Mohammed

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Just because there are Christians who twist the scriptures to meet their needs does not make it OK. It also does not make it OK (IMO of course) for Muslims to do the same.

I agree, but since the name is not mentioned how do you know any of the prophecies are talking about anyone we ascribe them to. Many of them do not say jesus by name. One calls him Emmanuel. Yet they ascribe them to jesus. Why is it so impossible for it to be describing Muhammed.

Why do you feel it necessary to affirm your prophet to Christians by finding characteristics of him in a Bible which you otherwise find 'invalid?' So far, the only Biblical mentions I've found predicting the arrival of prophets like Muhammed is in passages such as this one...

As I said the issue is we really do not need the bible to affirm anything for us. We have the Quran to affirm it for us and it is sufficient. And even if is was at one time and no longer is the bible has went through so many alterations and changing of the text that there is no telling what once was contained in it and is no longer present. You and I have no way of knowing. the oldest known texts are copies of copies.

The question should be raised "Were there going to be any prophets who came after Jesus?" If the answer is yes then who is he then. For example If you read in Isaiah 21:7 (I believe) there is a famous prophecy about the prophecy of Isaiah when he saw in a dream the chariot of horses, assess, and camels. Now some Christians have told me that this is refering to the arrival of Jesus(assess) and Moses (horses) but they never say who was riding the camel. If the other two are prophet what prophet rode a camel. Muhammed rode a camel what other prophet is known for riding a camel. Now this does not mention either by name but theys are attributed to them. We say the one who rode the camel is Muhammed. Now if the answer is No there are no more coming after him til his return. I have to ask the question, why when Jesus (pbuh) was asked about it did he not say no there are no more to come after me? He said you would know the true prophet by his fruits. So to me it sounds like someone was coming after him. Who would affirm his as a sign from God upon the Jews.

Also the bible is not completely invalid for there are many things contained within it that are supported by the Quran. It is just a altered text which cannot be used as a definitive of absolute truth because of the alterations and mistranslations. Also you must realize according to Islamic history the Jews of Madinah knew the arrival of the Prophet was coming as did many Christians which is why many settled in that area. If you just be a little patient with me. I am posting the Islamic history from Abraham to Muhammed and will be detailing these points in detail. But briefly the Jews in Madinah used to tell the Aws and Khazraj the two arab tribes of Madinah that when the expected prophet comes they will rid Madinah of them. So when they heard of the Prophethood of Muhammed they wanted to swear allegiance to him before the Jews did. And we have many narrations from Jews in our text detailing how many of the elders of the Jews knew he was the Prophet but most of them refused the Message because of arrogance and hatred. We also have the story of the Persian fire worshipper Salman al Farisi who was a fire worshipper and became a Christian and was told about the land of the expected Prophet. it is a beautiful story insha Allah I will post it.

But there are also other verses in the bible that describe the most important events in Muhammed life. [how god shone from mount Paran with 10,000 saints which is a description of the conquest of mecca. how a unlettered man was given the book which is from god. There are others insha Allah I will mention them in another post] Many times we as muslims use this verse in Deut. 18:18 for as I stated earlier because of the raised level of Jesus we feel because of the attributes you give to Jesus, Muhammed is closer to Moses. Also the bible states that no Prophet will come from the children of Moses like unto Moses. I apologize this is from memory and I do not know the exact verses but I will get them for you. Just please remind me in a message or something.

But as I said we as muslims really do not need the bible to affirm our Prophet to you. The Quran affirms as well as many events in his life affirm him for us and will for you if you get all the right information from the right sources and are taught it correctly. the Issue is Allah says in the Quran that his name is mentioned in your scriptures. Now HE DID NOT SAY THE BIBLE. The bible was taken from over 250,000 manuscripts none of which the public is allowed full access to truly give it a true scholarly textual analysis. People are not allowed to study or copy or take more than 1 scripture at a time to compare them. this is a great secret what are they hiding. give us all the manuscripts they have and let us go through them all with a fine tooth and comb and see if he truly is not in the scriptures. for the bible is just what they took from them not counting the texts that existed in the beginning of christianity which the church deemed apocrypha.

Again that is another issue, but it is something that should be taken into consideration before anyone just outright says he is not in the scriptures. How would you know. do you speak Greek or Latin. Have you been to the vatican and went through all the archives of religious text and scriptures. NO ONE HAS. Except those who are there safeguarding the secrets from the public, and they are definitely not going to tell.

Peace.

 

[Snowbear]

I agree, but since the name is not mentioned how do you know any of the prophecies are talking about anyone we ascribe them to.

By that same logic, how can you say any of the prophecies you think say so are talking about Muhammed? They don't mention him by name either.

But as I said we as muslims really do not need the bible to affirm our Prophet to you.

Then why are there so many threads and websites and books that attempt to do just that?

On that same note, why is it so important for muslims to keep using the same old rhetoric about the invalidity of the Bible as you once again did in your last post? Why do you feel it so necessary to keep doing this? It does nothing for validating the Quran, as many of the same statements can be made about it, though it is rare to see any Muslim actually achnowledge that fact. You will also be hard pressed to get those Christians who believe the Bible is the Word of God to ever reject it as such just because of what the holy book of another religion says.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

By that same logic, how can you say any of the prophecies you think say so are talking about Muhammed? They don't mention him by name either.
Then why are there so many threads and websites and books that attempt to do just that?

Not sure.

On that same note, why is it so important for muslims to keep using the same old rhetoric about the invalidity of the Bible as you once again did in your last post?

Snowbear this is a fact established by scholars. If you have an issue take it up with them. They have confirmed this information from the texts they were allowed to analyze.

Why do you feel it so necessary to keep doing this?

Do what? tell you what the most knowledeable about your scriptures say about your book.

It does nothing for validating the Quran, as many of the same statements can be made about it, though it is rare to see any Muslim actually achnowledge that fact.

what fact the Quran unlike the bible has not changed. If you were to take all the religious texts of all religions in the whole world and throw them into a fire. Only the Quran would be brought back for it is the only one memorized in its entirety. It is the same Quran given to us by the Messenger. can the same be said for your text. The King James itself went through some altering The AV Bible, King James Version, AV 1611

What statements can be made. have any of our scholars altered the text or changed the words, taken out verses. Mistranslated or kept the original hidden from the public. No they haven't

You will also be hard pressed to get those Christians who believe the Bible is the Word of God to ever reject it as such just because of what the holy book of another religion says.

Well prove it is the word of God let me give you an example. do you feel the bible is inspired by God. If you say yes then I have to ask why in the two listings of the geneology of Jesus in Matthew 1:1 and Luke 3:21 is God's name not mentioned as the father of jesus. You have the names of 66 fathers and grandfathers of a man who's father is God. So are these grandfathers and fathers the fathers of God now. Why did God leave his name out? why are the listings not the same. You have different names and not the same number? did
God not know them. Explain please. Also what was Jesus's last words on the cross according to the testimony of the bible. Or who visited the grave of Jesus according to its testimony. Why are not the testimonies the same it is obvious that some have to be lying or confused or not really inspired. Who saw what at the grave site according to this "absolute true testimony of God" you call the bible from the 4 witnessess(mathew mark luke john). According to scripture is John record or witness true or not true. Are we justified by our deeds or do we need work according to the scriptures. If you are having trouble finding the verses let me know and i will give them to you. How would you know what to do when there are contradictory laws and principles. This is very confusing for us as muslims and even many christians I know.

Just tell me that the bible is an absolute accurate and true account of what happened with no contraditions in testimony of witnessess. Because would not the testimony of Gody be absolutey accurate and true. Or does He make errors like this.

 

[gnostic]

by the way, you people think that i am doing a properganda i am just sharing my view points you can also prove me wrong. i am not do any conspiracy -

You are, if you are trying to promote Muhammad who is never mentioned in the Bible, and you are if you keep referring to the Bible as being corrupted.

i believe i had proven the bible is not completely the word of god.

I have never set out to prove that the Bible to be the words of god. Only a complete idiot would think that the Bible was written by god or by angel.

Each individual book (in the Bible) was written by man, not by God or by angel. It speak of relationship between man and god. A prophet or scholar who compile his book may have recorded some words of God, but it was written by man. It is a testimony of what god probably said to the prophet, but in no way was it written by god. Of course, there would be contradiction, because each book is probably written by different person and written in different time.

And because they biblical books, letters were written by different people and different times, you have to examine these books, individually, not as a whole.

Only some idiot preachers, who don't know about anything about literature, would make stupid claim that the bible was written by God.

I also don't think the Qur'an to be written by God or angel. It was also written by man.

I have only stated that you misrepresent the passages, which you think it is referring to Muhammad.

The fact of the matter, is that I am dubious of all so-called holy scriptures, whether they be Torah (or Tanakh), Bible or Qur'an, especially in the so-called divine revelations and testimonies of so-called miracles.

and why are you arguing on something that you do not belive if i am doing a transparent agenda then you are a Hypocrite.

I loved mythology.

Especially the Greek and Norse myths. I had started my own website in mythology, called Timeless Myths, which required me to read a great deal of ancient and medieval literature, to piece together the myths as a whole. Although, I prefer to read heroic myths and legends, I have a great deal of interests in reading about myths of the gods and their origin (ie the Creation of gods and men, and Flood).

These last couple of years, I have been shifting through Mesopotamian and Egyptian religions/myths and can see a lot of resemblance between these myths and the myths/legends of the Abrahamic religions.

I see that events of the Genesis, as partly as mythology (especially the Creation and Flood), partly as legend and partly as history. Trying to find fact from the myths and legends is not possible.

I have read some of the Qur'an version of the same events of Genesis, and see that Muhammad have coloured it with his own version - more exaggeration than the Genesis. I also see that Muhammad and his compilers have added a great deal of Jewish folklores and pre-Islamic myths into the whole Abrahamic "Creation".

Called it curiosity, nawab. I look at Abrahamic religions with the same eyes when I look at Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian or Greek myths. The Torah, Bible and Qur'an fascinate me, but it doesn't mean that I believe in it. I seeing your religion and that of Judaism and Christianity, through the literature, not through faith.

If you think calling me hypocrite would make you happy then so be it. : hamster :

The hypocrisy of saying that the Jewish and Christian bible as wrong, and your Islam is right, sound like the childish challenge of "My dad's car is bigger than your father's". You keep saying that you want peace, and don't want to offend other people's religion, and yet you say that their religion or their scripture are wrong (and still use their scriptures to justify your prophet). Then that's hypocritical.

 

[YmirGF]

I had started my own website in mythology, called Timeless Myths, which required me to read a great deal of ancient and medieval literature, to piece together the myths as a whole.

Honest folks, Gnostic's wonderful sites are absolutely fascinating. You really owe it to yourself to check them out. (Although he could devote much more space to the stories about Ymir... of course.)

Back to the op though. In all honesty, Snowbear is right imho. The only reference to Muhammed in "Christian" writings are the cautions regarding "false prophets".

 

[jewscout]

even though i had already proven the bible is wrong and incorrect full of contradictions

the quran also contains contradictions:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html

 

[TashaN]

An old anti-religion website.

 

[jewscout]

An old anti-religion website.

would you prefer a christian or jewish website?:sarcastic

 

[TashaN]

would you prefer a christian or jewish website?:sarcastic

Meaning?

 

[Islam]

By that same logic, how can you say any of the prophecies you think say so are talking about Muhammed? They don't mention him by name either.

Jesus called the comforter at one point in the Bible as the praised one. The praised one in Arabic means Mohammed!

 

[Islam]

And the prophet Mohammed was the first person to bear the name Mohammed btw. Peace be upon him and upon al the prophets. Jesus was Gods prophet. he was not God, God is far most exhalted to need a son and or any partner. Jesus said when they told him "you are good" he replied and said "why do you say I am good, only God is good". It also states in the Bible at some point that God is not a man. Jesus calls God the fathe at some points, so some say this means literally. Yet at other places in the Bible as Christians know other prophets have called God the father, meaning that God created them, far exhalted is he.

Again even if you debate that Jesus spoke of Mohammed, what about the verse in deutronomy. The prophet like Moses. Mohammed was like Moses more then Jesus was! And any incomon thing between Jesus and Moses, Mohammed also shares!

In short, worship God not what he created. Thats Islam.

 

[Islam]

And yes the Bible has been altered, and we believe in that, but that doesnt mean all of it. Where it doesnt contradict with Islam we believe in it. Where it starts speaking of womens breasts that taste like wine and David pbuh having sex with his neighbors wife I think it was, that we dont believe in. Plus if the comforter was the Holly Ghost and the Ghost guides all Christians, shouldnt the Bible be flawless since hs supposedly guided them when writting it? Then how come it has so many contradictions?!

 

[AbuQuteiba]

the quran also contains contradictions:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html[/quote]

This site is pathetic, btw. Very weak.

 

[jewscout]

This site is pathetic, btw. Very weak.

no more weak than some of the arguements being made on this thread.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

And yes the Bible has been altered, and we believe in that, but that doesnt mean all of it. Where it doesnt contradict with Islam we believe in it. Where it starts speaking of womens breasts that taste like wine and David pbuh having sex with his neighbors wife I think it was, that we dont believe in. Plus if the comforter was the Holly Ghost and the Ghost guides all Christians, shouldnt the Bible be flawless since hs supposedly guided them when writting it? Then how come it has so many contradictions?!

For the exact same reason that any book, including the Q'uran would have contradictions, human error. In the case of the Bible, one should expect even more contradictions than in the Q'uran because the Bible had so many different authors while the Q'uran had only one.

B.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

For the exact same reason that any book, including the Q'uran would have contradictions, human error. In the case of the Bible, one should expect even more contradictions than in the Q'uran because the Bible had so many different authors while the Q'uran had only one.

B.

The Quran has no contradictions.

 

[TashaN]

no more weak than some of the arguements being made on this thread.

If you think these arguments are weak so i think reasoning and discussing the issue would be a good deal to start with, not just escaping and starting going off-topic.

No one is asking you to answer some misconceptions founded in websites, it just arguments made by someone and you can prove for him that he was wrong if he really was. So easy, isn't it?

 

[gnostic]

Here is one Muslim interpretation of Isaiah 29:12, which is quite popular among Muslims, but I found to be very weak in interpretation, and taken quite out of context.

(Nawab had used this quote in this thread, post 55, to indicate this referred to Muhammad, but I have seen other Muslims use this same quote, elsewhere.)

and the writing is delivered to him that is not learned, saying: 'Read this, I pray thee'; and he saith: 'I am not learned.'

...and if the document is handed to the one who who cannot read and he is asked to read it, he will say, " I can't read."

I think that many Muslims used this quote to say that this quote identifies their prophet Muhammad, because he was illiterate.

Now, I have a lot of problem with this interpretation: One, in which Muslims has basically ignored the surrounding passages in this chapter (29), particularly from verses 1 to 14. When you read all these verses completely, you will find that you have taken verse 12 out of context. The original meaning of verse 12 is lost, because of the way you have interpreted it.

This argument is weak, if you read all the verses in this chapter, and you realise that it has absolutely nothing to do with a prophet who can't read.

I can quote these passages to explain my position, but I think I will summarise most of it and quote only the vital part for understanding the verses, and leave the rest of you read entire Isaiah 29, yourself.

From verses 1-8, God is speaking against Ariel, another name for Jerusalem, of how he will have enemies of Judah (and Israel) laid siege to the city. There would be war upon Zion.

The important part is here:

Act stupid and be stupefied!
Act blind and be blinded!
(They are drunk, but not from wine,
They stagger, but not from liqour.)
For the LORD has spread over you
A spirit of deep sleep,
And has not shut your eyes, the prophets,
And covered you heads, the seers;
So that all prophecy has been to you
Like the words of a sealed document.

If it is handed to one who can read and he is asked to read it, he will say, "I can't, because it is sealed"; and if the document is handed to one who cannot read and he is asked to read it, he will say, "I can't read."

My LORD said
Because that people has approached ME with its mouth
And honored ME with its lips,
But he has kept its heart far from ME,
And its worship of ME has been
A commandment of men, learned by rote -
Truly, I shall further baffer that people
With bafflement upon bafflement;
And the wisdom of its wise shall fail,
And the prudence of its prudent shall vanish.

(Verse 12, is coloured brown, but the bold part is the text that I wanted to emphasis.)

Why do Muslims completely ignore 9-11 and then 13-14?

If verse 12 really applies to Muhammad, then so should 9-11 and 13-14. Then, he is only the one who can't read (verse 12), but Muhammad would also be the fool, who is drunk and stagger, without touching liquor (in verses 9-11, "...Act stupidly, and be stupified. Act blind, be blinded..."), and he doesn't understand or know how to interpret the messages before him because God will baffle him (in verses 13-14). You can't use this single verse applies to Muhammad, but not the rest.

If you read Isaiah 1-14, then you would realise that 29:12 is less than flattery, if this is really about your prophet, especially if you take the surrounding text into consideration.

The way I've interpreted these passages is that the Jews in Isaiah's time, will be punished for not heeding his teaching and for disobedience, by letting his enemies the people of Jerusalem, ie Mt Zion or Ariel. Verse 12, as well as 11, has to do with Jews disregarding warning, not to do with "a prophet who can't read".

After verse 14, (verses 15-24), has to do offering hope to the Jews, despite punishing them for disregarding his warnings.

I suggested that Muslims here to read carefully 1-14, before making sensational claim, that are not only taking the original message out of context, but also very misleading via a single quote.

If you think these arguments are weak so i think reasoning and discussing the issue would be a good deal to start with, not just escaping and starting going off-topic.

No one is asking you to answer some misconceptions founded in websites, it just arguments made by someone and you can prove for him that he was wrong if he really was. So easy, isn't it?

I know that you are responding only to Jewscout, The_Truth, but I hoped that you, Islam and Mujahid Mohammed can understand why I also find your insight and interpretation in using OT to be weak.

 

[TashaN]

I know that you are responding only to Jewscout, The_Truth, but I hoped that you, Islam and Mujahid Mohammed can understand why I also find your insight and interpretation in using OT to be weak.

Whether you see it as weak or not, this is just your own opinion and as you see others' points and opinions as weak so i don't know whether it occurred to you that yours might be as well or not.

Each one of us has a point somehow and no one can deny that or dismiss any argumtsn aside totally without any clear evidence.

Therefore, while it's great and healthy to discuss and enlighten each other, it's not reasonable for anyone to dismiss or reject what other people might came with if they could prove their point without any evidence to show why he/she rejected it. Don't you agree with me?

 

[Islam]

quran also contains contradictions:

there is not one single contradiction in the Qur'an. Many Muslim scholars have said that all it takes is one contradiction in the Quran and they will leave Islam, all produced were proven wrong.

not one single one, sorry to disapoint you, unlike the old testament and new testament, the Qur'an is errorless.
here are the rebutals.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/quranerr.htm