The Prophet had many miracles himself. You should read his life story and see for yourself. If my points are shallow, you make me a list of points of who you claim this verse was speaking of and the things in commin between him and Moses, I shall rest my case if he's more like Moses peace be upon him then Mohammed peace be upon him!
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Mohammed
- Thread starter Islam
- Start date
gnostic
The Lost One
Again, I'd repeat.
Are these comparisons, simply your view? Are they views by Muslims in general? Or did Muhammad make this comparisons, linking himself to Moses?
If Muhammad may this comparison between himself and Moses, then I would indeed call "him" shallow.
If it is just your own opinion/interpretation or that of Muslims in general, then only this interpretation/comparison is shallow. This is usually consider propaganda, to elevate your prophet and your religion. If it is not propaganda, then why post these list of comparisons to justify? Does Muhammad compare himself with other propehts? Do you see Joshua or Elijah comparing themselves with Moses from their own mouth? Like: "I am equal or better than Moses."
It is one thing for a group of people elevate their prophet's position, but it is totally different if Muhammad try to elevate his own position.
I don't think it is Allah who make this comparison, otherwise, your god is playing silly favoritism game, and to my mind even more petty and shallow. A god should be aloof of such petty comparison.
Muhammad or any prophet should be judge on their own merits, not on past prophet. That's why I think your comparisons to be shallow, and nothing more than self-justification for your prophet and your religion in this world.
Do you understand what I am saying? I hoped that you are not offended by my posts in regarding to this list of comparisons, but I do see your list as a negative point.
Are these comparisons, simply your view? Are they views by Muslims in general? Or did Muhammad make this comparisons, linking himself to Moses?
If Muhammad may this comparison between himself and Moses, then I would indeed call "him" shallow.
If it is just your own opinion/interpretation or that of Muslims in general, then only this interpretation/comparison is shallow. This is usually consider propaganda, to elevate your prophet and your religion. If it is not propaganda, then why post these list of comparisons to justify? Does Muhammad compare himself with other propehts? Do you see Joshua or Elijah comparing themselves with Moses from their own mouth? Like: "I am equal or better than Moses."
It is one thing for a group of people elevate their prophet's position, but it is totally different if Muhammad try to elevate his own position.
I don't think it is Allah who make this comparison, otherwise, your god is playing silly favoritism game, and to my mind even more petty and shallow. A god should be aloof of such petty comparison.
Muhammad or any prophet should be judge on their own merits, not on past prophet. That's why I think your comparisons to be shallow, and nothing more than self-justification for your prophet and your religion in this world.
Do you understand what I am saying? I hoped that you are not offended by my posts in regarding to this list of comparisons, but I do see your list as a negative point.
says hi.
nawab
Active Member
May Peace, Mercy and Blessings of god almighty be on all of you
My name is Asad, i am new to this site, so my greetings to all of you
i had heard that one brother had said that we muslims claim that the bible is corrupt yet we beliver in some of the prophices about Muhammad PBUH, see brother we dont say the entire bible is corrupt some parts are gods word yet through out the years they have been corrupted some parts are wriiten by Philosophers, Preists, Popes, Bishops, Historians, Saints and the list goes on
However, the bible was the word of god almighty but it was meant for a certain nation for a certain time.
Mathew 24:36 I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of israil
by the way, we do not deny every single verse, we just dont follw it - its just like
i dont use windows 95 or 98 but XP
Hope that cleared your misconception
My name is Asad, i am new to this site, so my greetings to all of you
i had heard that one brother had said that we muslims claim that the bible is corrupt yet we beliver in some of the prophices about Muhammad PBUH, see brother we dont say the entire bible is corrupt some parts are gods word yet through out the years they have been corrupted some parts are wriiten by Philosophers, Preists, Popes, Bishops, Historians, Saints and the list goes on
However, the bible was the word of god almighty but it was meant for a certain nation for a certain time.
Mathew 24:36 I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of israil
by the way, we do not deny every single verse, we just dont follw it - its just like
i dont use windows 95 or 98 but XP
Hope that cleared your misconception
Jerrell said:
nawab
Active Member
Salam alkuum my name is asad, i am new to this site, my greetings to all of you
My brother here has made a list but forgot to mention 1 major comparitive points
Work completed on earth -
Moses - NO
Muhammad - NO
Jesus - yes
Because jesus has to come and tell you Christians that he is not the son of GOD
My brother here has made a list but forgot to mention 1 major comparitive points
Work completed on earth -
Moses - NO
Muhammad - NO
Jesus - yes
Because jesus has to come and tell you Christians that he is not the son of GOD
Islam said:
gnostic
The Lost One
Islam used the word "acceptance". But this is based solely on which religion people belonged to, who accepted a particular prophet.
All three religions accept Moses. Islam speaks of Jesus being rejected by most Israelites. That's fair enough. But Islam should understand that the Israelites also don't accept Muhammad. No Jews accepted Muhammad during his lifetime. They never have. The Christians also don't Muhammad.
So this Muhammad: rejected then accepted is only accepted by the some Arabs in his time.
All three religions accept Moses. Islam speaks of Jesus being rejected by most Israelites. That's fair enough. But Islam should understand that the Israelites also don't accept Muhammad. No Jews accepted Muhammad during his lifetime. They never have. The Christians also don't Muhammad.
So this Muhammad: rejected then accepted is only accepted by the some Arabs in his time.
nawab
Active Member
My greetings to all of you again, i hope all of my friends here are in great health
certainly my freind here doesnt understand the meaning of acceptance of the Prohpet
when moses PBUH claimed to be a prophet sent by god did anyone oppose him - no
only the egyptians but the his own israiletes have accepted. To whom he was meant to sent for.
Now for Jesus PBUH when he said he is sent to revel the message, how many Christians were there, NONE. I personally dont believe that he was crucified but for the sake of arguement i say ok at the time of crucifiction how many christians - NONE
do you even know that this word CHRISTIANS was a nick name given by Roman Pagen to followers of CHRIST. Christian population only increased during the time of Emperor Constantine. this word Christan is no where to be found in the bible.EXCEPT ONCE. would you not call him a rejected prophet because his own did not accepted him
as he said in the Mathew 24:36 I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israil
If during my presentation i had hurt any Christian friends feeling i apologise sincerly from the bottom of my heart. i had no intentions of critizing but just informing the truth
wish you all in the way Jesus Chrsit wished his people
Hebrew Luke 15:24 Sholam ale kum
Nawab
P.S. Alamdullah Islam is the fasted growing religion the world - I would not classify him as a rejected prohpet because still people are converting to Islam
if you do not then you are quran 2:18 The deaf, the dumb, the blind neither will they understand
the bible says the same thing in gospel of Mathew 13:13 hearing he hear not, seeing the see not they will never return to the true path
certainly my freind here doesnt understand the meaning of acceptance of the Prohpet
when moses PBUH claimed to be a prophet sent by god did anyone oppose him - no
only the egyptians but the his own israiletes have accepted. To whom he was meant to sent for.
Now for Jesus PBUH when he said he is sent to revel the message, how many Christians were there, NONE. I personally dont believe that he was crucified but for the sake of arguement i say ok at the time of crucifiction how many christians - NONE
do you even know that this word CHRISTIANS was a nick name given by Roman Pagen to followers of CHRIST. Christian population only increased during the time of Emperor Constantine. this word Christan is no where to be found in the bible.EXCEPT ONCE. would you not call him a rejected prophet because his own did not accepted him
as he said in the Mathew 24:36 I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israil
If during my presentation i had hurt any Christian friends feeling i apologise sincerly from the bottom of my heart. i had no intentions of critizing but just informing the truth
wish you all in the way Jesus Chrsit wished his people
Hebrew Luke 15:24 Sholam ale kum
Nawab
P.S. Alamdullah Islam is the fasted growing religion the world - I would not classify him as a rejected prohpet because still people are converting to Islam
if you do not then you are quran 2:18 The deaf, the dumb, the blind neither will they understand
the bible says the same thing in gospel of Mathew 13:13 hearing he hear not, seeing the see not they will never return to the true path
gnostic said:
gnostic
The Lost One
Most of the Christians in Jesus' time were Jews, but most Jews didn't accept him.
But the questions remain. Did the Israelites or Jews accepted Muhammad as a prophet in his lifetime? I don't any did, so Muhammad was "rejected".
You didn't upset me. Beside I'm not a Christian. I'm agnostic. Be as frank or blunt with your view as you want. Just done personally insult other RF members.
This is "debate" topic, so you are allow to express your view. It is "discussion" topics that you can't debate on an issue.
But the questions remain. Did the Israelites or Jews accepted Muhammad as a prophet in his lifetime? I don't any did, so Muhammad was "rejected".
nawab said:
You didn't upset me. Beside I'm not a Christian. I'm agnostic. Be as frank or blunt with your view as you want. Just done personally insult other RF members.
This is "debate" topic, so you are allow to express your view. It is "discussion" topics that you can't debate on an issue.
nawab
Active Member
My greetings to you, my friend i was not specifically talking about you, i was giving you a comparison. as far as i know i didnt and will never insult anyone, my faith does not allow me to do that.now back to your question
during the time when Prophet Muhammad PBUH claimed Prophethood during his time werent there many Christian and Jews travelling to arabia to debate with him, many converted so you giving me a wriiten statement
that Muhammad was rejected, i found it unauthentic.
Michael Hicthard Hart wrote a book, call 100 most influential people, guess who was number 1 and who was number 3.he was not a muslim but yet.anyway this is a debate for some other day.
for your question DID OR DID NOT ALL THE ISRAILETES CONVERTED TO ISLAM yes some did, some didnt - neither did all of arabia did even where he was born, so allah is the one who gives the light, we are just spreading his word
But, for you my friend, i dont think you understand the word REJECTED, muhammad just because first 10-50 then 300 then 100,000 people accepted him and the rest of the population didnt so he is a rejected prophet - this is ABSURD
lets see about JESUS at first were 10-20 people and then what he went for a break or what then the Christian population increased only after Constantine how many years is that after Christ, so just because he converted more Christians then jesus - we cannot say that constantine is better.If you get this book the 100 most influential people the answer is there - so there is no rush
How about Moses, did the Egyptians accepted him, no right
hope that answers your question
during the time when Prophet Muhammad PBUH claimed Prophethood during his time werent there many Christian and Jews travelling to arabia to debate with him, many converted so you giving me a wriiten statement
that Muhammad was rejected, i found it unauthentic.
Michael Hicthard Hart wrote a book, call 100 most influential people, guess who was number 1 and who was number 3.he was not a muslim but yet.anyway this is a debate for some other day.
for your question DID OR DID NOT ALL THE ISRAILETES CONVERTED TO ISLAM yes some did, some didnt - neither did all of arabia did even where he was born, so allah is the one who gives the light, we are just spreading his word
But, for you my friend, i dont think you understand the word REJECTED, muhammad just because first 10-50 then 300 then 100,000 people accepted him and the rest of the population didnt so he is a rejected prophet - this is ABSURD
lets see about JESUS at first were 10-20 people and then what he went for a break or what then the Christian population increased only after Constantine how many years is that after Christ, so just because he converted more Christians then jesus - we cannot say that constantine is better.If you get this book the 100 most influential people the answer is there - so there is no rush
How about Moses, did the Egyptians accepted him, no right
hope that answers your question
gnostic said:
gnostic
The Lost One
God wasn't interested in the Egyptians worshipping him. God had only covenant to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to fulfilled, in regarding the land of Canaan being one-day belonging to their descendants. That meant taking the Israelites out of Egypt. Even Moses didn't fulfilled his role, of leading his people into Canaan; that job was left to Joshua, his successor.
If Deuteronomy 18 was talking about any real "prophet", then I think it was more likely to be Joshua, and not Jesus or Muhammad. The "brethren" meant his fellow-Israelites, not someone 2000 years later.
So Egyptians accepting or rejecting Moses is really not the point.
nawab
Active Member
greetings to you all
the way i hear it from you is like god is rascist and he preferes israiletes over egyptians - i wouldnt like a god like that who is not interested in some nation and perefers some nation
if he says that moses was only meant for israilietes at that tome i can understand and egyptians were made as villians so that to set a example for us - i totally agree.
my friend said, Moses dint do his role, Joshua did it, from what i know it was not Joshua but the british who helped the jews to thier promised land.
in the book of Deutronomy 18:18 - the word prophet was mentioned and it doesent matter what you think, we have to follow what the holy scriptures say, because they were gods word, your and my words are not gods words - you understand right.
and joshua was not a prophet.
Hope that cleared your misconception
the way i hear it from you is like god is rascist and he preferes israiletes over egyptians - i wouldnt like a god like that who is not interested in some nation and perefers some nation
if he says that moses was only meant for israilietes at that tome i can understand and egyptians were made as villians so that to set a example for us - i totally agree.
my friend said, Moses dint do his role, Joshua did it, from what i know it was not Joshua but the british who helped the jews to thier promised land.
in the book of Deutronomy 18:18 - the word prophet was mentioned and it doesent matter what you think, we have to follow what the holy scriptures say, because they were gods word, your and my words are not gods words - you understand right.
and joshua was not a prophet.
Hope that cleared your misconception
gnostic said:
gnostic
The Lost One
Why do you think Joshua wasn't a prophet?nawab said:
Did God say Joshua wasn't his prophet? Did Muhammad say Joshua was God's servant? Or simply you (and other Muslims)?
To me it sounds increasingly like Muslim propaganda.
Unless the Deuteronomy has "Muhammad" named as the mysterious prophet, then you are merely guessing that this passage referred your prophet. My interpretation has as much as validity as yours, in regard to this new prophet. My is not based on belief on any religion that I followed; yours, on the other hand, can be considered as nothing more than Islamic propaganda, and merely to elevate Muhammad, instead of proper logic and analysis.
To me it is strange that you would use the OT or Torah to validate your prophet, and yet Muslims often called these texts "corrupted".
I could also use the assumption that this prophet is Elijah or John the Baptist, or even Joseph Smith. Heck, I even use these say passages and say that Hitler or Mickey Mouse is the new prophet from Deuteronomy if I really want to.
The new prophet has no name, but the assumption that this prophet is Muhammad is skating on thin ice.
nawab
Active Member
may peace, mercy and blessings of allah be on all of you.
greetings to all of you, elders, brothers and sisters
i am enjoying my conversation with my friend here, i hope he can tell me his name so i can address him with respect
did god sent Arch Angel Gabreil to revel any messages to Joshua - NO
did he(JOSHUA) brought any new law - NO
the bible say Prophet Joshua - No
did god commanded anything to Joshua - No
brother, i had never used the quran to debate with you - i just used the OT & NT
to put forth my points i never quoted anything from the quran to you - it would be meaningless to you. i am not propergating anything i am just sharing my points if you can prove me wrong why not,
whats there to propergate - i find no sense in it when we dont belive in Joshua, but All prophets that came after Prophet Moses - you say that it could be Zacharias, John the baptist, Elijah - it could be as you say - but of this is true then Judaism is out of the list which means they are not complete and should have to move on to the next revelation the New testament. you just made my job easy. hey guys come on forget Deutronmy 18:18 i am bored of this - lets quote something else how about
Prophet Muhammad is prophised by name in the HEBREW Song of Solomon 5:16
Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."
His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."
Book of Issiah - 29:12 -
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."
When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned -
PLS DONT TELL ME IT WAS JOSHUA NOW
by the way this language is HEBREW - to understand the scriptures first we should understand in which language the scriptures were revelead in. The only problem I see is these days we are too much into english - many also think that Christianity is a White, English religion. ENGLISH IS NOT EXPRESSIVE ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE
now to the new testament - assume all jews are now Christians
John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".
John 16:12-14
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".
now these were what JESUS said dont tell me it was Joshua - oh what am i saying he was long before - dont tell me these prophices were to the Anti-Christ, Satanists, George Bush, or what ever.
from my case presented to you above to defend yourself you can either say the bible and the quran is right or both are wrong or like what i says some parts of the bible are wrong and yet some are gods words
DONT THINK THAT BECAUSE THESE ARE PROPHISING OUR PROPHET THATS WHY I AM QUOTING THESE TO VALIDATE HIM - THIS WILL ANSWER YOUR AND MOST OF THE CHRISTIAN AND JEWS
First time i am using the quran to quote something to you all in the quran it says 7:157
Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".
- muhammad was a illiterate he could not read or write - he could only speak broken arabic - he couldnt have possibly found mistakes in the OT & NT so it must be divine and further more the arabic version of the OT & NT wasnt available till 700 years later.
now simply the quran i like to challenge you to find one mistake from the quran thats all i am saying - common do me a favor - or just do all a favor - as the qurans says it likes to be challenged produce 1 sign like this.
come on mickey mouse, grow up was Joseph Smith a brethren of moses or maybe hittler and mickey mouse was like you say.
I believe i answered all your questions and for anyone speculating our little disscusion not debate, if i hurt his/her feelings i apologise sincerly from the bottom of my heart
I bless you all with the greetings of JESUS CHRSIT Hebrew Luke 15:24
SHOLAM ALEKUM
NAWAB
greetings to all of you, elders, brothers and sisters
i am enjoying my conversation with my friend here, i hope he can tell me his name so i can address him with respect
did god sent Arch Angel Gabreil to revel any messages to Joshua - NO
did he(JOSHUA) brought any new law - NO
the bible say Prophet Joshua - No
did god commanded anything to Joshua - No
brother, i had never used the quran to debate with you - i just used the OT & NT
to put forth my points i never quoted anything from the quran to you - it would be meaningless to you. i am not propergating anything i am just sharing my points if you can prove me wrong why not,
whats there to propergate - i find no sense in it when we dont belive in Joshua, but All prophets that came after Prophet Moses - you say that it could be Zacharias, John the baptist, Elijah - it could be as you say - but of this is true then Judaism is out of the list which means they are not complete and should have to move on to the next revelation the New testament. you just made my job easy. hey guys come on forget Deutronmy 18:18 i am bored of this - lets quote something else how about
Prophet Muhammad is prophised by name in the HEBREW Song of Solomon 5:16
Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."
His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."
Book of Issiah - 29:12 -
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."
When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned -
PLS DONT TELL ME IT WAS JOSHUA NOW
by the way this language is HEBREW - to understand the scriptures first we should understand in which language the scriptures were revelead in. The only problem I see is these days we are too much into english - many also think that Christianity is a White, English religion. ENGLISH IS NOT EXPRESSIVE ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE
now to the new testament - assume all jews are now Christians
John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".
John 16:12-14
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".
now these were what JESUS said dont tell me it was Joshua - oh what am i saying he was long before - dont tell me these prophices were to the Anti-Christ, Satanists, George Bush, or what ever.
from my case presented to you above to defend yourself you can either say the bible and the quran is right or both are wrong or like what i says some parts of the bible are wrong and yet some are gods words
DONT THINK THAT BECAUSE THESE ARE PROPHISING OUR PROPHET THATS WHY I AM QUOTING THESE TO VALIDATE HIM - THIS WILL ANSWER YOUR AND MOST OF THE CHRISTIAN AND JEWS
First time i am using the quran to quote something to you all in the quran it says 7:157
Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".
- muhammad was a illiterate he could not read or write - he could only speak broken arabic - he couldnt have possibly found mistakes in the OT & NT so it must be divine and further more the arabic version of the OT & NT wasnt available till 700 years later.
now simply the quran i like to challenge you to find one mistake from the quran thats all i am saying - common do me a favor - or just do all a favor - as the qurans says it likes to be challenged produce 1 sign like this.
come on mickey mouse, grow up was Joseph Smith a brethren of moses or maybe hittler and mickey mouse was like you say.
I believe i answered all your questions and for anyone speculating our little disscusion not debate, if i hurt his/her feelings i apologise sincerly from the bottom of my heart
I bless you all with the greetings of JESUS CHRSIT Hebrew Luke 15:24
SHOLAM ALEKUM
NAWAB
gnostic said:
gnostic
The Lost One
Did God sent Gabriel to Moses?nawab said:
No. God talked directly to Moses. Gabriel is never mentioned anywhere in the Torah, and neither God nor Moses need Gabriel or any other angels for that matter, in order to become a prophet.
God also talked directly to Joshua, as it can be seen in number of passages in the Book of Joshua. Who is more important God or Gabriel?
A lot of the other prophets got revelation directly from God, not from archangels or otherwise.
You didn't understand what I am saying. That passage in Deuteronomy is open to interpretation. Anyone who can articulate, can persuade anyone to believe that prophet could possibly be. Deuteronomy's passage doesn't give any hint of who or when this prophet will appear. We can only make assumption and interpretation.
nawab
Active Member
Prophet Moses was the only prohpet who god spoke to directly thats why he is refer
to in the Quran as kalimullah - talks with allah and no other prophet god spoke to directly then moses - there were are revelealed messages by Gabriel - if Gabreil is not mentioned in the OT that only proves that the OT is not complete.
now the problem is Joshua was the deutronomy 18:18 refering to joshua - ok joshua could be a prophet because not all the prohpets were mentioned in the quran so I cannot certainly say if joshua was a prophet or not
but if deutronomy 18:18 was mentioned to joshua - then it only proves that moses is not the final messenger of judaism and judaism was not complete and the prophets were continued till jesus as Christians say or muhammad as Muslims say.
but you still didnt answer my questions about the song of solomon refering to Muhammad by name and not joshua - i am not quite convinced if we can put mickey mouse and hittler in this catgerory.
and my challenge friend about one mistake from the quran.
Asad
to in the Quran as kalimullah - talks with allah and no other prophet god spoke to directly then moses - there were are revelealed messages by Gabriel - if Gabreil is not mentioned in the OT that only proves that the OT is not complete.
now the problem is Joshua was the deutronomy 18:18 refering to joshua - ok joshua could be a prophet because not all the prohpets were mentioned in the quran so I cannot certainly say if joshua was a prophet or not
but if deutronomy 18:18 was mentioned to joshua - then it only proves that moses is not the final messenger of judaism and judaism was not complete and the prophets were continued till jesus as Christians say or muhammad as Muslims say.
but you still didnt answer my questions about the song of solomon refering to Muhammad by name and not joshua - i am not quite convinced if we can put mickey mouse and hittler in this catgerory.
and my challenge friend about one mistake from the quran.
Asad
gnostic said:
gnostic
The Lost One
Gabriel only appeared by name in the Book of Daniel, as well as Michael. Previously which was composed around the 6th century or later. Before that time, there were no names given to angels. In fact that were no name given to Satan too. Raphael and Uriel have only made their first appearance in apocryphal literature. Apocrypha are post-Exile literature.nawab said:
Early biblical writings gave no personal names to angels and demons, including Satan, until they were exposed to the influences of Zoroastrianism, at first via the Neo-Babylonians during the Exile, then later by the Persians themselves when Babylon fell to Cyrus. Zoroastrianism had heirarchy of angels and demons, and were given personal names. Judaism at this period then began developing their own complex system of angelelogy, which reached its height in the 3rd-2nd century BCE, most noticeably in the works of the Enochic literature.
Complex system of angels and demons by this period of Judaism had also influenced Christianity, and then obviously later to Islam.
Sorry, nawab, but there is no literary evidence of Gabriel or any other named angels existed before the Exile, so I really can't take your assumption seriously in regarding to the OT being incomplete in regarding to Gabriel. Gabriel does appeared in other Jewish literature that are not considered to be canonical by the Jews, such as the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, and the Talmudic Haggada. Even Jews today don't the Haggada, because it is based on Jewish folklore.
There are some parallel in the Haggada with the Qur'an.
I don't take seriously about Gabriel visiting Muhammad...please don't be offended...because I also don't take seriously about Gabriel's participation in the NT, in announcing the coming birth of John the Baptist, and then later of Jesus' birth. Anytime I see the names of Gabriel or other angels, I am skeptical of those texts.
jewscout
Religious Zionist
nawab said:
based on your logic: if Gabreil is not mentioned in the OT that only proves that the OT is not complete.
the omission of a key character from scripture seems to make the document "incomplete", therefore since the quran fails to mention Joshua as a prophet, then the quran, as well, is incomplete.
nawab said:
except that, from a jewish perspective, both the christian gospels and the quran contradict the torah, therefore neither is meant for the jewish people.
nawab
Active Member
greetings to you all, first of all my freind said it would offend me if gabriel is appeared in the NT or Quran - it would not offend me at all because debates are very much encouraged and quite efefctive for understanding.
now back to my friend heres quote is, if the quran didnt mentioned all of the prophets names so quran is not complete - quran is not about being complete or not - it is perfect. does it has any mistakes - i dont know why Joshuas name is not mentioned in the quran but Prophet muhammad PBUH said verbally there were 124,000 Prophets before him - it is mentioned in Hadith (a secondary Islamic Resourse after the quran)
till, today science says that we have objections with the biblical quotes but none with the quranic quotes - DR Keith Moore
ask yourself how many mistakes are there in the OT & NT- shall i mentioned my list
but as i have challenged you before for only one mistake in the quran
NAWAB
P.S. the Authencity of a scriptures is determined not by is Joshua or Gabriels names are mentioend but how many mistakes
now back to my friend heres quote is, if the quran didnt mentioned all of the prophets names so quran is not complete - quran is not about being complete or not - it is perfect. does it has any mistakes - i dont know why Joshuas name is not mentioned in the quran but Prophet muhammad PBUH said verbally there were 124,000 Prophets before him - it is mentioned in Hadith (a secondary Islamic Resourse after the quran)
till, today science says that we have objections with the biblical quotes but none with the quranic quotes - DR Keith Moore
ask yourself how many mistakes are there in the OT & NT- shall i mentioned my list
but as i have challenged you before for only one mistake in the quran
NAWAB
P.S. the Authencity of a scriptures is determined not by is Joshua or Gabriels names are mentioend but how many mistakes
jewscout said: