Michelle Malkin: Progressives and Hate Speech

[Kathryn]

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. Look to yourself before you point at others. I know I insult people. I'm honest about doing it. Not everyone is.

I guess the idea that you're "honest" about being insulting makes it all OK.

I think this guy might say the same thing about himself.

 

[Alceste]

The problem I have with this debate is, the Liberals are having a real problem separating the right from the mentally insane.

And that surprises you? lol. Maybe you need a new spokesman.

It would seem they would love to lump us all together and promptly eliminate us. This would expedite their agenda and all would be right with the world.

What enhances the progressive movement is hanging out with people of like minds. It gives them a sense that they are in the majority.

When our conservative members speak their minds, it reminds them that there is more than one opinion on issues. I believe they resent us for grounding them to the reality that they hold the minority opinion.

What a bunch of nonsense. Everybody enjoys meeting people with similar values. Nobody* takes that enjoyable feeling of belonging as an indication that everybody else should be persecuted or killed.

What "enhances the progressive movement" is that progressives desire to progress in the direction of civil liberties, peace and social justice. Your contempt for these values is incomprehensible, frankly, considering the alternative.

* except for authoritarians, regardless of their views on personal property.

 

[Alceste]

The problem I have is one of definitions. Terms like liberal, progressive, conservative, fascist, right & left (in terms of the political spectrum), etc., are notoriously difficult to define. As Revoltingest mentioned, historically liberal meant something much more like today's libertarian (see, e.g. Leftism: From de Sade and Marx to Hitler and Marcuse by Professor von Keuhnelt-Leddihn). Today, it is often used synonymously with progressive, leftist, or even democrat (the latter-most being the most incorrect and infrequent). Given the nebulous nature of these terms, it becomes all the easier to demonize one's opponents. For example, it is fairly common to place any oppressive regime on the right of the political spectrum. Properly speaking, though, many fascist regimes were born out of the foundation of much leftist thought (the french revolution), are (or were) collectivist systems, and are (or were) therefore more properly leftist institutions. Another common fallacy is to define various people who commit acts (usually violent) by who/what they are attacking, whether an institution, a person, a gathering, etc. A good example of this is recent attempts I have read by both the left and right to claim Jared Loughner as "a leftist" or "a conservative" given X or Y, rather than a more complete ideological system he adhered to.

In fact, he was just a mentally ill person. The pertinent question is not whose rhetoric may or may not have set him off, but why is it possible for untreated mentally ill people to attend public gatherings heavily armed in Arizona? If he had had access to medical treatment to control his condition, this would not have happened. If adequate controls were in place to ensure the unhinged are not entitled to carry loaded weapons, this would not have happened. If American gun-lovers were obligated to get their jollies out with hunting rifles and shotguns rather than automatic assault weapons and handguns (like Canadian gun-lovers), the casualties would have been fewer. If Palin didn't paint a target on Arizona and listed the names of people she wanted to unseat, this STILL would have happened (although possibly to different victims), because this person was mentally ill, heavily armed, violently inclined and legally entitled to wander the streets with the means and inclination to slaughter several innocent people in the space of a few minutes.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I can't believe the demonetization and vitriol right now. Some of this borders on hate speech.

Is it possible to rise above this? I respect the progressive movement, please excuse me if I don't follow along in lock step.

Where is the tolerance for different opinions?

 

[Kathryn]

If he had had access to medical treatment to control his condition, this would not have happened.

He had access to medical treatment to control whatever condition he had. Below you will find a link to many mental health programs available to ANYONE regardless of income level, in Tucson, Arizona.
CODAC Behavioral Health Services, Inc. - About CODAC

If adequate controls were in place to ensure the unhinged are not entitled to carry loaded weapons, this would not have happened.

I absolutely believe that there should have been more locally provided security for this event (and any such event) - and I suspect that local law enforcement agencies are doing a bit of deflecting of fault by pointing fingers at talking heads on television.

In fact, there was not one single police officer or security guard on duty or location at the time of the shooting.

If American gun-lovers were obligated to get their jollies out with hunting rifles and shotguns rather than automatic assault weapons and handguns (like Canadian gun-lovers), the casualties would have been fewer.

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, the Glock he was carrying is a semi-automatic - not an "automatic assault weapon." Not that it makes that much of a difference to the victims.

Furthermore, that very weapon is legal to own in Canada, even by individuals who are not in law enforcement.


Virginia Tech-type guns largely prohibited in Canada
There were 519 Glock 19s owned by individuals in Canada as of last November, with another 620 registered to gun shops and law enforcement agencies, according to Canada Firearms Centre data obtained by the Ottawa Citizen.

Three were reported stolen and never recovered.

The guns allegedly used in Virginia are both semi-automatics, meaning they fire one shot with each pull of the trigger and don’t have to be manually cocked between shots.

There are more than 213,000 semi-automatic handguns classified as “restricted” in Canada. They can be purchased by anyone who passes two levels of safety tests and undergoes background checks. Magazines for these guns are limited to 10 rounds in Canada.

Among them is the Glock 17, a firearm popular with police forces. It’s similar in design to the Glock 19 and fires the same 9-mm round, but has a longer barrel.
It is legally owned by more than 3,200 individuals in Canada, the data show.

Also,

Canadian Firearms info on glock 17, glock 18, glock 19, glock 20, glock 21, glock 22, glock 23, glock 24, glock 25, glock 26, glock 27, glock 28, glock 29, glock 30, glock 31, glock 32, glock 33, glock 34, glock 35, glock 36

Granted, it's harder to spontaneously buy such a gun in Canada because the background checks can take 45 days, but that wouldn't deter some people much.

I'm not arguing against the fact that the Canadian rate of crimes committed with a firearm are lower than that of the US, because that would be a ridiculous assertion.

But there are about 312 MILLION people in the US, compared to 34 million in Canada. The tricky part about controlling such a large and diverse population is to do so without unduly infringing the rights of the individual.

I do believe that there should be stricter background checks and waiting periods for firearms in the United States. I believe that would significantly cut down on "crimes of passion."

But even those laws on Canada's books didn't stop the Dawson College shootings, or the Ecole Polytechnique massacre, or the shooting spree at Concordia University.

Dawson College shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[gnomon]

I guess the question of whether or not "violent political speech" like images of guns pointed at Bush's head or Palin's crosshairs (actually surveyor symbols) are actually the cause of violent actions much like the argument that violent video games cause violence isn't important.

I also read that people say that if a politician was the target than the motive was political in nature. I think that's true for the most part. However, one of the most infamous would be assassins was motivated by getting a date. Anyone remember John Hinckley, Jr.

 

[Reverend Rick]

What "enhances the progressive movement" is that progressives desire to progress in the direction of civil liberties, peace and social justice. Your contempt for these values is incomprehensible, frankly, considering the alternative.

I hold no contempt for progressives. During my time here at RF, I have even changed my mind on some of the issues.

I believe you are the intolerant one when it comes to different ideals other than your own.

I will give credit where it is well deserved. You do debate with reason and facts most of the time. When you stray from that format and resort to demonetization of the opposition, it is truly disappointing. You are so much better than that. It severely discounts your integrity when you resort to these common liberal tactics.

I say this with the utmost respect for you, please accept it in the spirit it is given.

You have made many valid points in the past without stooping to that level.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

He had access to medical treatment to control whatever condition he had. Below you will find a link to many mental health programs available to ANYONE regardless of income level, in Tucson, Arizona.
CODAC Behavioral Health Services, Inc. - About CODAC


There is a huge problem with mental heath treatment in this country. How do you expect someone to find services if they are crazy and they don't want to go.

This is not only a funding problem but a civil rights problem.
In my state you can only hold somebody if they are an immediate danger to them selves or others. Soon as they are somewhat under control they are let right back out on the street. With full knowledge of every one evolved that they are just going off there meds as soon as possible and be a danger once more.

Free services do not mean that they are good services. Many of these services are just hotel rooms in the bad part of town. With a day program they can go to if they want. Most of these type of people just spend a lot of time in jail. Prision is the biggest American mental health treatment program.

I just heard on npr that in my state a full 1/3 the money put aside by the state, for mental health, is used to stabilize the mentally ill so they can stand trial. Then their treatment is prison.

 

[Magic Man]

Oh, good. Another thread for our conservative members to pretend that the fact that at some point some liberals did and said some not-so-nice things about republicans means two thing: one, that those things are equivalent to the crap we see from conservatives today, and two, that they are even relevant right now when clearly it's the right who's doing by far the most harm with their violent and ignorant rhetoric.

 

[Alceste]

When you stray from that format and resort to demonetization of the opposition, it is truly disappointing.

You're awfully high and mighty for someone who just insisted progressives want to kill everyone who disagrees with them.

 

[Kathryn]

Well, I can see this thread has gone down the toilet in the usual manner.

 

[Reverend Rick]

You're awfully high and mighty for someone who just insisted progressives want to kill everyone who disagrees with them.

I'm living proof that is not true.

 

[Sunstone]

You're awfully high and mighty for someone who just insisted progressives want to kill everyone who disagrees with them.

If Rick indeed said somewhere that Progressives want to kill everyone who disagrees with them, Alceste, I am sure he was not at that moment expressing his real thoughts and feelings on the matter. Rick is much better than that. He is anything but a hater. Except when it comes to my moral and intellectual superiority. He absolutely hates my moral and intellectual superiority. But apart from that, he's not a hater.

 

[Alceste]

The problem I have with this debate is, the Liberals are having a real problem separating the right from the mentally insane. It would seem they would love to lump us all together and promptly eliminate us. This would expedite their agenda and all would be right with the world.

Have I misunderstood what Rick meant by "eliminate"? This is the post I was referring to.

 

[Sunstone]

Have I misunderstood what Rick meant by "eliminate"? This is the post I was referring to.

I think yours is a fair and reasonable reading -- but only because Rick has apparently chosen his words poorly. I can't really speak for Rick, but my strong sense of him as a person, Alceste, is that he never, in his own head, demonizes people who disagree with him. So I think the problem here is that he's failed to choose his words carefully, rather than that he actually believes Liberals want to liquidate him. That's my 2 cents at least.

The only person Rick demonizes is me, but of course, he is provoked into doing that out of his understandably immense envy for my many excellent and outstanding traits and qualities. Indeed, Rick's greatest flaw in life is that he absolutely envies the fact he did not have the same blessed genes as I did.

 

[Alceste]

I think yours is a fair and reasonable reading -- but only because Rick has apparently chosen his words poorly. I can't really speak for Rick, but my strong sense of him as a person, Alceste, is that he never, in his own head, demonizes people who disagree with him. So I think the problem here is that he's failed to choose his words carefully, rather than that he actually believes Liberals want to liquidate him. That's my 2 cents at least.

The only person Rick demonizes is me, but of course, he is provoked into doing that out of his understandably immense envy for my many excellent and outstanding traits and qualities.

Sure, I also get the sense that Rick's not sincere when he chooses his words poorly.

OTOH, I'd invite him to point out where I said anything that warranted his lecture about "demonizing" groups of people, particularly in light of the fact I was responding to this specific post.

 

[Sunstone]

OTOH, I'd invite him to point out where I said anything that warranted his lecture about "demonizing" groups of people, particularly in light of the fact I was responding to this specific post.

That's a fair question. So far as I can see, you did not warrant his lecture about demonizing groups of people.

 

[Luminous]

I think liberals should know better than to show their ignorance through hate speach...hopefully they have something other than (YOU LIE) to backup their statements.

 

[Alceste]

That's a fair question. So far as I can see, you did not warrant his lecture about demonizing groups of people.

That's what I thought. In fact, AFAICR, I made two general statements of fact that apply to everybody under the sun and one sympathetic statement about the "agenda" of progressives. If I'm going to get a lecture either way, I can be way more offensive...

 

[Luminous]

It seams to me that liberals aren't as good with propaganda as conservatives.
nothing better for propaganda than "Boo Hoo Me".