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Mary is the most important figure in Christianity

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Estro Felino, Jul 24, 2014.

  1. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    Hi, just though this verse clears up at least 'when' christians were first called by that name:

    Acts 11:1 Now the apostles and the brothers who were in Ju·de′a heard that people of the nations had also accepted the word of God...
    19 Now those who had been scattered by the tribulation that arose over Stephen went as far as Phoe·ni′cia, Cy′prus, and Antioch, but they spoke the word only to the Jews....

    22 The report about them reached the ears of the congregation in Jerusalem, and they sent out Bar′na·bas as far as Antioch. 23 When he arrived and saw the undeserved kindness of God, he rejoiced and began to encourage them all to continue in the Lord with heartfelt resolve; 24 for he was a good man and full of holy spirit and faith. And a considerable crowd was added to the Lord. 25 So he went to Tarsus to make a thorough search for Saul. 26 After he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year they assembled with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians.


    Prior to Pauls conversion to christianity, the teachings of Christ were called 'The Way'
    Acts 9:1 But Saul, still breathing threat and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that he might bring bound to Jerusalem any whom he found who belonged to The Way, both men and women.


    Im not sure if this means that they were called christians 'after' Pauls conversion or before... but there were certainly already several congregations outside of jerusalem before Paul converted.
     
    #141 Pegg, Jul 25, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  2. ChristineES

    ChristineES Tiggerism
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    Thank you, Pegg.
     
  3. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Veteran Member
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    The Ransom theory of Atonement is not the same as the Penal Substitution theory, which was made up by Calvinists.

    http://www.theopedia.com/Atonement_of_Christ
     
  4. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    That is something I am acutely aware of and it pains me to see. I think we could have an entire discussion topic on this alone. The issues I've had with the church is that is says 'get close to God', but not too close.... ;) It's like that other topic right now about how if you tell yourself something is impossible, it blocks you from it. This sort of unity with God, this sort of identification with God, where you or I or anyone can say with Jesus, "I and my Father are One," is withheld from us as I've heard someone say, "Jesus got kicked upstairs". He became the "2nd person of the Trinity", in the sense of a purely radical theistic God. God, and Jesus become "up there", outside of themselves you pray for a drop of blessing down from on high to your empty needy hands. That's tragic.

    I honestly believe the Trinity formulation to be fully panenthesitic expression, not a theistic one. God is in fact immanent in the world, in us. My personal experience has shown this to be what the case truly is. It is also strewn throughout the scriptures, yet people for whatever reason need to put God "upstairs". I see that need to be an avoidance through fear, actually. An avoidance of God, through imagining him 'up there'. It keeps us safely alive in our small self, "down here", away from having our skin ripped off and becoming fully exposed, naked in the Light. The incarnation smashes that, until we make Jesus a deity in the sky, and not a human like us, despite mouthing all the words he was "fully human". Does that truly pan out in how people envision him? I don't think so.

    I'm thinking in terms of how someone would see her as an expression of the divine in feminine form. To come to Mary, would be to approach God in feminine expression. To approach the divine feminine, allows someone access to themselves in their femininity (be that male or female in gender). Xy (I like the easy abbreviation, thanks), really is patriarchally heavy with God as masculine; He, Him, Father, etc,. It alienates aspects of ourselves from wholeness, as you recognize. We need to bring together the opposites, the masculine and the feminine within all ourselves. And holding up Mary this way serves in some fashion an approach to the Divine in ourselves. The Protestants have zero to offer in this, and is quite lopsided, and I believe lacking in what it needs in this regard.

    Personally, Jesus' mother Mary, I can see how people see her as access to Jesus through the feminine. But in all honesty, the better feminine is the tragically dismissed Apostle to the Apostles, Mary Magdalene. I honestly believe that Jesus, being fully human like all of us, had his own path to finding that nondual realization where he declares, "I and my Father are One.". I don't find much value in mythologizing him as some angelic like figure who was born with full knowledge of the divine in himself, like Lao Tzu being born 900 years old. I far rather see him having struggled to find Truth through the human form, exactly like us. "I have overcome the world", really, really means that. If he was born fully awakened, he overcame nothing! He grew. And, it is here that I see his relationship with Mary Magdalene to be part of his coming to Self Knowledge. We all learn about ourselves though others. God knows, I have my Mary Magdalene in my life! Without her, would I truly become who I am becoming?

    So if we step back from the patriarchal system of the male-dominant church which marginalized Mary Magdalene, despite her prominence within the scriptures, it is her who has a greater knowledge and access to Jesus than his mother! You follow? I love my mother, but she is not part of my becoming as my soul-mate is. The question is, would Jesus have been Jesus without her? I don't believe so. Just the same as any of us are not the same without our intimate other. I think what awakened in Jesus is tied to her, not his mother as much.

    So, there's the feminine for you.

    A bit of a thought dump here, but hopefully I've made some points to provoke good thoughts.
     
    #144 Windwalker, Jul 25, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  5. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    just note i did change that a little.


    im not sure if it was before or after Pauls conversion... i need to do some more research into that.
     
  6. ChristineES

    ChristineES Tiggerism
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    I've always assumed it was after Paul's conversion and that it was Paul and his followers who came up with the term and I've others tell me that the term came from Paul's people, as well. I didn't really question it. :)

    I am not a Bible scholar, I read the Bible and I study the Bible but not as a scholar. :)
     
  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I really like what you have to say about Mary of Magdala as the sacred feminine.

    And with regard to the first part of your post, I think that there's always that tension between God-as-imminent and God-as-transcendent. Likewise, there's the tension between God-as-particular and God-as-singularity. I think we have to hold those visions in tension, because God is both. And when God is "sent upstairs" to "God's room," it does create a safe distance, because when God becomes too imminent, God will burn you, just as the tongues of fire lit on the disciples' heads.
     
  8. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    I dont think there is quite enough information given about who first coined the term, but the scripture does say that it was given 'by divine providence'... so it may have been inspired... but to who it first came is uncertain. It may have been through Saul or Barnabas while they were in Antioch.


    I found this point from the WT


    So i guess its not known exactly who God first revealed the phrase to, but it was certainly first heard in Antioch where Barnabas and Saul/Paul were preaching. It certainly came from one of them.
     
  9. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Cool. It give some pause for reflection I feel.

    Yes, and that is what panentheism expresses. That that paradox. But as I've said, nonduality renders that unproblematic. But nonduality isn't a conceptual framework, which does do as you say create this tension. Nonduality is a open-handed realization that can hold both perspectives comfortable, and freely explore both without tension. It's nothing one 'grasps', just like one cannot grasp God.

    Oh yes, but that burn is purifying. And my point is that most people are more comfortable just having God safely away. But is that truly salvation then?
     
  10. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Since when does your Average Joe want to be pure?
     
  11. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    When is when they face an existential crisis and finally give up. :)
     
  12. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Mary was not sinless. She had a sinful nature because she was conceived through a sinful man (her earthly father). Mary was obedient, not without sin and was used as a conduit to conceive a sinless savior in Jesus Christ. She was an important figure in Christianity, but don't make her out to be more than she really was.
     
  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    The Catholic assertion is also totally wrong.

    Please quote from Jesus that G-d's grace saved Mary from the stain of Original Sin to prove your point of view.

    Being born of Mary even makes Jesus more sinful than a normal man, if we follow the Christian creed of Original Sin.

    As per Bible; it was Eve who induced Adam to eat the apple. So Eve committed two units of original sin while Adam committed one unit of it. Their off-spring inherits 1 + 1/2 units of original sin.

    Since Jesus was born of Mary only so Jesus becomes sinful of two units; which is more than an ordinary christian will inherit the original sin.

    I don't believe that any child inherits any sin by birth; this Christian creed is disrespectful for humanity and also to G-d. G-d creates every child as innocent.

    Regards
     
  14. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    False doctrine. The curse of sin came through the seed of man (Romans 5:12), we (creation) were cursed with a sinful nature. Jesus was not born through the tainted seed of man, but through divine intervention (immaculate conception). He was without sin, but bore the sinful condemnation for creation on the cross.
     
  15. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Jesus was born of Mary; a normal delivery; nothing abnormal about it. Why should one make Jesus an abnormal human being? There was no divine intervention; just normal delivery.

    We understand that some Buddhists believe that Buddha was born in a miraculous manner. Without womb obscuration he appeared from the right side of his mother's ribs. Instantly Indra, King of the Gods, appeared and offered the infant Buddha clothes to wear.

    Nothing like this happened for Jesus.

    Regards
     
    #155 paarsurrey, Jul 26, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2014
  16. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Where did you receive this information?
     
  17. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Jesus was not born of a natural conception (man and woman having sexual intercourse). That's what makes it supernatural. There was no seed of a man that tainted Jesus in any way. Jesus was God in the flesh. His birth, sinless life, miracles, death and resurrection (empty tomb) validate His claims.
     
  18. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Which one?

    Regards
     
  19. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    That is not susbstantiated.

    By all historical accounts, he was born normal.


    What makes it supernatural is the unknown authors who wrote using rhetoric and mythology. That and a possibly purposeful tranlation error, that of maiden to virgin.

    The reality is these authors were far removed from the birth of jesus, most scholars claim no historicity to any aspect of the birth of the man.


    There is no tainting with seed. It is no sin.

    I think people have problems if they make that claim. It is a natural and normal human function required of life.

    I can write a book and claim my plastic yellow ducky has all that attributed to him, and it validates nothing.

    Your claim is another unsubstantiated claim.
     
  20. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    All of it.
     
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