Mary is the most important figure in Christianity

[sojourner]

There is no basis for your claim. The majority of scholars (both Christian and Skeptic) agree on the following:

(1) He was crucified at the command of Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberus
(2) He was buried in a borrowed tomb (Joseph of Arimathea)
(3) After 3 days, the tomb was empty

Try referencing both independent biblical Gospels, Paul's Epistles) and secular (Josephus, Tacitus, Lucian, Seutinus, Thallas, Pliny The Younger) before you make invalid statements.

Scholars do agree that Jesus was crucified. There is increasing historical corroboration to show that his body was put in a common grave or fed to the dogs. Period. The rest is hyperbolic myth.

 

[outhouse]

The tomb was empty! .

Yes a tomb would remian empty if dogs ate the corpse. If he never made it to a tomb.

We dont have enough history one way or the other to over attribute.

The unknown authors were far removed from any actual event to take as plausible.

 

[sojourner]

The resurrection was not added to Mark.

The post-resurrection appearances were added. "Empty tomb" =/= "resurrection."

an older creed predating Mark's Gospel and passed down to Paul (as referenced in 1 Corinthians 15) validates that the resurrection appearances were well documented. Many of Paul's Epistles predated the Gospel narratives. In addition, what explains the disciples boldness to preach the Gospel not too long after going into hiding (post-cruxifiction), Saul's conversion (Paul) and the rapid spread of Christianity throughout Judea and Rome?

None of this proves that the resurrection was anything other than mythological hyperbole.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus is said to be buried in a tomb at Mohallah Khanyar, Srinagar, Kashmir, in India.

Regards

There is nothing valid to support this story.

 

[outhouse]

There is nothing valid to supper this story.

And he repeats it ad nauseam

 

[Draupadi]

Wow this thread is really interesting. IMHO it should have another name, Chaos Caused By Christian Sectarianism. Anyway, I always thought that the Catholic Christians never worshipped Mary. She was rather a mediator between God and the humans, for their appeals and prayers. Just like the saints.

@Paarsurrey- I thought you are a Muslim and may know that the Quran says that Jesus was raised to heaven by God. Even the Hadith says that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Wow this thread is really interesting. IMHO it should have another name, Chaos Caused By Christian Sectarianism. Anyway, I always thought that the Catholic Christians never worshipped Mary. She was rather a mediator between God and the humans, for their appeals and prayers. Just like the saints.

We don't worship Mary as God. She is the greatest amongst the Saints and a very special human being paid more respect than the other Saints, though. But not God.

 

[Sleeppy]

The Indian Government has taken this matter in their hands.
There are many Indian scholars who endorse it.

Regards

Could they be wrong? Do you believe them?

 

[outhouse]

Wow this thread is really interesting. IMHO it should have another name, Chaos Caused By Christian Sectarianism. Anyway, I always thought that the Catholic Christians never worshipped Mary. She was rather a mediator between God and the humans, for their appeals and prayers. Just like the saints.

@Paarsurrey- I thought you are a Muslim and may know that the Quran says that Jesus was raised to heaven by God. Even the Hadith says that.

They did a survey at the vatican.

Jesus ranked like 6th or 7th, and more people admitted to worshipping Mary.

Mary is huge in latin america.

 

[paarsurrey]

Wow this thread is really interesting. IMHO it should have another name, Chaos Caused By Christian Sectarianism. Anyway, I always thought that the Catholic Christians never worshipped Mary. She was rather a mediator between God and the humans, for their appeals and prayers. Just like the saints.

@Paarsurrey- I thought you are a Muslim and may know that the Quran says that Jesus was raised to heaven by God. Even the Hadith says that.

Yes; I am and Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.

Quran mentions it in a different context.

I quote from Quran:

[3:56] When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Quran does not say that:

1. Jesus died a cursed death on the Cross.
2. Jesus resurrected from the physically dead.

Quran says Jesus was exalted to heaven (never cursed) like any other prophet/messenger of G-d; nothing special for Jesus.

Exaltation is always spiritual not physical. Not as Paul and the Church would have the Christians to believe. It is a myth created by Paul and the Church out of thin air; it did not actually happen.

Regards

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes; I am and Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.


1. Jesus died a cursed death on the Cross.
2. Jesus resurrected from the physically dead.

I guess that Muslims have understood the exact essence of Jesus Christ and Mary. Firstly in the sura Maryam you read that Mary is the emblem of the perfect human nature, which is absolutely true.
Secondly, that Jesus came to Earth through Mary to teach Love, peace, meekness and tolerance . He confirmed the Law of Love

Saint Paul has distorted the meaning of Christ's coming. It is absolutely wrong that Jesus was doomed to be crucified (God would never allow that any person is sacrificed).
Besides, the story that the crucifixion has washed away mankind's sins is pure delirium.

 

[LuisDantas]

But not because God had made her sinless (impossible, there is the free will)
She, with her free will decided to be sinless. Because she conceived sin as incompatible with human nature. That's how she was able to incarnate God. (Immaculate conception)

I assume that is one of the doctrinary differences between Pelagian and Roman Catholic doctrine?

It is my understanding that the RCC does not recognize free will as having the power to deny or heal original sin.

If I understood your OP correctly, you are saying that God did not choose to make Mary sinless. He could not, because free will somehow impeded him.

I'm pretty certain that the RCC takes the opposite stance; God can supposedly overcome free will, at least far as creating an Immaculate human goes, and did in Mary's case.

I have little notion of what that means far as the relative worths and needs of free will and original sin go.

 

[Estro Felino]

I assume that is one of the doctrinary differences between Pelagian and Roman Catholic doctrine?.

precisely. the main one.

It is my understanding that the RCC does not recognize free will as having the power to deny or heal original sin. .

Exactly. The RCC believes in Augustine's theology, which says that God's grace is what heals original sin.

If I understood your OP correctly, you are saying that God did not choose to make Mary sinless. He could not, because free will somehow impeded him..

precisely. Election is incompatible with free will. God cannot elect anybody

I'm pretty certain that the RCC takes the opposite stance; God can supposedly overcome free will, at least far as creating an Immaculate human goes, and did in Mary's case.
.

Certainly. That's what the RCC says

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally Posted by paarsurrey
The Indian Government has taken this matter in their hands.
There are many Indian scholars who endorse it.

Could they be wrong? Do you believe them?

This could be done with DNA testing.

Tourists flock to 'Jesus' shrine
Tourists flock to disputed Jesus Tomb in Kashmir - Rediff.com News

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I guess that Muslims have understood the exact essence of Jesus Christ and Mary. Firstly in the sura Maryam you read that Mary is the emblem of the perfect human nature, which is absolutely true.
Secondly, that Jesus came to Earth through Mary to teach Love, peace, meekness and tolerance . He confirmed the Law of Love

Saint Paul has distorted the meaning of Christ's coming. It is absolutely wrong that Jesus was doomed to be crucified (God would never allow that any person is sacrificed).
Besides, the story that the crucifixion has washed away mankind's sins is pure delirium.

I appreciate your comments.

Thanks and regards

 

[sojourner]

Yes; I am and Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.

Quran mentions it in a different context.

I quote from Quran:

[3:56] When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Quran does not say that:

1. Jesus died a cursed death on the Cross.
2. Jesus resurrected from the physically dead.

Quran says Jesus was exalted to heaven (never cursed) like any other prophet/messenger of G-d; nothing special for Jesus.

Exaltation is always spiritual not physical. Not as Paul and the Church would have the Christians to believe. It is a myth created by Paul and the Church out of thin air; it did not actually happen.

Regards

It doesn't matter what the Koran says about Jesus. Stop appropriating Christian icons for other religions. That's like taking as authoritative an Iranian ruling on a point of American constitutional law. It doesn't mean anything.

 

[sojourner]

I guess that Muslims have understood the exact essence of Jesus Christ and Mary. Firstly in the sura Maryam you read that Mary is the emblem of the perfect human nature, which is absolutely true.
Secondly, that Jesus came to Earth through Mary to teach Love, peace, meekness and tolerance . He confirmed the Law of Love

Saint Paul has distorted the meaning of Christ's coming. It is absolutely wrong that Jesus was doomed to be crucified (God would never allow that any person is sacrificed).
Besides, the story that the crucifixion has washed away mankind's sins is pure delirium.

This post is pure delirium.

 

[Estro Felino]

It doesn't matter what the Koran says about Jesus. Stop appropriating Christian icons for other religions. That's like taking as authoritative an Iranian ruling on a point of American constitutional law. It doesn't mean anything.

I think you should have more respect toward Islam, which is a peaceful and tolerant religion. I do care what the Qu'ran says about Jesus, and I am honored, as a Christian, that the Muslims consider Jesus one of the main prophets of Islam.

 

[Estro Felino]

This post is pure delirium.

I have the right to believe that the concept of "Christ's sacrifice which washes away the sins of mankind" is absurd and anti-Christian.
I have the right to believe that Jesus came to teach us the law. Not to die for our sins.

 

[Windwalker]

Exactly. The RCC believes in Augustine's theology, which says that God's grace is what heals original sin.

Why can't a synthesis of understanding between ones will and grace be held? What that means is that through our will we choose to be Free, and through Grace we realize it? It is "not of ourselves", in the sense of the ego-seeking mind 'accomplishing' it, but that through our will we set aside the ego-seeking mind and allow Grace to unfold within and transform the individual? So both are at play. Not one without the other.