Men and Abortion

[Clizby Wampuscat]

it was a response to your questions.

I understand that. What does it mean?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

let me be very clear. i don't like abortion. i don't like being saddled with someone telling me what i can and can't do with my body. i do unto others as i would have done unto me.

Would you have wanted to be aborted?

i'm saying that the parent has to make the decision and the parent has to live with the decision. i do not want to make that decision for someone else. but that won't change the fact, that spiritually or physically that fetus isn't a human.

Spiritually means nothing until the spiritual can be demonstrated. But the fetus is human. What other species is it?

you can project your beliefs all you want. won't change a thing but you empathizing with potential life shows depraved indifference for actual life.

No, prochoice people show indifference to the human life in the womb.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Yes, and people take contraception and use other safe sex practices to keep from getting pregnant. But **** happens. And yes, if men get a woman pregnant and especially if she's not able to abort it, the man should certainly be financially responsible for the fetus. From the moment of conception.

I agree with all of this.

So you want to confer personhood rights onto something that you don't even acknowledge is a person? Sperm and eggs are also potential life.

Sperm and egg are not potential human life. Put a sperm in a womb it will not create a human life alone, put a human egg in the womb and it will not create a human life alone.

Maybe? When should women not be permitted to have an abortion after having been raped? Since your whole premise here is that women should accept pregnancy if they had consensual sex.

I am ok with abortion in this instance. However, I don't think it should be the given. Most rape victims that conceive have the baby.

Life has a pre-existing definition that we use in English. Again, no matter how many times you say it is, it isn't fallacious to point out that your support for the right to life ends after birth, if you dont support other policies that promote life. You're pro-birth. That isn't dishonest. It's accurate.

It is a dishonest (fallacious) tactic to say that because I am prolife on abortion I also must have these other beliefs.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself for you.

You never once answered the question.

I never said the decision was "against our laws somehow." Lots of legal things in history have been ****ty and immoral.
Moreover, SCOTUS is the body that determines whether actions or policies are "against our laws somehow." And furthermore, you haven't explained why you object to the dissent's rebuttal of the decision. So we're having a discussion about nothing on this point. If you have an argument to make....make it. Or move on.

I don't disagree with the majority decision you do.

 

[Fool]

Would you have wanted to be aborted?

Spiritually means nothing until the spiritual can be demonstrated. But the fetus is human. What other species is it?


No, prochoice people show indifference to the human life in the womb.

spiritual simply means mental. Goes to state of mind.

Mental

Again you're trying to work from a potential when in actuality I exist as a viable human. All this pretending, has nothing to do with whether I had been born or not.

 

[Fool]

I agree with all of this.



Sperm and egg are not potential human life. Put a sperm in a womb it will not create a human life alone, put a human egg in the womb and it will not create a human life alone.

I am ok with abortion in this instance. However, I don't think it should be the given. Most rape victims that conceive have the baby.

It is a dishonest (fallacious) tactic to say that because I am prolife on abortion I also must have these other beliefs.

You never once answered the question.

I don't disagree with the majority decision you do.

there are no absolutes in Science.

 

[Left Coast]

I agree with all of this.

Cool. So we could've all saved a lot of time if you had just told @Fool from your very first response, "You're right."

Sperm and egg are not potential human life. Put a sperm in a womb it will not create a human life alone, put a human egg in the womb and it will not create a human life alone.

Putting sperm and egg together also doesn't create human life alone. There are a million other things that have to go a certain way for a baby to come out 9 months later. So yes, sperm and egg are also potential human life, one step further back than a zygote.

I am ok with abortion in this instance. However, I don't think it should be the given. Most rape victims that conceive have the baby.

What you mean, I assume, is that it is the choice of the mother to have the baby in most of those cases. I don't actually know if that's true statistically, but the point is that they choose that. It's not forced upon them by the state.

It is a dishonest (fallacious) tactic to say that because I am prolife on abortion I also must have these other beliefs.

It's not a question of "must." You have the prerogative to have whatever beliefs you have. It's a question of consistency. And besides, it shouldn't be an issue for you anyway since you told me I was wrong and that your beliefs on those issues don't follow the conservative line. So again, I eagerly await your robust defense of universal healthcare because you value life so so much!

You never once answered the question.

As to whether adults generally understand that babies are made through sex? Yes, yes they do understand that. Is that not obvious? Did I have to literally spell that out for you? I thought that was essentially a rhetorical question.

The point remains that consenting to sex is not consenting to pregnancy. So again, I'm not going to keep repeating myself for you.

I don't disagree with the majority decision you do.

And I've now repeatedly said why I think abortion ought to be regarded as a right.

Again. If you have an argument to make...make it. That's the last time I'm repeating myself for you. If you say nothing new in reply, I'm not going to keep responding.

 

[BilliardsBall]

i don't think in terms of black and white. i don't believe the brain creates contiousness. the spirit creates the form and then takes possession of the form; when it is at an optimum level for use. you know it as information. meaning to take form, or basically to shape. god formed, shaped.

a fetus can't be even close to being sentient until at earliest the 24th or 25th week of pregnancy and even then is circumspect. the brain isn't developed enough to sense.

this is both how it's understood in the bible and in some forms of buddhism


so the spirit, the consciousness is eternal, you can't destroy it. the form counts for nothing except as a vehicle to convey that consciousness, that spirit into the third dimension and here on earth for an earthly experience. that experience is not eternally thwarted by lack of materializing at an exact time and place.

Yet babies can survive in the NICU earlier, and feel pain much earlier, and were created by God even earlier!

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

spiritual simply means mental. Goes to state of mind.

Mental

Again you're trying to work from a potential when in actuality I exist as a viable human. All this pretending, has nothing to do with whether I had been born or not.

Ok, I would use a different word, using spirituality top mean mental health is confusing. It is a true statement that 35% or so of fertilizations result in birth. That is not pretend, people are born.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

there are no absolutes in Science.

I agree. How is tis relevant?

 

[Fool]

Ok, I would use a different word, using spirituality top mean mental health is confusing. It is a true statement that 35% or so of fertilizations result in birth. That is not pretend, people are born.

and there you have it. people are born. fetuses aren't fetuses after birth.


BOOM

 

[Fool]

I agree. How is tis relevant?

a better question is how are your beliefs more relevant to that of another?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Cool. So we could've all saved a lot of time if you had just told @Fool from your very first response, "You're right."

No. I do not agree with everything they said.

Putting sperm and egg together also doesn't create human life alone. There are a million other things that have to go a certain way for a baby to come out 9 months later. So yes, sperm and egg are also potential human life, one step further back than a zygote.

What kind of life is a sperm and egg together if not human life?

What you mean, I assume, is that it is the choice of the mother to have the baby in most of those cases. I don't actually know if that's true statistically, but the point is that they choose that. It's not forced upon them by the state.

It is a hard situation that I may be ok with an exception. I have not fully made my mind up about this situation.

It's not a question of "must." You have the prerogative to have whatever beliefs you have. It's a question of consistency. And besides, it shouldn't be an issue for you anyway since you told me I was wrong and that your beliefs on those issues don't follow the conservative line. So again, I eagerly await your robust defense of universal healthcare because you value life so so much!

What do you mean by universal healthcare? Also, it is fallacious to say you cannot be against abortion if you are also against universal health care.

As to whether adults generally understand that babies are made through sex? Yes, yes they do understand that. Is that not obvious? Did I have to literally spell that out for you? I thought that was essentially a rhetorical question.

Good, thanks for answering the question. So why should they not have to be ready for the consequences of that action?

The point remains that consenting to sex is not consenting to pregnancy. So again, I'm not going to keep repeating myself for you.

Do what you want, I disagree.

And I've now repeatedly said why I think abortion ought to be regarded as a right.

Yes, but you have not explained how your view meshes with the Roe decision. That's ok, I think you need to push for a constitutional amendment to add the right to an abortion.

Again. If you have an argument to make...make it. That's the last time I'm repeating myself for you. If you say nothing new in reply, I'm not going to keep responding.

Ok

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

and there you have it. people are born. fetuses aren't fetuses after birth.


BOOM

What are you talking about? I never claimed fetuses are fetuses after birth.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

a better question is how are your beliefs more relevant to that of another?

So you again avoid answering my question.

 

[Fool]

What are you talking about? I never claimed fetuses are fetuses after birth.

no you claimed people were people after birth not before.

give a person enough rope and they'll hang themselves

 

[Fool]

So you again avoid answering my question.

you've avoided a multitude of questions i asked. lets not play the hypocrite game

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

no you claimed people were people after birth not before.

give a person enough rope and they'll hang themselves

I never claimed when a person was a person. No one knows. I never claimed a fetus is a person either. My contention is that a fertilized egg has around a 35% chance of becoming a person and that potential should be legally protected because it is a human life.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

you've avoided a multitude of questions i asked. lets not play the hypocrite game

What questions?

 

[Left Coast]

What kind of life is a sperm and egg together if not human life?

I was using your own logic: it's potential human life. Like sperm and egg are also potential human life, one step back.

What do you mean by universal healthcare? Also, it is fallacious to say you cannot be against abortion if you are also against universal health care.

If you don't know what it is, I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion.

We're taking about support for policies that promote the right to life.

Two seconds on Google:

Universal health coverage (UHC)

Universal health care - Wikipedia

Good, thanks for answering the question. So why should they not have to be ready for the consequences of that action?

Because sex isn't a crime (consenting between adults, obviously). It's not some immoral act that harms others and thus requires that we receive some punishment for our bad behavior. That's how you're talking about it right now. Think through that. Should having a baby be a punishment? Do you want a world filled with people who have children they never wanted?

 

[Fool]

I never claimed when a person was a person. No one knows. I never claimed a fetus is a person either. My contention is that a fertilized egg has around a 35% chance of becoming a person and that potential should be legally protected because it is a human life.

in your post, yes you did. people are born. foetuses are not. that is the marker. that is where it has been. you and other believers are trying to move it.

people don't live in a womb, in an environment where they are physically linked to another for all their needs.