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Mohammed

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Islam, Sep 26, 2006.

  1. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    I wouldn't say that this prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy 18 was Jesus anyway...let alone Muhammad.

    Moses' brothers were Israelites, not Ishmaelites, so therefore, this would discount Muhammad. The prophet Moses and God were talking was more likely to be Moses' successor, Joshua.
     
  2. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Says who we say that nothing in it can be believed? It can be believed as in the parts which dont differ then the Qur'an and Islam. So Pauls blasphemies can't be taken for example. No Christian doesnt know that the Bible has been corrupted. Your own scholars know that themselves. The Bible which was revealed upon to Mohammed seazes to exist between us. Sure some of the messages are still there, but not all. But thats not our topic, and you cant argue about the Bibles efficiency.

    You didn't reply to the verses I quoted. Why are they speaking of if not Mohammed? All ur saying is that jesus said beware of false prophets. Okay, we are aware of false prophets. Yet Mohammed wasn't one. All you have to do to find that out is read his life story. And if he wasnt the one jesus spoke of who was jesus p.b.u.h speaking of? The Holy Ghost who has done Christianity no good other then dividing it into a billion sects each claiming they are right? Or the worship of "fathers" and asking THEM for forgiveness instead of God?

    If Mohammed was a fake prophet, his message was bound to perish. Yet, we find Islam as the fastest growing religion on earth, and quite frankly, the most complete one. Exactly like what Jesus said, he said that when he comes, he will guide you into all truth.
    Why would one claim prophecy if they weren't a prophet? Money? Power? Women? Kingdom? Fame? Maybe all of them. The Arab pagans, came to Mohammed and said:

    “...If you want money, we will collect enough money for you so that you will be the richest one of us. If you want leadership, we will take you as our leader and never decide on any matter without your approval. If you want a kingdom, we will crown you king over us...” Only one concession was required from Muhammad in return for that, to give up calling people to Islam and worshipping God alone without any partner. Wouldn’t this offer be tempting to one pursuing worldly benefit? Yes it would and if he was a fake prophet he would have immediately accepted.
    Yet he replied:
    "I swear by the name of God, O Uncle!, that if they place the sun in my right-hand and the moon in my left-hand in return for giving up this matter (calling people to Islam), I will never desist until either God makes it triumph or I perish defending it."

    You know it astonishes me, you clame that God is just, of course he's just, he's God! Yet you say that Jesus died for everyones sins! So the rappest, or the man who killed your mother, killed you, raped children, all those stuff, is basicaly free to go? Didn't jesus die for his sins? Or Jesus died for "some" people's sins? If he died for some peoples sins, doesnt that make him, unfair, since you claim he's God?
     
  3. Islam

    Islam Member

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  4. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    I have a problem with this sacrifice and the Christian doctrine that becoming a Christian, you can neglect your responibility for crimes (or sins) committed, and still go to heaven. The very idea of murderers and rapists of being saved, simply for baptism and repetence, and not face real justice for crime committed and that good honest people who are not Christians would go to hell, is actually sickening.
     
  5. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Just like Islam, Jerrell, you are misleading and mis-interpreting the text.

    Isaiah wasn't writing about Jesus any more than he was writing about Muhammad. There are several other ocasions where in Isaiah, the "My Servant" is written, and it is not Jesus (or Muhammad). And it often not speaking of the future but about the past.

    [/FONT]
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    [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]I certainly don't believe any of the above quotes, or any part of chapters within the Book of Isaiah, have anything to do with either Jesus or Muhammad.

    Even Isaiah himself was called God's servant:
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
    [/FONT]Or even King David:
    As to your quote, Jerrell. You have ignored the rest of the chapter (42).
    And then:
    Clearly, the whole chapter is talking about Jacob and the land and people of Israel (and Judah). The current situation is that the people of Israel as recorded in 2 King that the Israelites worshipped idols, so he allowed outsiders beset and attack Israel/Judah, which is why it talked about giving Israel to the enemies: "Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers?"

    Like Islam, you are cutting small snippet of passage, here or there, and put stamp of Jesus on the text, while ignoring the rest of chapter. To me this is just like when Islam does with Muhammad. You both employ the same technique, but have different propaganda.
     
  6. JC-47

    JC-47 New Member

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    your thinking is a bit flawed gnostic. Those who accept Christ Jesus into their hearts are saved but that doesnt mean they are free from the conseqences of there actions here on earth. Yes, they will go to heaven if they truly believe, but they still have to own up for their sin.
     
  7. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    Who said anything about neglecting responsibility for crimes/sins? The worldly responsibility for atoning, doing the time in jail or somehow repaying those who were wronged (if possible) is still on the person who committed the crime... the eternal forgiveness is a spiritual gift from God.
     
  8. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    To JC-47 and Snowbear.

    If Christian doctrine emphasised that a good, honest non-Christian go to hell, but an evil Christian who committed some sort of atrocity go to heaven, simply because of his so-called penance or atonement, and fear of hell, then I have serious misgivings of God's mercy and sense of justice. Justice is not only blind, but so is his mercy.
     
  9. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    if i don't buy that jewish prophecy is talking about jesus why the deuce would i believe islamic reinterpretation of my scriptures when the quran is obviously in contradiction to the Torah, therefore not meant for the Jewish people.
     
  10. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    I have heard of this comparison (and the other comparisons) before, but at another site.

    What does being married and having children has to do with prophet, or even being prophet like Moses?

    What does fighting battles have to do with being a prophet? This is not a requirement of being a prophet.

    This is an ridiculous comparison. And Muhammad is not like Moses at all. Moses only had one wife, but Muhammad had many.

    Did Muhammad perform any of the same miracles as Moses? Brought the plagues to Egypt? Parted the Red Sea, or more precisely the Sea of Reeds? Quails and Manna to feed the Israelites? Did Muhammad cause water to flow from the rock?

    Was Muhammad a leader among the Israelites or Jews? Did he bring the Israelites to Canaan/Israel/Judah/Judaea or whatever the name of their country?

    As I have stated previously in other threads, the Deuteronomy have nothing to do with either Jesus or Muhammad.
     
  11. JC-47

    JC-47 New Member

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    Gnostic, you talk about a good person, but no man is good. we are all sinners who need God desperately.
     
  12. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    Oh! :eek: You're one of those Christians who like to point finger, and accusing people that they are sinners. :cover:

    Well, that's because you're a Christian and still can't tell difference between right and wrong. :p

    If you wish to call yourself a sinner, then that's really not my problem. If you're obsessed with your own sins...as well as everyone else's...:rolleyes: then that's also not my problem.

    Just don't expect everyone to measure a person's worth in the same way as you. So please don't judge me, using your yardstick.
     
  13. Islam

    Islam Member

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    There are a number of remaining references to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in the Bible, one where he is even mentioned by name in the original Hebrew (Song of Songs 5:9-16)! "Cheeko mame tah kim, vechulo Mohamadim." This means "His language is most sweet, and he is Muhammad." In the English translations of the Bible, Muhammad's name is translated as "altogether lovely."
    Is this not true my Jewish couzin friend?
     
  14. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    Song of Songs 5:9-16 is talking about The Holy One, Blessed be He...G-d...not a man.
    and the word is:
    מַחֲמַדִּים
    Macha'madim
     
  15. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    What Jewscout said!

    I think it's revealing that Muslims in this forum have several times made it a point to point out that the name 'Muhammed' means 'Holy one, Revered one, Blessed one' as it shows us all the esteem you show the man ;)

    That you are using a reference to God Himself in the Bible as a reference to the man Muhammed was prophesied reveals much about who you put your trust in :eek:
     
  16. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Mohammed was sent for all of humanity, not for the Jews only.

    You know very well that its pronounced Mohamadim.

    Mohammed does not mean the Holy one, God is the Holy one. Mohammed means the praised one.

    My trust is in God and his prophets.
     
  17. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Hmm I think what you're looking for is a clone of Moses not a resemblance.
    The verse said like, not exactly, not a clone but like.
     
  18. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    no it's not!

    i don't tell you how to pronounce arabic do i??:areyoucra

    but if you want a lesson in pronouncing hebrew...
    מַחֲמַדִּים
    Macha'madim

    now remember boys and girls, hebrew is read from right to left...
    ok, the first letter is a "mem" it makes an "M" sound, beneath that is a dash called a "Patach" it makes an "Ah" sound, like "father"

    so we have "Ma"

    then we have a "Chet", that makes a sound like your trying to get some phlem outta the back of your throat, and is often transliterated as a "Ch" or an "H" with a dot under it. The dots and dashes beneath it are another vowel symbol called a "Chataf Patach", it's sorta like a shortened sound of the "Ah" from the Patach (that's the best way i know to describe it)

    so we now have " Macha' "

    after that is another "Mem" with another "Patach"

    so now we have "Macha'ma"

    after that is a letter called a "daled", it makes a "D" sound. Below it is a dot called a
    "Chirik". That w/ the letter "Yud" (it looks like an apostrophy) makes an "EE" sound.

    so now we have "Macha'madi" or "Macha'madee"

    ending it off we have a final "mem" that makes, you guessed it, an "M" sound

    so all together we have
    Macha'madim or Macha'madeem or Machamadim

    now we could go into variations of pronounciation between ashkenaz and sephardi hebrew...and don't forget the accent is typically placed at the end of a word too..

    but you get the point.
     
  19. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    Well, you are the one who is making comparisons between the 2 prophets (3 if you include Jesus).

    I have not compared Moses with Jesus, because I don't think Deuteronomy 18 is talking about Jesus. Equally, I don't think your supposition that it is Muhammad is correct.

    I just find the whole argument/comparison of marriage and family as weak and shallow, don't you think so?

    Your other comparisons are just as weak. Being a great prophet doesn't mean victories in battles, unless the victory is mirculous one. Muhammad winning a battle against large enemy force, doesn't mean the victory came from Allah or anything else. There have been a number of such numerically inferior force winning against large foes. The Battle of Marathon between Athenians and Persians. Alexander the Great pitted against the might of Persia. Many Roman generals, including Julius Caesar had won battles with much smaller forces.

    Are they simply your view? The Muslims in general? Or is that what Muhammad think?
     
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