Men and Abortion

[Fool]

What questions?

i'm not satisfying your need for proof. it's their. just go back and look; otherwise move on.

you've enjoyed to much of playing pretend.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I was using your own logic: it's potential human life. Like sperm and egg are also potential human life, one step back.

A sperm cannot become a human life on its own. I guess we will disagree with that.

If you don't know what it is, I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion.

We're taking about support for policies that promote the right to life.

Two seconds on Google:

Universal health coverage (UHC)

Universal health care - Wikipedia

My definition of universal health care may be different than yours. With the two sources you gave they have multiple options as well. What are you talking about? The second source you gave says this:

Universal health care (also called universal health coverage, universal coverage, or universal care) is a health care system in which all residents of a particular country or region are assured access to health care. It is generally organized around providing either all residents or only those who cannot afford on their own, with either health services or the means to acquire them, with the end goal of improving health outcomes.[1]

So is your definition is providing health care for only those that need it or for all people? I am for providing health care to people that cannot afford it on their own and want it.

Because sex isn't a crime (consenting between adults, obviously). It's not some immoral act that harms others and thus requires that we receive some punishment for our bad behavior. That's how you're talking about it right now. Think through that. Should having a baby be a punishment? Do you want a world filled with people who have children they never wanted?

I never claimed sex was a crime or immoral. But having sex has consequences just like every other action a person takes. We force fathers to take care of the children they do not want, why does the mother get a pass?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

in your post, yes you did. people are born. foetuses are not. that is the marker. that is where it has been. you and other believers are trying to move it.

No, I never claimed when a person became a person. I don't know when that is and you don't either. Do you think abortion should be limited to a certain week?

people don't live in a womb, in an environment where they are physically linked to another for all their needs.

You are correct.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

i'm not satisfying your need for proof. it's their. just go back and look; otherwise move on.

you've enjoyed to much of playing pretend.

Ok, then I assume you don't want to have a conversation anymore. That is your right.

 

[Left Coast]

A sperm cannot become a human life on its own. I guess we will disagree with that.

A zygote cannot become a human life on its own either. The logic is identical.

My definition of universal health care may be different than yours. With the two sources you gave they have multiple options as well. What are you talking about? The second source you gave says this:

Universal health care (also called universal health coverage, universal coverage, or universal care) is a health care system in which all residents of a particular country or region are assured access to health care. It is generally organized around providing either all residents or only those who cannot afford on their own, with either health services or the means to acquire them, with the end goal of improving health outcomes.[1]

So is your definition is providing health care for only those that need it or for all people? I am for providing health care to people that cannot afford it on their own and want it.

I prefer a system that covers everyone equally, as even people who "don't want it" end up having medical emergencies that burden the system. This is usually accomplished through single payer systems but other public/private partnership arrangements accomplish a similar goal.

If you're going to make women have babies they don't want, society should be willing to cover the cost of the necessary medical care, at bare minimum.

I never claimed sex was a crime or immoral. But having sex has consequences just like every other action a person takes. We force fathers to take care of the children they do not want, why does the mother get a pass?

No, we don't. We force some fathers to pay child support, which is very different than actually taking care of a child. No mom gets a "pass" from responsibility for their child once they are actually born. Same as no father has responsibility for a child until it's born.

 

[Fool]

No, I never claimed when a person became a person. I don't know when that is and you don't either. Do you think abortion should be limited to a certain week?

You are correct.

due to technology a fetus is possibly viable at 22 weeks outside of the womb but only on artificial life support. but again, you're placing something on an artificial life support. so the life is artificial, not exactly viable.

viable

1828, from French viable "capable of life" (1530s), from vie "life" (from Latin vita "life," from PIE root *gwei- "to live") + -able. Originally of newborn infants; generalized sense is first recorded 1848. Related: Viably.


people generally get a trial, where they are questioned of the circumstances of why they acting/acted as they did. you have already made yourself judge and jury.

psychologically mature people don't live in a black and white world, they don't try to control an actual someone who has been appointed poa, or those who have been entrusted to another.


people aren't toys to play with as you believe

 

[Fool]

Ok, then I assume you don't want to have a conversation anymore. That is your right.

you assume so much. i'm not surprised. just because you stopped answering questions of me, i didn't of yours until you noticed. then you tried to call me out on it.

i'm still responding. you're still assuming, believing. actions speak louder than words.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If you had experienced someone you know commiting suicide you would never support legalizing it.
If you had experienced someone being so blind as to not get someone help and letting them die you would not support that genocide either. I've seen both. And it's not love to let someone die.

We helped my terminally ill grandmother die with dignity and on her own terms. I would do it again in a heartbeat and I hope someone will do the same for me, one day.
After all, we do it with our pets. Why not afford the same respect and dignity to our human loved ones?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

A zygote cannot become a human life on its own either. The logic is identical.

No, I have been saying on context in a woman's body. A zygote has around 35% chance of becoming a person and being born. A sperm or egg have 0% chance of becoming a person and being born.

I prefer a system that covers everyone equally, as even people who "don't want it" end up having medical emergencies that burden the system. This is usually accomplished through single payer systems but other public/private partnership arrangements accomplish a similar goal.

If you're going to make women have babies they don't want, society should be willing to cover the cost of the necessary medical care, at bare minimum.

I am forced to get car insurance, does that mean society should pay for any repairs of my car? If someone needs medical care and cannot afford it they should be able to get care for that person.

No, we don't. We force some fathers to pay child support, which is very different than actually taking care of a child. No mom gets a "pass" from responsibility for their child once they are actually born. Same as no father has responsibility for a child until it's born.

Yes, we force men to pay child support for children they do not want but women can make a different choice and have an abortion and not pay for children they do not want. I think both parents have a moral responsibility to pay for and care for the child before and after it is born.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

due to technology a fetus is possibly viable at 22 weeks outside of the womb but only on artificial life support. but again, you're placing something on an artificial life support. so the life is artificial, not exactly viable.

viable

1828, from French viable "capable of life" (1530s), from vie "life" (from Latin vita "life," from PIE root *gwei- "to live") + -able. Originally of newborn infants; generalized sense is first recorded 1848. Related: Viably.

Yet my argument does not rely on viability.

people generally get a trial, where they are questioned of the circumstances of why they acting/acted as they did. you have already made yourself judge and jury.

psychologically mature people don't live in a black and white world, they don't try to control an actual someone who has been appointed poa, or those who have been entrusted to another.

I am not trying to control anyone. I am trying to protect the unborn that I can make a case has a right to life. The problem is that you cannot even acknowledge that is my view, see your comment below.

people aren't toys to play with as you believe

I do not believe this.

 

[Left Coast]

No, I have been saying on context in a woman's body. A zygote has around 35% chance of becoming a person and being born. A sperm or egg have 0% chance of becoming a person and being born.

A sperm or egg inside a woman's body do not have a 0% chance of becoming a person. If that were true, none of us would be born. Think it through. All of us were once an egg and a sperm.

I am forced to get car insurance, does that mean society should pay for any repairs of my car?

No, because you have insurance to pay for that. Thats the entire point of insurance. It's also the entire point of the individual mandate of the ACA which the Trump admin gutted.

I also believe we ought to have a right to healthcare. We don't have a right to drive. So they're quite different things.

If someone needs medical care and cannot afford it they should be able to get care for that person.

That's nice. But what that requires to be economical in practice is healthcare coverage for all so that they can regularly see a doctor when needed.

Yes, we force men to pay child support for children they do not want but women can make a different choice and have an abortion and not pay for children they do not want.

If a woman has an abortion, the father is not responsible for child support. What are you talking about?

 

[Fool]

Yet my argument does not rely on viability.

what is your argument relying on?

I am not trying to control anyone. I am trying to protect the unborn that I can make a case has a right to life. The problem is that you cannot even acknowledge that is my view, see your comment below.

If you're protect, have at it. Otherwise stop moving the goalpost for someone else.

 

[Wildswanderer]

We helped my terminally ill grandmother die with dignity and on her own terms. I would do it again in a heartbeat and I hope someone will do the same for me, one day.
After all, we do it with our pets. Why not afford the same respect and dignity to our human loved ones?

I'm not talking about someone who is going to die regardless as in someone who is only being kept breathing by a machine. I'm talking about letting someone die who could be saved and recover.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

A sperm or egg inside a woman's body do not have a 0% chance of becoming a person. If that were true, none of us would be born. Think it through. All of us were once an egg and a sperm.

No we were not. How can a person be two places at once? A sperm or egg cell do not turn into people left alone.

No, because you have insurance to pay for that. Thats the entire point of insurance. It's also the entire point of the individual mandate of the ACA which the Trump admin gutted.

Yes, and I have insurance because that is the responsible thing to do. Plan ahead for future possibilities that I may not want to happen.

I also believe we ought to have a right to healthcare. We don't have a right to drive. So they're quite different things.

We do not have a right to healthcare in the US so they are the same things. You wanting healthcare to be a right does not make it a right.

That's nice. But what that requires to be economical in practice is healthcare coverage for all so that they can regularly see a doctor when needed.

I have said if someone cannot afford coverage or care they should be able to get that care.

If a woman has an abortion, the father is not responsible for child support. What are you talking about?

A woman can choose to not take care of her child by having an abortion.
A man if he decides he cannot take care of the child for the same reasons women do he is forced to financially take care of it (which he should be).

Why the double standard? Some men have the same life issues that women frequently give for having an abortion such and financial or mental issues.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

what is your argument relying on?

Basically the zygote has a 35% chance or so of becoming a person, I think that possibility should be protected because people have a right to life once the process has begun. Now, this is a summary and not an actual argument.

If you're protect, have at it. Otherwise stop moving the goalpost for someone else.

I am not doing that. I am just saying prochoice people tell me why I am prolife and they are wrong most of the time because they do not listen to what I am saying.

 

[Fool]

Basically the zygote has a 35% chance or so of becoming a person, I think that possibility should be protected because people have a right to life once the process has begun. Now, this is a summary and not an actual argument.

I am not doing that. I am just saying prochoice people tell me why I am prolife and they are wrong most of the time because they do not listen to what I am saying.

Oh that is so dreamy.

You want to protect 35% of a chance against a 100% viable person.

 

[tarasan]

Should men who have casual sex and father a child be required, made law, to financially and physically raise their unwanted and or unplanned babies? forced to coparent?

They have PR so they need to in some way financially provide for and raise their children.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Oh that is so dreamy.

You want to protect 35% of a chance against a 100% viable person.

You are comparing two different things. It is about a right to life, the mother is living the unborn has a right to a life. If a pregnant person is in danger of severe harm then the women should be able to decide what medical procedure is best including abortion.

 

[stvdv]

Should men who have casual sex and father a child be required, made law, to financially and physically raise their unwanted and or unplanned babies? forced to coparent?

You need two to Tango.

So this is a simple and clear scenario

Definitely no law needed

If a man has casual sex with women
Then this implies
That the women accepted "casual sex"

Hence both agreed on casual sex...no child, just fun, so this even implies an agreement on abortion in case it does happens (morning after pill etc..there are plenty of months (4) to act responsible before life force enters and even more (9) before the child is born, better don't wait too long to decide).

If woman decides (changes her mind) afterwards and she wants to have the baby (or fooled the man from the start) then of course the man need not pay child support.

But woman should be free to keep their child, her choice, so only her responsibility

And man should not be able to sue her for changing her mind, BUT also the woman (government) should not be able to sue the man for sticking to their mutual agreed plan (implied abortion)

IF only the man wants to keep the baby THEN bad luck for him. Let it be a good lesson for him to make a decision and stick to it. You can't force women to produce babies against their will

Note: Don't conclude from above that I would choose above "free sex choices" for myself, but if that's what others choose then it seems a clear cut case to me.

Make your "sex plan" and stick to it, or change the plan BUT take full responsibility (the one who does not stick to the deal made)

 

[Left Coast]

No we were not. How can a person be two places at once? A sperm or egg cell do not turn into people left alone.

We are made of millions of cells. You know this, yes?

A zygote does not turn into a person left alone either.

Yes, and I have insurance because that is the responsible thing to do. Plan ahead for future possibilities that I may not want to happen.

Neat. Women also do this.

We do not have a right to healthcare in the US so they are the same things. You wanting healthcare to be a right does not make it a right.

I didn't say it did. You were asking me what I wanted.

I have said if someone cannot afford coverage or care they should be able to get that care.

And I explained to you how to make that happen.

A woman can choose to not take care of her child by having an abortion.
A man if he decides he cannot take care of the child for the same reasons women do he is forced to financially take care of it (which he should be).

Why the double standard? Some men have the same life issues that women frequently give for having an abortion such and financial or mental issues.

So wait, is your argument that a man who impregnates a woman should be able to force the woman to have an abortion? Or force or her keep the child? That's the world you want to live in?

The obvious, obvious difference is that he's not pregnant. It's not his body at stake. So yeah, very obviously the pregnant person ought have more say over what happens to her own self than someone else. I really have to explain that?