Mohammed

[nawab]

a scripture can be proven wrong with only one mistake and contradiction - hope that cleared your misconception

based on your logic: if Gabreil is not mentioned in the OT that only proves that the OT is not complete.
the omission of a key character from scripture seems to make the document "incomplete", therefore since the quran fails to mention Joshua as a prophet, then the quran, as well, is incomplete.



except that, from a jewish perspective, both the christian gospels and the quran contradict the torah, therefore neither is meant for the jewish people.

 

[nawab]

Quran is not for muslim or arabs it is meant for the entire human kind

before the egyptians used to look down on the israiletes enslaved them, whipped them to do alotof overtimes and alot more tortures. so god choose the israiletes who were being looked down on and to move them on top. but later when the israiletes didnt do there job so god swithed the people before islam people isolated the arabs nobody even wanted to conquer them they were looked down on epecially by the israiletes when god switched the people again to the arabs.

there is a old wifes tales with thirdly source, when moses was on Sinai and he felt very proud that he was the first prophet to interact with god but god told him that if it werent for muhammad i would not even declare my self god.

i know this story is not with much authenticity but just to have an idea about muhammads importance thats why

based on your logic: if Gabreil is not mentioned in the OT that only proves that the OT is not complete.
the omission of a key character from scripture seems to make the document "incomplete", therefore since the quran fails to mention Joshua as a prophet, then the quran, as well, is incomplete.



except that, from a jewish perspective, both the christian gospels and the quran contradict the torah, therefore neither is meant for the jewish people.

 

[gnostic]

i dont know why Joshuas name is not mentioned in the quran but Prophet muhammad PBUH said verbally there were 124,000 Prophets before him - it is mentioned in Hadith (a secondary Islamic Resourse after the quran)

I doubt there is even 200 prophets, let alone 124,000 prophets.

Well, not every Muslims believe in the Hadith.

the Authencity of a scriptures is determined not by is Joshua or Gabriels names are mentioend but how many mistakes

I think it is mistake for later Jews, Christians and Muslims to use Gabriel, who is most likely a Exile or post-Exile invention. The Qur'an seemed to have included many Jewish folklore and legends that other Jews have disbelieve and don't take seriously.

 

[Snowbear]

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

John 16:12-14
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

now these were what JESUS said dont tell me it was Joshua - oh what am i saying he was long before - dont tell me these prophices were to the Anti-Christ, Satanists, George Bush, or what ever.

from my case presented to you above to defend yourself you can either say the bible and the quran is right or both are wrong or like what i says some parts of the bible are wrong and yet some are gods words

DONT THINK THAT BECAUSE THESE ARE PROPHISING OUR PROPHET THATS WHY I AM QUOTING THESE TO VALIDATE HIM - THIS WILL ANSWER YOUR AND MOST OF THE CHRISTIAN AND JEWS

You and the Quran are once again way off base in attempting to use this scripture to verify the prophet Muhammed. The Comforter Jesus is speaking of in those verses is by no means another prophet. The Comforter/Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit (aka the Holy Ghost) of God. This Spirit is sent to 'dwell' in us. This Spirit is sent to lead us, guide us, comfort us, teach us the Truth, allow us to discern.

Again - why do you keep using the biblical scripture you actually have little understanding of and believe is corrupted and inaccurate to try to convince us infidels that Muhammed is a valid prophet?

 

[nawab]

yeah ok, then why is muhammad prophicesed by name in the song of solomon then,
and i told you before i never said it is corrupted i just said some historians, philosophers, saints and preists had added thier own belives, in the bible.

by the way, i thought the holy ghost was already there, ok assume he was talking about holy ghost and in the book of deutronomy 18:18 he was talking about joshua
how about the song of solomon where he was mentioned by name - pls dont tell me now it was virgin mary

You and the Quran are once again way off base in attempting to use this scripture to verify the prophet Muhammed. The Comforter Jesus is speaking of in those verses is by no means another prophet. The Comforter/Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit (aka the Holy Ghost) of God. This Spirit is sent to 'dwell' in us. This Spirit is sent to lead us, guide us, comfort us, teach us the Truth, allow us to discern.

Again - why do you keep using the biblical scripture you actually have little understanding of and believe is corrupted and inaccurate to try to convince us infidels that Muhammed is a valid prophet?

 

[Snowbear]

how about the song of solomon where he was mentioned by name - pls dont tell me now it was virgin mary

Again, you are wrong. Muhammad is not 'mentioned by name' in the Song of Soloman - unless of course you are saying that you consider Muhammed to be God?

Earlier in this thread, Jewscout gave us a pretty good translation of the Hebrew in the song you think is about Muhammed.

 

[TashaN]

The Comforter Jesus is speaking of in those verses is by no means another prophet. The Comforter/Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit (aka the Holy Ghost) of God. This Spirit is sent to 'dwell' in us. This Spirit is sent to lead us, guide us, comfort us, teach us the Truth, allow us to discern.

There was an interesting thread about the holy spirit in this thread. It might be useful in here.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21067

 

[nawab]

i dont care what the english translation says altogether lovely or whatever, the Torah was revealed in Hebrew and it should be understood in hebrew not in english. today the westerners have gave us all that impression that the bible/Torah was reavealed in english

even if you ask any expert what does Muhammad means in english, he will definatly say altogether lovely.

Again, you are wrong. Muhammad is not 'mentioned by name' in the Song of Soloman - unless of course you are saying that you consider Muhammed to be God?

Earlier in this thread, Jewscout gave us a pretty good translation of the Hebrew in the song you think is about Muhammed.

 

[Snowbear]

...today the westerners have gave us all that impression that the bible/Torah was reavealed in english...

Huh??

They do??

Where??

 

[nawab]

May Peace, mercyu and blessings of allah be on all of you.

when do i say i consider muhammad a god - i never said that , no muslim will dare say that its only christians who do not follow Christ but worship Christ in this case according to the bible we are more Christians then the Christians. this word TRINITY is not even mention in the BIBLE ONCE - why do you say it then . this word was invented or voted at the Council of NIceaa - just imagine god has to become three forms to maintain the world - this is called philosophy of Anthropomorhism
which is a pagen belief

by the way THIS TERM CHRISTIANS WAS GIVEN BY THE PAGENS TO THE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST AS A NICKNAME CAN YOU IMAGINE THE WHOLE BIBLE ONLY ONE TIME THIS TERM HAD APPEARDED.

one friend said the holy ghost or the holy spirit will help us identify as Christs or Christians - i find it unauthentic when the bible say the signs shall accompany those of true belivers with my name they shall cast out demons, immune to drinking deadly poison, speak foriegn tounges, heal the sick by puting their hand over the sick. if this is the case why do these stupid doctors waste so much time, MBBS, medical courses, training in hospital - they can just belive in Christ. thats it. by the way if you want to know where it is quoted from Gospel of Mark 16:17-18.

if this prophicy is true then in my entire life among 1 billion or maybe more Christians
i know many preists, Clergymen of the Church NO ONE HAD PROVED TO ME THAT THEY ARE TRUE BELIVERS - so either the bible is wrong or their are no true belivers

if you say that why am i quoting from bible and saying some verses are agreed and some are corrupted, because in the book of deutronomy, Isaiah, song of solomon that they are supporting muhammad so i agree in this verses. i belive in the holy quran which says in 7:157 those who follow the messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they will find mention in their own scriptures, law and gospel.

no matter how many times you change the bible, the foundation and mentality of Christianity, you cannot remove muhammads mention.

there are somany Christian/Jews/ non-Muslim Friends here no one can put forth a verse from the Quran which has mistakes and contradictions. why cant you even get one phrase thats wrong i can give you a hundred phrases from the bible or torah which has mistakes and contradictions

during my presentation if i hurt any friends feeling i apologise from the bottom of my heart - i know this phrase is getting boring but please understand i am obligied to say it - i am a student of religion and i do understand how it feels to be Critisied but thats not what i am doing - pls understand

may allah guide us all to the right path

NAWAB

Again, you are wrong. Muhammad is not 'mentioned by name' in the Song of Soloman - unless of course you are saying that you consider Muhammed to be God?

Earlier in this thread, Jewscout gave us a pretty good translation of the Hebrew in the song you think is about Muhammed.

 

[Snowbear]

no matter how many times you change the bible, the foundation and mentality of Christianity, you cannot remove muhammads mention.

Nope.... you cannot remove what was never there in the first place.

Why do you seem so desperate to prove the validity of your prophet by twisting the scriptures that you don't even believe in? Or perhaps your motive is to attempt to discredit the beliefs of others by attempting to twist and change their scriptures to fit what you think yours say? I don't know as I cannot know your motives except by what you post here. But you are only kidding yourselves if you think the verses you quoted are mention of Muhammed. They are not and they never will, no matter how much or how often you try to twist them.

 

[jewscout]

a scripture can be proven wrong with only one mistake and contradiction - hope that cleared your misconception

and yet muslims enjoy using non-muslim scripture which has been, by this logic, proven wrong...

there is a old wifes tales with thirdly source, when moses was on Sinai and he felt very proud that he was the first prophet to interact with god but god told him that if it werent for muhammad i would not even declare my self god.

i know this story is not with much authenticity but just to have an idea about muhammads importance thats why

ummmm the only thing this represents is a self-serving fairy tale used to place mohammed in the place that Islam alone places him and grafting islam onto the Abrahamic tradition.

i dont care what the english translation says altogether lovely or whatever, the Torah was revealed in Hebrew and it should be understood in hebrew not in english

but i didn't give it in the english i gave a transliterated hebrew text, and i transliterated it so people who can't pronounce hebrew can pronounce the word using english letters

מַחֲמַדִּים
Macha'madim
and the verse in question is not talking about a person, but about G-d and G-d alone.

unless someone wants to claim that Muhammed is G-d.

 

[gnostic]

no matter how many times you change the bible, the foundation and mentality of Christianity, you cannot remove muhammads mention.

That's the whole point, nawab.

"Muhammad" is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah, or in any part of the Tanakh. "Jesus" is also not mentioned anywhere in the Torah or in the Tanakh.

You, both Muslims (and Christians) based your points on interpretation of a fraction of the prophecy, tiny snipping, while ignoring the prophecy as a whole. You have taken your so-called prophecy out of context, when you ignore the surrounding passages, or the entire chapters.

For example, you use Deuteronomy 18:15-22, but you, Islam and other Muslims ignore the early part of chapter, from verse 1 to 14. Deut. 1-14 is relevant in understanding the whole chapter. But you take small part and try to force your meaning into it, thereby taking the whole text in chapter 18 out of context.

Muslims make this mistake, who like quoting and misinterpreting the scriptures, for nothing more than your own agenda. I have seen Christians done the same thing. Anyone can force any sort of meaning into small passages.

It sound too convenient to me that you would claim that these passages are about the your prophet and yet, at the same time, trying to discredit another religious scriptures as being "corrupted". I am not a Jew nor Christian, and even I can see your transparent propaganda.

:sorry1: but I don't buy your claim of you are "not trying to validate" your prophet in the so-called corrupted scriptures, because that's clearly what you are doing, and that is promoting Muhammad. If you are not doing so (ie validating/promoting prophet), then we wouldn't be having this debate.

I am actually having this same argument, over and over again, over the same passages of Deuteronomy and Isaiah in other threads, and even in other forums. Nothing I see from Muslim perspectives are new or convincing. The arguments are weak, just as the Christian's quotes on Jesus in OT is weak.

 

[Scott1]

Nothing I see from Muslim perspectives are new or convincing. The arguments are weak, just as the Christian's quotes on Jesus in OT is weak.

Very well said.... great post. The unity of the two Testaments proceeds from the unity of God's plan and his Revelation.... but I don't buy the typical Christian claim that it should be seen as "evidence", but instead as a part of our faith.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Again, I'd repeat.

Are these comparisons, simply your view? Are they views by Muslims in general? Or did Muhammad make this comparisons, linking himself to Moses?

Allah says in the Quran to make no distinction between the Prophets they are all the Messenger of Allah sent to give the call to worship only him. The problem is people say some things about Jesus which is uncharacteristic of Moses and Muhammed. Allah says they are all the same they were all men who were sent by God to deliver a message to their people. Now Christians claim he is God. But they understand Moses to be a messenger of God as we do Muhammed so that is where the similarity lies. From what they give us. But anyways we do not need the bible to affirm this or belief this the Quran says it. And if the bible says some things in line with the Quran. Alhumdulilah. there is some of the original teachings in there and it is from the same source so at some point on certain things they would have to agee.

If Muhammad may this comparison between himself and Moses, then I would indeed call "him" shallow.

Allah made the comparison in our book ie. the Quran. Again we do not need the bible but there are some things that are contained which coincide. Like the 1st commandment in Exodus. this is a belief in Islam. And the context of the statement therein are mentioned in the Quran or hadith. To worship nothing but God, no graven images, to not worship anything from the sky the earth and sea below this is Tawhid roughly. this is what Abraham taught. Now are all Christian denominations practicing this principle. No.

If it is just your own opinion/interpretation or that of Muslims in general, then only this interpretation/comparison is shallow. This is usually consider propaganda, to elevate your prophet and your religion. If it is not propaganda, then why post these list of comparisons to justify? Does Muhammad compare himself with other propehts? Do you see Joshua or Elijah comparing themselves with Moses from their own mouth? Like: "I am equal or better than Moses."

Again Allah made the comparison and I gave you the example. If they are all Messengers sent by God teaching people to worship one God. And Allah mentions Moses and Jesus as men who did this and Muhammed came after them saying the same thing then it is what is is. They are the same in that aspect.

It is one thing for a group of people elevate their prophet's position, but it is totally different if Muhammad try to elevate his own position.

i think i already commented on this.

I don't think it is Allah who make this comparison, otherwise, your god is playing silly favoritism game, and to my mind even more petty and shallow. A god should be aloof of such petty comparison.

How is it favortism when Allah says they are all the same.

Muhammad or any prophet should be judge on their own merits, not on past prophet. That's why I think your comparisons to be shallow, and nothing more than self-justification for your prophet and your religion in this world.

Who is judging them on their merits. Their merits were given to them by Allah and they all did what He asked them to do. Which is submit and tell your people to worship Me and only Me. Their virtues and merits are the same, now there are differences obviously in events and their dealing with people and outcomes. But above all they are the same.

Do you understand what I am saying? I hoped that you are not offended by my posts in regarding to this list of comparisons, but I do see your list as a negative point.

Kinda but you are looking at it from a very standoffish angle. We say they are all the same Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, Adam, Nuh, Muhammed etc. But since they the Christians have elevated Jesus to not just a prophet but to also Allah himself and not just that but the Holy Spirit which according to Quran is the angel Gabriel while at the same time still give Moses the characteristics of a man and Messenger of God in their text. Then because of this they can no longer be comparable on that basis so that is why we say they are more similar to each other. For Moses is still a man, a very righteous man and messenger but he is not God. Now of course this depends on your belief as to whether he is God or just the son. But that is another issue that I will let you the Christians settle and once you guys come to a consensus about it then I will comment on your stance in that particular issue.

Plus the bible says after this statement in Deut that a prophet shall not arise from the children of Israel similar to Moses. And there are many reasons why. Muhammed never said he was better than Moses or Jesus or anyother Messenger or Prophet. They are the same. But as I said because of Jesus's elevated position within Christianity we are at odds with the comparison. We say Moses, Jesus, Mohammed were all men and the same. Where in Christianity Moses is a man and jesus is God and since we believe Muhammed is His last Messenger and a continuation of the Messages of the previous Messengers Muhammed is more like Moses. Now when they the Christians elevate Moses to that level then I believe it would be more plausible.

Peace, I hope this helps. Again remember we have the Quran and do not need the Bible to prove to us anything. This is just to show Christians the similarities and affirming the Prophethood of Muhammed by showing the similarities between him and Moses peace be upon them all.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Islam- is there not a passage in the Quran where a messenger (rasool) bearing a book (kitab) is mentioned, not being mentioned specifically as Mohammed? i think it's towards the end of the Quran- a Baha'i friend directed be to this passage. i will try to find it for you.

Of course other Messenger and prophets were given books but if you do not list the ayat we cannot tell you which one the verse is talking about. And it could be in general because many messenger were sent bearing books 315 to be exact.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

and another page of the same source, citing aditional Quranic passages interpreted as pretaining to Bahaullah.

http://bahai-library.com/books/announcement.quran/13.html

Be careful when you interpret the Quran from other than the Messenger and his companions and the three righteous generations. These are what we call bidah or innovations. We do not accept the interpretations of anyone other than the Prophet and his companions he taught.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Nope.... you cannot remove what was never there in the first place.

Why do you seem so desperate to prove the validity of your prophet by twisting the scriptures that you don't even believe in? Or perhaps your motive is to attempt to discredit the beliefs of others by attempting to twist and change their scriptures to fit what you think yours say? I don't know as I cannot know your motives except by what you post here. But you are only kidding yourselves if you think the verses you quoted are mention of Muhammed. They are not and they never will, no matter how much or how often you try to twist them.

It is not that they are trying to twist it. The characteristics are mentioned. Why are they not him. There are many verses talking about people and prophets coming why are you so quick to assume they are all about Jesus when other prophet came before him mentioned in the old testament. Christians themselves are guilty of twisting the words so do not be so quick to cast blame when you yourselves are guilty of twisting and altering the texts for your own personal gain. do some history on the compilation of the text read some of Bart Ehramans books one in particular "The Orthodox corruption of Scripture" Listen to someone who has actually examined the text the Vatican will not allow the layman to see.

 

[nawab]

ok, for the sake of argument - i agree that with that their are no mentions of muhammad in the OT & NT even thought i am not convincied why Muhammadim is refered as god in Song of Solomon. but anyway

even though i had already proven the bible is wrong and incorrect full of contradictions

by the way, you people think that i am doing a properganda i am just sharing my view points you can also prove me wrong. i am not do any conspiracy -

i believe i had proven the bible is not completely the word of god.

and why are you arguing on something that you do not belive if i am doing a transparent agenda then you are a Hypocrite.



Nawab

That's the whole point, nawab.

"Muhammad" is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah, or in any part of the Tanakh. "Jesus" is also not mentioned anywhere in the Torah or in the Tanakh.

You, both Muslims (and Christians) based your points on interpretation of a fraction of the prophecy, tiny snipping, while ignoring the prophecy as a whole. You have taken your so-called prophecy out of context, when you ignore the surrounding passages, or the entire chapters.

For example, you use Deuteronomy 18:15-22, but you, Islam and other Muslims ignore the early part of chapter, from verse 1 to 14. Deut. 1-14 is relevant in understanding the whole chapter. But you take small part and try to force your meaning into it, thereby taking the whole text in chapter 18 out of context.

Muslims make this mistake, who like quoting and misinterpreting the scriptures, for nothing more than your own agenda. I have seen Christians done the same thing. Anyone can force any sort of meaning into small passages.

It sound too convenient to me that you would claim that these passages are about the your prophet and yet, at the same time, trying to discredit another religious scriptures as being "corrupted". I am not a Jew nor Christian, and even I can see your transparent propaganda.

:sorry1: but I don't buy your claim of you are "not trying to validate" your prophet in the so-called corrupted scriptures, because that's clearly what you are doing, and that is promoting Muhammad. If you are not doing so (ie validating/promoting prophet), then we wouldn't be having this debate.

I am actually having this same argument, over and over again, over the same passages of Deuteronomy and Isaiah in other threads, and even in other forums. Nothing I see from Muslim perspectives are new or convincing. The arguments are weak, just as the Christian's quotes on Jesus in OT is weak.

 

[Snowbear]

Christians themselves are guilty of twisting the words so do not be so quick to cast blame when you yourselves are guilty of twisting and altering the texts for your own personal gain. ....

Just because there are Christians who twist the scriptures to meet their needs does not make it OK. It also does not make it OK (IMO of course) for Muslims to do the same.

Why do you feel it necessary to affirm your prophet to Christians by finding characteristics of him in a Bible which you otherwise find 'invalid?' So far, the only Biblical mentions I've found predicting the arrival of prophets like Muhammed is in passages such as this one...