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Mormon or Christians?

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
The Difference is msot certainly NOT semantics. If Jesus is not in full union with the Father, He is less than the father, and if that is Mormon doctrine, you are not really Christians. To be a Christian, you need to follow the Christ. And if you don't even believe He is what he said He was--God--how on earth can you claim to be following him.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Mormons follow the teachings of Christ as the Savior and the only Son of God.
They are as Christian as any other followers of christ.

John 14:28 "My Father is greater than I."

1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

semantics...

wa:do
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
I do not have the time right now, but can someone else please post the MYRIAD of Biblical passages where Jesus claims to be One with the Father?

Also, if you believe that Jesus is not part of a Trinity, YOU CANNOT BELIEVE HE IS A GOD, as the Bible CLEARLY destroys any notion of more than one God. In this case, you cannot call yourselves Christians, as CHRISTians follow what Christ said, namely, that He is God.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Uncertaindrummer said:
The Difference is msot certainly NOT semantics. If Jesus is not in full union with the Father, He is less than the father....
Huh? So if two beings are not one and the same, one has to be less? In that case, there would be no reason for the word "equal." We believe that God and Jesus Christ are equal.

I do not have the time right now, but can someone else please post the MYRIAD of Biblical passages where Jesus claims to be One with the Father?
What's the point? We'd only agree. I don't have the whole myriad, but I think the most important is from John 17, because it explains in what sense the Father and the Son are one:

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

In what sense do all true believers become one? It certainly isn't in the literal, same-body sense. They become one in purpose. They become united.
 

Fluffy

A fool
Heya Deep Shadow,

After responding to a question on another thread on whether the Trinity made Christianity a polytheistic religion or not, I was curious as to whether the slight differentiation in beliefs which the LDS hold might make such a change since if Jesus and God are 2 seperate entities, regardless of unification or not, would this not imply a, rather small, pantheon?
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
To answer your question, Fluffy, I'll copy and past Katzpur's list of scriptural references on the subject. Note that all of them are from the Book of Mormon, so these represent what we actually teach.

2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Mosiah 15:5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

Alma 11:44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

3 Nephi 11:27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.

Mormon 7:7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Hi, Painted Wolf.

painted wolf said:
sounds like a paradoxal contradiction ;)

The bible mentions other gods quite often and is specific that you arn't to worship them.
some examples:
Psalms 96:4 "For the Lord ... is to be feared above all gods."
Psalms 136:2 "O give thanks unto the God of gods."
Thank you for pointing this out -- not that it will make any difference in the slightest to anyone who doesn't really want to understand our belief.

The Mormon position is
God 'the father' is God
Jesus is the son of God (not god himself)
the Spirit is the intermediary between God and others. A servent of God not God himself.
I'm really pretty surprised at how accurate your knowledge of Mormonism is. I hope you won't mind if I make one minor clarification here. You are right when you say that we believe that God the Father is "God," and that Jesus is the "Son of God." We see them as being physically distinct from one another, but having a perfect unity in pretty much every other aspect of their being. When we refer to the Father, we generally call Him "God," "our Father in Heaven," or "our Heavenly Father." It would not be inaccurate, however, to speak of Jesus as God since they share this title. In the Bible, God the Father himself actually spoke to His Son on at least one occasion that I am aware of, addressing Him as "God." So, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all "God," but the Son is not His own Father, nor is the Father His own Son!

The difference is simply semantics, you wan't to see the Mormon position as somehow less valid than your own.
Of course it is!

Kathryn
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Uncertaindrummer said:
I do not have the time right now, but can someone else please post the MYRIAD of Biblical passages where Jesus claims to be One with the Father?

Also, if you believe that Jesus is not part of a Trinity, YOU CANNOT BELIEVE HE IS A GOD, as the Bible CLEARLY destroys any notion of more than one God. In this case, you cannot call yourselves Christians, as CHRISTians follow what Christ said, namely, that He is God.
Point number 1: Why can't we just believe that He is a part of the Godhead? Why must we believe something the Bible never says about Him -- namely, that He and His Father are both part of a single, invisible substance or essence which fills the universe?

Point number 2: I wasn't aware that we needed anyone's permission to call ourselves Christians. If we were to deny ourselves this priviledge, we'd be committing blasphemy. How would you like it if we were to tell you that you can't call yourself a Christian just because you don't share all of our beliefs? Give that some serious thought, please.
 

TheGreaterGame

Active Member
Do you understand how an arguement is constructed and logic applied?
___________________________
It was more of a blanket question for those who cast aside how arguements are constructed into three parts and then coming to a deductive answer that is absolute . . . but if you want you could take me to Duet.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
TheGreaterGame said:
According to Webster's- Polytheism is the belief or worship of more then one god
And how does Websters define "Christian?" Does it define Christian as "people who believe in the teachings of Jesus, except those who think God has a body?" Does it say "Christians are people who profess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, except Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc?"
 

TheGreaterGame

Active Member
Point number 1: Why can't we just believe that He is a part of the Godhead? Why must we believe something the Bible never says about Him -- namely, that He and His Father are both part of a single, invisible substance or essence which fills the universe?
John 8:58 . . . Jesus is the I AM . . . implication Jesus is God . .
Phillippians 2:5 . . . Jesus was in the form of God . . .
Hebrews 1:8 . . . "But of the Son He says . . . Your throne O God, is forever and ever . . . implication God the Father recognizes God the Son as God . . . equal to Him in power and unity and oneness.
Reveleation 1:8 . . . the Lord God says . . . I am the Alpha and the Omega . . . who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." this is the All powerful God . . . and it is Christ who is speaking . . . Jesus is God . . . the Father is God . . . When we look to scripture in Genesis 1, we can say with out a flinch . . . in the Beginning Jesus Christ said let their be light . . . because He is God . . .

Point number 2: I wasn't aware that we needed anyone's permission to call ourselves Christians. If we were to deny ourselves this priviledge, we'd be committing blasphemy. How would you like it if we were to tell you that you can't call yourself a Christian just because you don't share all of our beliefs? Give that some serious thought, please.
Joseph Smith started the Mormon Church on the premise that Chrstianity "Christian-proper" was the great whore of Babylon. So with all due respect . . . realize that your history would argue for a great seperation of Christianity and Mormonism. Your a Mormon or a Latter Day-Saint . . . Why worry about wither or not the Christian Church recognizes you as "Christian"
 

TheGreaterGame

Active Member
DS,

Are Mormons polythiests? Please Remember how Webster's defines Polytheism, and due keep in mind that the Book of Abraham teach the council of the god's, LDS teaching is consistant with the "Mormon concept of man's exaltation into Godhood"

"AS GOD IS MAN ONCE WAS . . . AS GOD IS MAN MAY BECOME"- B. R McConkie, LDS Seer . . .

I ask again are Mormons Polytheists? Remember the criteria . . . do you belive in multiple god's . . . and I beg you to stay on subject and not point to other issues . . . stay with this . . . because this is central to your theology . . . its central to a Christians understanding of who you report Christ to be . . . its central for eternal signifagance . . . thankyou, thegg
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
TheGreaterGame said:
John 8:58 . . . Jesus is the I AM . . . implication Jesus is God . .
We agree! See the above posts.

Phillippians 2:5 . . . Jesus was in the form of God . . .
Yup. He was in the form of his Father, not the form of himself. How would this statement make sense if it's read "Jesus was in the form of Jesus?"

Hebrews 1:8 . . . "But of the Son He says . . . Your throne O God, is forever and ever . . . implication God the Father recognizes God the Son as God . . . equal to Him in power and unity and oneness.
Yup. Equal. You can't be equal with yourself, that's redundant. And BTW, who's speaking here? Is Jesus talking to himself?

Reveleation 1:8 . . . the Lord God says . . . I am the Alpha and the Omega . . . who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." this is the All powerful God . . . and it is Christ who is speaking . . . Jesus is God . . . the Father is God . . . When we look to scripture in Genesis 1, we can say with out a flinch . . . in the Beginning Jesus Christ said let their be light . . . because He is God . . .
Wow, that's a lot of ellipsis for a statement that simply agrees with everything I posted in red a few posts back.

Joseph Smith started the Mormon Church on the premise that Chrstianity "Christian-proper" was the great whore of Babylon.
Source, please?
 

TheGreaterGame

Active Member
It means physically separate. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father.
John 8:58 . . . Jesus is the I AM . . . implication Jesus is God . .
Phillippians 2:5 . . . Jesus was in the form of God . . .
Hebrews 1:8 . . . "But of the Son He says . . . Your throne O God, is forever and ever . . . implication God the Father recognizes God the Son as God . . . equal to Him in power and unity and oneness.
Reveleation 1:8 . . . the Lord God says . . . I am the Alpha and the Omega . . . who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." this is the All powerful God . . . and it is Christ who is speaking . . . Jesus is God . . . the Father is God . . . When we look to scripture in Genesis 1, we can say with out a flinch . . . in the Beginning Jesus Christ said let their be light . . . because He is God . . .
Well what do these texts mean?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
TheGreaterGame said:
John 8:58 . . . Jesus is the I AM . . . implication Jesus is God . .
Phillippians 2:5 . . . Jesus was in the form of God . . .
Hebrews 1:8 . . . "But of the Son He says . . . Your throne O God, is forever and ever . . . implication God the Father recognizes God the Son as God . . . equal to Him in power and unity and oneness.
Reveleation 1:8 . . . the Lord God says . . . I am the Alpha and the Omega . . . who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." this is the All powerful God . . . and it is Christ who is speaking . . . Jesus is God . . . the Father is God . . . When we look to scripture in Genesis 1, we can say with out a flinch . . . in the Beginning Jesus Christ said let their be light . . . because He is God . . .
So what are you getting at? I believe every single one of those verses to be true. But then I keep forgetting, don't I? You know more about what the Latter-day Saints believe than I do. :areyoucra

Joseph Smith started the Mormon Church on the premise that Chrstianity "Christian-proper" was the great whore of Babylon. So with all due respect . . . realize that your history would argue for a great seperation of Christianity and Mormonism. Your a Mormon or a Latter Day-Saint . . . Why worry about wither or not the Christian Church recognizes you as "Christian"
The Christian Church? :biglaugh: Which one of the 30,000+ denominations is the Christian Church anyway? Or are all 30,000 (with the exception of mine) the Christian Church? This website lists the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as "a Christian denomination." Numerous demographic studies list it as the fourth largest Christian denomination in the United States. I personally know many non-LDS Christians who consider my church a "Christian church." If you, personally, don't think that Mormons are Christians, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Somehow, I don't think that when I stand before God to be judged, He's going to ask for your opinion.

Kathryn
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
TheGreaterGame said:
DS,

Are Mormons polythiests? Please Remember how Webster's defines Polytheism, and due keep in mind that the Book of Abraham teach the council of the god's, LDS teaching is consistant with the "Mormon concept of man's exaltation into Godhood"

"AS GOD IS MAN ONCE WAS . . . AS GOD IS MAN MAY BECOME"- B. R McConkie, LDS Seer . . .

I ask again are Mormons Polytheists? Remember the criteria . . . do you belive in multiple god's . . . and I beg you to stay on subject and not point to other issues . . . stay with this . . . because this is central to your theology . . . its central to a Christians understanding of who you report Christ to be . . . its central for eternal signifagance . . . thankyou, thegg
And we answer again - NO! Somehow you just don't seem to get it. To be perfectly honest, I'm still waiting for your answers to my questions. I've answered yours, and so has Deep Shadow. So far, you have not responded to any of ours. Would you like me to make a list of them for you so you don't have to actually go back and read my previous posts (which it appears you didn't bother to do the first time around)?

Discussions require input from both sides. Why don't you stop doing all of the critisising for awhile and take your turn at responding to our questions?
 
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