerrant . . . but we also don't have the term trinity or incarnation (immaculate conception to name another) and some other terms . . . but we have to realize that we use non-biblical terms to explain somethings that are thorougly biblical ( I hope this is not a topic that is too heavily debated . . . its off the subject).

    Although we do not have the exact original manuscripts of the OT & NT . . . it would be to quick to say that the bible cannot be trusted. According to Grudem . . . we know that 99% of the words of the Bible contain exactly what the ancient manuscripts said.

    All of that said . . . let's look at some scripture

    Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He the son of man, that He should change His mind. Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not fulfill it?

    God's not a man . . . He's God, mankind lies . . . God doesn't . . . immutiable (unchanging). Has He said (yes) and He will do (God exists and by His nature He never contradicts Himself). He has spoken definatively . . . through the words He has spoken to His prophets . . . in which they were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write . . . and they put to paper.

    John 17:17, Jesus prays for the Saints in His high priestly prayer, "Santify them in the truth; Your word is truth"

    God santifies His children with the teachings of His word which have been written in the OT & NT. Jesus says . . . God your word is truth . . . the Law is truth . . . the Apostles word is truth . . . the Gospels are truth . . .

    Jesus quotes the Bible He read (the torah) in Matthew 4:4, "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. Jesus was quoting Duet 8:3 . . . which means that Jesus trusted and belived in the accuracy (inerrancy if you will) of the bible.

    2nd Timothy 3:16 . . . as I have said . . . and which is a pretty staple text of Christians for the proof of inerrancy & infallability . . . "All scripture is breathed out by God . . ."

    Just looking at these texts alone . . . and we could look at many more . . . we see that the Bible we have . . . all 66 books have been inspired from God . . . and have been preserved by Christ's bride the Church throughout the ages. Archealogy and the 6,000 manuscripts dating from 250 BC to AD 1000 . . . show that the Bible that we have today is almost exactly like the ones written over 2300 years ago.
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    You are quite right; I have found the source from where I took the information for my prvious thread, and have kept a record of it for future reference.

    Don't forget though that the debate here was a comparrison between Mormons and Christian, invevitably, from the viewpoint of our own faith (as far as I am concerned).

    The sources I quoted were from a Christian standpoint, and all that my post was meant to convey was the Christian view of Mormonism; if you had any problems, you could have quoted Mormon principles to disagree with what I had said, rather than to say the whole post was unsubstantiated. My reply was not a critique to Mormism, but rather, the Cristian's perception of it.:)
     
  16. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    You must have inerrancy of one form or another if you hold to John 1:1
     
  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Nonsense. Quoting one verse implies absolutely nothing about the remaining verses. More importantly, what you have is not evidence that "Jesus trusted and belived in the accuracy" of that verse, but that the anonymous author of gMat, writing decades after the purported conversation, chose to reference Deuteronomy in his fictive dialogue.

    Parenthetically, bible/org notes: "The order of the second and third temptations differs in Luke’s account (4:5-12) from the order given in Matthew." The New Testament is such a marvelously ... liquid text.

    <yawn> Oy vey. </yawn> The Pastorals have no claim to authenticity. In its introduction, the New American Bible acknowleges: "Most scholars are convinced that Paul could not have been responsible for the vocabulary and style, the concept of church organization, or the theological expressions found in these letters." Kirby notes that they were not included in Marcion's canon and unreferenced before Irenaeus.

    To argue that the Bible inerrant because it contains an anonymous letter that says that the Bible is inspired is a childishly circular argument worthy only of embarrassment.

    We see that your claim is based on absurd logic, fictive dialogue, and inauthentic text.

    They in fact show nothing of the sort. The coordinator of the DSS Project characterized the textual evidence as pluriformity, while the so-called New Testament provides fertile ground for redaction criticsm. Furthermore, to the extent that textual consistency exists, it only seves as evidence for efficient harmonization and disciplined copying, and says absolutely nothing about the accuracy of the text - there is very little variation in the many extant copies of the Wizard of Oz.
     
  18. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

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    There she goes again, the mother hen of the board. :rolleyes: Quick, get that smudge off my cheek before she sees it!

    Seriously, I am also very impressed and pleased at your understanding of our faith, Painted Wolf. Have some frubals.
     
  19. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1:1


    Why?
     
  20. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    No, I didn't understand that one either.

    James
     
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