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Mormon or Christians?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by TheGreaterGame, Jun 6, 2005.

  1. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    This due to the fact that most Christians have grown up listening to a watered down Gospel with no theological foundation.

    In Systematic Theology there are no "Contradictions"
     
  2. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    It is absolutely deniable. No authorship or main diety in the Bible has ever or can ever be proved. You have to have that before you can say his word is absolute and even then you have a circular proof. I'm afraid there are just too many fallacies for you to overcome in discussion.

    Maintain your faith (and I encourage you to do it) but there is nothing in it to convince others or deny others their faith - it is nothing but your opinion, perhaps shared in the main but still opinion. You and your God, speaking through you, may now have the last word, an arrogant, biased word. Be my guest
     
  3. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    Protestants saw and had experianced the abuses of the RCC and by the Grace of Jesus Christ and the providence of God . . . Luther revolted. Therefore the Gospel lives on through those who teach and preach the word of God, because it is infalliable. And if it is falliable as you say . . . then we cannot trust anything that it says. Therefore I subsribe as do evangelical Christians that is only by faith, only by Christ, only the word of God.
     
  4. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

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    Check out www.mormon.org for basic info, and if you want to go deeper, check out www.lds.org, which contains complete texts of all our scriptures, sunday school manuals, church magazines and more. It's pretty safe to say that if you can't find it on the latter site, it's not official church doctrine.

    Of course, as this thread has proven, part of it depends upon youre definition of Christian. Apparently some folks believe that faith in Jesus Christ, as the Son of the Living God isn't enough. I must admit I can't jump through all the hoops I'm offered here, but if I'm being excluded, at least I have good company.
     
  5. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    The History of Isreal has been chronicled and recorded by historians. The ressurection of Jesus Christ is the easiest historical fact ever proven. The early Church and the marytrdom that followed echoes the cries "there is a God . . . and His name is Jesus. The prophecy that has been fulfilled throughout the OT & NT is without question. And besides all of this . . . the human heart declares that there is a God . . . but He can only be known through the Bible . . . and salvation can be found to the exclusion of all other religions . . . in Jesus alone. Thankyou for allowing me an opportunity to express the truth of Jesus Christ. I do realize how offensive the truth can be.
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Game,

    First of all, I am confused as to why you think any of your three "arguments" has anything at all to do with how the word "Christian" is to be defined. A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Now, as to your specific claims:

    1. Where in the Bible is there any claim to inerrancy? Where in the Bible is there any statement to support your theory that it contains every single solitary thing that God wants us to know? Oh, and while you're at it, which Bible is inerrant? I know of huge numbers of Christians who believe, as we do, that the Bible was inspired, that the original autographs were infallible, but that through the process of transcription and translation, some errors have been made. These Christians belong to almost every major denomination. This is certainly not a belief unique to the Latter-day Saints.

    2. Jesus is a sub-god? :biglaugh: That's a good one. Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, and the third member of the Godhead. He was with His Father in the beginning, created our universe under His Father's direction, was chosen before the foundations of this world to be the Messiah. He was born to a Virgin, taking upon Himself a body of flesh and bones (which He has today). As God, He was the only individual who has ever walked this earth to have lived an absolutely perfect life. His mission was to establish a Church, to teach a new gospel of love, mercy, and forgiveness and to offer Himself as a sinless sacrifice for men and women everywhere. Because none of us are in a position to be able to repay the debt we have incurred through our sins, it is through His atonement and that alone that we are given the opportunity to be reconciled to God. We worship and revere Him as our Redeemer and try to honor Him in all that we do. How do you get "sub-god" out of that?

    3. Here is what we believe concerning the relationship between faith and works:

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

    Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    2Timothy: 2-19 Nevertheless, the foundation of God standeth sure, having the seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

    Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

    James 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    Which of these scriptures do you take issue with? By the way, as with your first argument, I know a great many non-LDS Christians who also believe that one must do more that profess faith in Christ to be justified. Or don't you think they're Christians either?

    Kathryn
     
  7. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    Once again: Word of God DOES NOT ONLY MEAN BIBLE!!! Although, the Bible is infallible, we agree there.

    And one more point: it was not by the Grace of Jesus Luther revolted. It was his own scrupulosity. Jesus would never give somone "grace" to revolt from His Church. And no, I do NOT mean to hijack this thread off-topic, but I had to respond.
     
  8. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    .
    2nd Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1:1, Duet 6:1-9. The admonition of the Prophets and Apostles to avoid false teachers and false doctrine (this dependant upon on a written Law that God breathed and man wrote) just to name a few.

    Do Mormons still teach "the eternal progession of man?" The exaltation of man to godhood? If this is still true which I belive that this still in the D&C, and taught by the Seer, then it flows logically that Jesus is just a sub-god.

    Did I not explain this perfectly in my first argument. Do you affirm what I have written in argument 3 or not. Because I think I have given an accurate depiction as to the Mormon way of salvation, and this is with dispute.
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Michael,

    Allow me to correct you on this. Your post strongly implies that this "quote" was taken from the Doctrine and Covenants, when in fact only the last sentence does. :tsk: Here is what D&C 130:22 actually says: "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."

    The part about God being a man "on another planet" is a non-Mormon twist on our doctrine. This is what happens when people manage to confuse LDS scripture with non-Mormon interpretations of LDS scripture.

    Our belief "in many gods" as you put it is virtually identical to the Apostle Paul's. He said, "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

    In addition several Old Testament scriptures speak of God as "God of gods." What do you make of these verses? Do you believe them to be true, or are you going to say that all references in the scriptures to "gods" (note the lower-case "g") is to false gods? Do you believe that God is the God of "false gods," or might He be the God of other beings who, for whatever reason, have been designated as "gods"? To accept what the Bible has to say about the existence of other divine beings does not in any way imply worship of them.

    For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward... (Deuteronomy 10:17)

    The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord... (Joshua 22:22)

    In the Bible there is also a general salvation for all mankind and an individual salvation for each person:


    1 Corinthians 15:22 speaks of a universal "resurrection", or salvation from the permanance of death: "For as inAdamall die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

    But Matthew 16:27 explains how "justification" will be based on obedience: "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shallreward every man according to his works."

    I realize that Lorenzo Snow's famous couplet may strike you as false doctrine. What do you think of these statements:


    “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.” (St. Irenaeus)

    “Do we cast blame on Him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and than later as Gods?” (Also Irenaeus)

    “The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.” (St. Clement)

    [Men are] “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” (Justin Martyr)

    “The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine.” (Athanasius)

    “But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.” (St. Augustine)

    Well, that's a nice one-sided look at things. However, the Bible is equally clear in stressing that one must be obedient to God's commandments. (See my earlier post to TheGreaterGame for specific scriptures.)

    Kathryn :)
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'm curious, Melody, as to where your LDS friend's beliefs differ from Deep Shadow's. I am, as you know, also LDS and, incidentally, also from Salt Lake City. I found Deep Shadow's explanations to be very accurate. Obviously, there will be minor differences of opinions on things between members of the same faith, but I'd say that all practicing Latter-day Saints pretty much agree on the essentials.

    Kathryn
     
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Well how about some specifics instead of simply accusations? Incidentally, that's exactly how I feel when I ask Trinitarians to explain that doctrine. I get everything from modalism to God knows what!
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Game,

    Okay, so you don't accept Timothy, Hebrews and Deuteronomy as true. Now what was it you were saying about Bible inerrancy?

    Of course we still teach the doctrine of Eternal Progression -- just as the original Church did. Through Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations. Now, if these promises are true (as I believe they are), what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” What do they imply to you?

    I'm sorry, but your "logic" is pretty illogical.

    If you are trying to say that Mormons believe we can "earn our way to Heaven," then no, I affirm nothing of the kind. If you are implying that Mormons believe that "faith without works is dead," then yes, you are right.

    Kathryn
     
  13. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    This is to prove the Bible is inerrant not to argue that I don't belive in the texts stated (because I do belive)

    I also appreciate you proving my point that Mormons make Jesus out to be a sub-god. I did think it was interesting that you quoted Paul to prove that there are in fact a multitude of Gods. However I think if you read

    For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

    You seem to think that Paul argues for a polytheism, when in the same text He says, "to us (to Christians) there is but one God. Contextually, Paul is dealing with the issues of someone making an idol a god. Not that there are any other God . . . but one.

    Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and His redeemer the Lord of Hosts; I am the first and I am the Last; besides me there is no god."

    Isauag 45:5, "I am the Lord, and there is not other, besides me there is no God . . . v 6, "I am the Lord, and there is no other . . ."

    The Children of Israel had succumbed to some of the false teachings that there were other God's . . . and it causes God to speak through Isaiah . . . there are no other God's besides me . . .

    When the bible speaks of god's and lord . . . it speaks of demi-gods . . . and rulers of lands . . . not of a multiplicity of gods.


    Is the Book of Abraham still apart of the LDS's canon? If it is . . . then it depicts everything that was alluded to by my counterpart.
     
  14. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    Mormons don't belive that God the father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are all the same being. Jesus is the SON of God not God himself. Not a sub-god or quazai dieity.... the holy son of god.

    As far as I know this is not a unique view ammong Christians. The nature of the trinity is widely debated and one of the most common splitting points among christian sects.

    wa:do
     
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  15. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    This belief is Arianism as condemned at the Council of Nicea. As such I think it's rather a rare belief amongst those calling themselves Christian. Certainly, it is not found in any church outside those I would loosely describe as Protestant (i.e. including Mormons, JWs etc.), and not in the mainstream Protestant churches either.

    James
     
  16. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    Let me clarify . . . "Jesus As A Sub-god"

    Because I feel this has been open to a wrong interpretation of what I meant to write.

    Christ from my perspective is the Son of God . . . the logos . . . through Him and for Him all things were made . . . Jesus is God . . . Jesus is the second person in the Godhead . . .

    My point that Jesus is a sub-god is from a distintly Mormon position.

    I hope this clarifies my position.
     
  17. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    I was NOT making accusations. I shied away from making accusations becasue I am not sure what it is Mormons believe. I have heard Jesus is a God, Jesus is not a God, Jesus IS one with the Father, Jesus is NOT one with the Father, etc. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to the true Mormon doctrine?
     
  18. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    None of that shows the Bible is sufficient for Christian Faith. 2 Timothy 3: 16-17 says it is profitable, not sufficient. Indeed, the Bible never claims to be sufficient strangely enough. Not to mention that even if it did, that would not be enough--you need an outside source to verify a book, otherwise the Qu'ran, etc. would all be considered necessary since they claim to be.
     
  19. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    . . . All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching (because its absoulute), for reproof (because its authoratative), and for training in rigteousness (because the Bible shows Christians how they are to live) . . .

    Just read the entire text
     
  20. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Ok.... let's read it:
    14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    2 Tim 3:15 refers to the holy Scriptures that Timothy has "known from infancy".... how exactly do you then decide that the very NEXT verse that references Scripture is the (yet unwritten and undefined by the Catholic Church) New Testament?

    Scott
     
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