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Mandatory Vaccinations?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You are totally inscrutable to me. Although I was a badly battered, nearly murdered (twice) child, I have never had even close to what appear to me to be your levels of fear and mistrust. Fascinating, but totally inscrutable.
Not fear, just a healthy skepticism. I live in a country where I can afford to be hesitant....and have good reason because of what I have read for both sides of the issue. I am soooo not convinced that these vaccines are as safe as they claim.....time will tell. If the vaccination can't be reversed, and the vaccine manufacturers cannot be sued for damages, do you not hold just a little reservation that maybe there is something to the long term study question?
Those vaccinated can still get the virus and spread it....don't you wonder how?

Over 3 billion people have had the vaccine, and there have been remarkably few bad outcomes.
YET.......they are surfacing all the time. How ironic for those who have died from an adverse reaction to the vaccine, trying to avoid the virus.

Yet, only 184,209,877 people have caught the virus, and 3,986,601 (this is certainly a low-ball count) have died from it. And many more have had serious, serious outcomes, like double lung transplants, long-Covid, and a whole host of other life-changing events.
Many have the same issue with the seasonal flu. If you have underlying health issues even the flu can kill you or leave you with other issues. My daughter in Law was left with asthma after a bad bout of the flu two years ago.....its now a serious issue for her. You'd think covid was the only problem in the world...its all I hear about on the news...how many people die from cancer, heart disease and strokes every year?

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The top 10 causes of death

Further, it is abundantly clear in the first world that the more people are being vaccinated, the faster the rates of infection, deaths and serious other consequences fall. This is just a matter of looking up the statistics.
Herd immunity is the only way this virus will be controlled. But I am trying to understand why those who have recovered from the virus are urged to get vaccinated? If they recovered from the virus, then they had antibodies that fought it and won.....those antibodies don't go away. They stay in the blood stream to protect from further infection. There is way too much that just doesn't add up about this virus for me.

But you are correct: we make our own choices, and nothing in the world compels you to use the information available to you properly.

I don't trust the source of the information in which you place your implicit trust.....its really not rocket science.

You can trust them all you wish...I'll reserve my judgment until all the facts are in.....and I can make an informed choice about it.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Herd immunity is the only way this virus will be controlled.
Look, I'm sorry to drone on about this, but in that statement, you make my whole case for me. You agree, herd immunity is the only way to get the virus under control. And then you, and other vaccine refusers, are saying, "but for my own reasons, I'm going to deny the opportunity to achieve herd immunity." Now, as I said, that is your right, but when you make choices that will have negative impacts far, far beyond you, I've always felt that one should have really good reasons for doing so. Really good.

But your own words convince me that your reasons are really just "conspiracy theory" reasons. Things like:

" There is way too much that just doesn't add up about this virus for me." and,

"I don't trust the source of the information in which you place your implicit trust"

You aren't looking for "all the facts" to be in. In fact, you're ignoring the facts until something makes your own distrust go away.
 

Martin

Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)
Look, I'm sorry to drone on about this, but in that statement, you make my whole case for me. You agree, herd immunity is the only way to get the virus under control. And then you, and other vaccine refusers, are saying, "but for my own reasons, I'm going to deny the opportunity to achieve herd immunity." Now, as I said, that is your right, but when you make choices that will have negative impacts far, far beyond you, I've always felt that one should have really good reasons for doing so. Really good.

Exactly. Vaccines are an effective way of reducing transmission and achieving herd immunity, as well as minimising serious illness and death. It's a no-brainer.
So it appears that vaccine refusers are ignorant of the basic science. Or perhaps wilfully ignorant, preferring the titillation of ridiculous conspiracy theories? Narcissism?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Look, I'm sorry to drone on about this, but in that statement, you make my whole case for me. You agree, herd immunity is the only way to get the virus under control. And then you, and other vaccine refusers, are saying, "but for my own reasons, I'm going to deny the opportunity to achieve herd immunity."
How was herd immunity achieved in the days when vaccines were unknown? Natural immunity was achieved through recovery and the attainment of superior, naturally produced antibodies. Did people die? Yes they did, just as they have in this pandemic, but realistically speaking, the vast majority of those who get Covid, don’t get sicker than with the ordinary flu.....people still die from that even now. Flu shots don’t stop people getting the flu. Covid shots don’t stop people getting Covid. There are no guarantees because this is still experimental.....you guys are their guinea pigs. I’ll allow the long term independent studies to guide my decision.

In recent years I have tested positive for Influenza A and B but I did not get sick because I have acquired natural immunity.....that’s the way our immune system works.
Herd immunity is not achieved only through vaccination. The factors that would make most people less vulnerable to illness are achieved through good diet, vitamin and mineral supplements, and regular exercise, which are often sadly lacking in the western lifestyle.

Now, as I said, that is your right, but when you make choices that will have negative impacts far, far beyond you, I've always felt that one should have really good reasons for doing so. Really good.
My reasons are good enough for me.....and as long as I take all the necessary precautions (and I assure you that I take more than is recommended) I will not put myself or others at risk.

But your own words convince me that your reasons are really just "conspiracy theory" reasons. Things like:

" There is way too much that just doesn't add up about this virus for me." and,

"I don't trust the source of the information in which you place your implicit trust"

You aren't looking for "all the facts" to be in. In fact, you're ignoring the facts until something makes your own distrust go away.
I have examined both sides and for the reasons already explained, I am NOT prepared to be a guinea pig for indemnified drug companies who have governments and the media in their hip pockets.
You can if you want to.....your choice and your reasons have nothing to do with me. My position, for myself is one of healthy skepticism....not irresponsibility. OK? You apparently trust people that I have reasons not to.
 
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Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
How was herd immunity achieved in the days when vaccines were unknown? Natural immunity was achieved through recovery and the attainment of superior, naturally produced antibodies. Did people die? Yes they did, just as they have in this pandemic, but realistically speaking, the vast majority of those who get Covid, don’t get sicker than with the ordinary flu.....people still die from that even now. Flu shots don’t stop people getting the flu. Covid shots don’t stop people getting Covid. There are no guarantees because this is still experimental.....you guys are their guinea pigs. I’ll allow the long term independent studies to

In recent years I have tested positive for Influenza A and B but I did not get sick because I have acquired natural immunity.....that’s the way our immune system works.
Herd immunity is not achieved only through vaccination. The factors that would make most people less vulnerable to illness are achieved through good diet, vitamin and mineral supplements, and regular exercise, which are often sadly lacking in the western lifestyle.


My reasons are good enough for me.....and as long as I take all the necessary precautions (and I assure you that I take more than is recommended) I will not put myself or others at risk.


I have examined both sides and for the reasons already explained, I am NOT prepared to be a guinea pig for indemnified drug companies who have governments and the media in their hip pockets.
You can if you want to.....your choice and your reasons have nothing to do with me. My position, for myself is one of healthy skepticism....not irresponsibility. OK? You apparently trust people that I have reasons not to.
For the record, I am not trying to fight you. I think that the United States, and every other country in the world, has an enormous problem that is still trying to be dealt with. In this mobile world, the danger ain't gone when it ain't gone everywhere -- because everywhere can come here in a few hours.

Most of my life, I have lived by the adage, "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." That's just me -- I have to behave as I do because all the information I have available to me tells me that it is the best thing to do, and the more people who don't participate, the longer the problem will exist. And the longer the problem exists, the more people will die. That means something to me.

And yes, people die of the flu. But there were no vaccines during the Spanish flu of 1918-1919, and something like 50 to 100 million people died. I get it, to most people, those are just numbers -- they have no real meaning, they don't have a personal impact.

And for the record, "herd immunity" before vaccines was achieved by the simple expedient of very, very many more deaths. Simple as that.

I just "feel" differently.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
For the record, I am not trying to fight you. I think that the United States, and every other country in the world, has an enormous problem that is still trying to be dealt with. In this mobile world, the danger ain't gone when it ain't gone everywhere -- because everywhere can come here in a few hours.
And if international borders had been closed immediately, we might not be having this conversation....but having said that, it was reported that around 5 million people traveled out of Wuhan before the Chinese government even alerted anyone about the spread of this new virus. Human negligence spread it around the world.

Most of my life, I have lived by the adage, "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." That's just me
There is a position in the middle. I am ‘fence sitting’ on this issue because I believe there is a relatively safe place for observation. I am not stopping anyone else from making their own decisions for their own reasons. And I am being extremely careful about my own actions. I am not being irresponsible....I am exercising caution and reserving judgment until I am satisfied that this vaccine is safe long term. No one can tell yet.....

I have to behave as I do because all the information I have available to me tells me that it is the best thing to do, and the more people who don't participate, the longer the problem will exist. And the longer the problem exists, the more people will die. That means something to me.
People die every day from a multitude of causes....for some it is their own fault, and for others it’s not.....but death will come to all of us sooner or later, and the majority of us will have no choice about the method or the timing. Can you tell me why we fear death and fight it, as though it shouldn’t happen? I can answer that question from my own viewpoint....but what do you think?

And yes, people die of the flu. But there were no vaccines during the Spanish flu of 1918-1919, and something like 50 to 100 million people died. I get it, to most people, those are just numbers -- they have no real meaning, they don't have a personal impact.
Why should people put their future health at risk with an largely untested and irreversible vaccine, trying to dodge a virus that may only be as bad as the common flu?
It’s about balance to me....it’s about who we listen to and who we believe.

And for the record, "herd immunity" before vaccines was achieved by the simple expedient of very, very many more deaths. Simple as that.
My grandmother went through the Spanish flu epidemic and nursed members of her family through it.....she then got it herself and was also nursed through it.
It is beneficial to remember however, that the world was coming out of a global conflict the likes of which it had never experienced before, with food shortages, poor nutrition, trauma and chaos....optimal conditions for a pandemic.

In spite of all the so called modern advancements in medicine, they had ways to treat illness more naturally back then.....it wasn’t made of artificial chemicals, but taken from nature’s pharmacy......that is what I would trust more even today. Modern medicine and complementary medicine can exist side by side.....they don’t have to conflict.

My own experience is that these more natural medicines and herbal supplements might take longer, but they work better. I also believe that the western food supply is almost devoid of its full nutritional value because of extended periods of cold storage and over processing to extend shelf life.....so vitamin and mineral supplements are helpful in building our immune system, as is attending to the health of your gut.

I just "feel" differently.
Isn’t free will a wonderful thing....?
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
How was herd immunity achieved in the days when vaccines were unknown? Natural immunity was achieved through recovery and the attainment of superior, naturally produced antibodies. Did people die? Yes they did, just as they have in this pandemic, but realistically speaking, the vast majority of those who get Covid, don’t get sicker than with the ordinary flu.....people still die from that even now. Flu shots don’t stop people getting the flu. Covid shots don’t stop people getting Covid. There are no guarantees because this is still experimental.....you guys are their guinea pigs. I’ll allow the long term independent studies to guide my decision.

In recent years I have tested positive for Influenza A and B but I did not get sick because I have acquired natural immunity.....that’s the way our immune system works.
Herd immunity is not achieved only through vaccination. The factors that would make most people less vulnerable to illness are achieved through good diet, vitamin and mineral supplements, and regular exercise, which are often sadly lacking in the western lifestyle.


My reasons are good enough for me.....and as long as I take all the necessary precautions (and I assure you that I take more than is recommended) I will not put myself or others at risk.


I have examined both sides and for the reasons already explained, I am NOT prepared to be a guinea pig for indemnified drug companies who have governments and the media in their hip pockets.
You can if you want to.....your choice and your reasons have nothing to do with me. My position, for myself is one of healthy skepticism....not irresponsibility. OK? You apparently trust people that I have reasons not to.
Stop comparing COVID to the flu.

It's not the flu.

It's more highly transmissible than the flu.

It's deadlier than the flu.

It's worse than the flu.


Also, we have a vaccine for the flu that scientists tweak every year to keep up with the changing virus.


Your idea about natural immunity is dangerous and absurd. Far, far more people will die than necessary if we follow that plan. Far more variants will continue to pop up, if we follow that plan - variants which could set us back to the beginning of all this again and everything we've done will be for naught. We've already lost 4 million people worldwide to COVID, and that's with many countries having safety measures in place to reduce the spread. I'm against people dying unnecessarily and I don't understand why you're not.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
How was herd immunity achieved in the days when vaccines were unknown? Natural immunity was achieved through recovery and the attainment of superior, naturally produced antibodies.

So.... antibodies produced as a result of vaccination are NOT 'natural'? Clueless....

Did people die? Yes they did, just as they have in this pandemic, but realistically speaking, the vast majority of those who get Covid, don’t get sicker than with the ordinary flu.....
Well, except for those with 'long haul' issues, and of course the ~10x as many people that died.

You compassionate Christian types are very often hateful, selfish ghouls, aren't you?

'Oh well, got to die of something, no biggie.'
 

ecco

Veteran Member
That's something I'd take into consideration.

It's rare but something like this I'd definitely be skeptical. We get second opinions about meds with more odds on our side, but just jump over board with a non FDC approved vaccine.

Skepticism is good. I consider myself to be a skeptic. That's one reason I'm an atheist.

I'm also a rational realist who can look at and understand statistics.

Fact: 770,000 Americans are dead from Covid.
Fact: Virtually all of the 770,000 Americans who died from Covid were unvaccinated.
Fact: Covid is overwhelmingly safe. Example:
COVID-19 Vaccination
As of July 12, 2021, more than 12.8 million doses of the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine have been given in the United States. CDC and FDA identified 38 confirmed reports of people who got the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and later developed TTS.​
Thirty eight out of 12,800,000. .00000297
How many second opinions do you jneed?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Please let us agree we should be against the mandatory vaccination of children and adolescents if they were to have a 1 out of a 30,000 chance of getting heart inflammation by being mRNA COVID -19 vaccinated in exchange for the benefit of gaining near certain immunity against a disease they would otherwise have a better than 99,999 out of a 100,000 chance of fully recovering from being infected by the SARS-CoV2 virus. .


The heart inflammation issue is from just one of the vaccines. Concerned people can take the others. You failed to mention that the symptoms were mild and short term.

Seven hundred thousand Americans are dead! Period. There is nothing short term about being dead. Next, where did you get "a better than 99,999 out of a 100,000 chance of fully recovering". Ninety eight percent survived, two percent are dead. Of those 98%, some have lasting symptoms:

Long haulers: Why some people experience long-term coronavirus symptoms
Researchers estimate about 10% of COVID-19 patients become long haulers, according to a recent article from The Journal of the American Medical Association and a study done by British scientists. That’s in line with what UC Davis Health is seeing.​

Ten percent of 34,000,000 is 3,400,000 people with long term effects:
  • Coughing
  • Ongoing, sometimes debilitating, fatigue
  • Body aches
  • Joint pain
  • Shortness of breath
  • Loss of taste and smell — even if this didn’t occur during the height of illness
  • Difficulty sleeping
  • Headaches
  • Brain fog
Brain fog is among the most confusing symptoms for long haulers. Patients report being unusually forgetful, confused or unable to concentrate even enough to watch TV. This can happen to people who were in an intensive care unit for a while, but it’s relatively rare. However, it is happening to a variety of patients, including those who weren’t hospitalized.
Last, but certainly not least, there are people who cannot get vaccinated because of underlying problems. Every unvaccinated person these people come into contact with increases their chances of getting Covid.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Skepticism is good. I consider myself to be a skeptic. That's one reason I'm an atheist.

I'm also a rational realist who can look at and understand statistics.

Fact: 770,000 Americans are dead from Covid.
Fact: Virtually all of the 770,000 Americans who died from Covid were unvaccinated.
Fact: Covid is overwhelmingly safe. Example:
COVID-19 Vaccination
As of July 12, 2021, more than 12.8 million doses of the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine have been given in the United States. CDC and FDA identified 38 confirmed reports of people who got the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and later developed TTS.​
Thirty eight out of 12,800,000. .00000297
How many second opinions do you jneed?

Are you skeptical of these numbers or do you accept them because an expert quoted them?

That and quoting numbers (scripture) doesn't magically make people (ideally) jump to take anything that involves their health.

Can you find anything that is a con to vaccines in order to assess what experts give you without bias?
 

Suave

Simulated character
The heart inflammation issue is from just one of the vaccines. Concerned people can take the others. You failed to mention that the symptoms were mild and short term.

Seven hundred thousand Americans are dead! Period. There is nothing short term about being dead. Next, where did you get "a better than 99,999 out of a 100,000 chance of fully recovering". Ninety eight percent survived, two percent are dead. Of those 98%, some have lasting symptoms:

Long haulers: Why some people experience long-term coronavirus symptoms
Researchers estimate about 10% of COVID-19 patients become long haulers, according to a recent article from The Journal of the American Medical Association and a study done by British scientists. That’s in line with what UC Davis Health is seeing.​

Ten percent of 34,000,000 is 3,400,000 people with long term effects:
  • Coughing
  • Ongoing, sometimes debilitating, fatigue
  • Body aches
  • Joint pain
  • Shortness of breath
  • Loss of taste and smell — even if this didn’t occur during the height of illness
  • Difficulty sleeping
  • Headaches
  • Brain fog
Brain fog is among the most confusing symptoms for long haulers. Patients report being unusually forgetful, confused or unable to concentrate even enough to watch TV. This can happen to people who were in an intensive care unit for a while, but it’s relatively rare. However, it is happening to a variety of patients, including those who weren’t hospitalized.
Last, but certainly not least, there are people who cannot get vaccinated because of underlying problems. Every unvaccinated person these people come into contact with increases their chances of getting Covid.

F.Y.I. Healthy Michigan boy, 13, dies in his sleep three days after receiving his second dose of Pfizer Covid vaccine as CDC launches investigation.

Report: 13-year-old dies in sleep after getting COVID-19 vaccine; CDC investigating | CBS 17
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I have an somewhat unrelated question. Are RF members allowed to post facts that talks about side effects and other valid cons of COVID in the "info about COVID" thread?

I always wondered but figured it would be shot down. If we don't look at both sides how do we make sound decisions about our health.....and why would we think COVID is worse than heart problems and blood clots??

Without the conspiracy, would that be allowed? (Without bias to whom post the info as opposed to the info itself)
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The heart inflammation issue is from just one of the vaccines. Concerned people can take the others. You failed to mention that the symptoms were mild and short term.

Seven hundred thousand Americans are dead! Period. There is nothing short term about being dead. Next, where did you get "a better than 99,999 out of a 100,000 chance of fully recovering". Ninety eight percent survived, two percent are dead. Of those 98%, some have lasting symptoms:

Long haulers: Why some people experience long-term coronavirus symptoms
Researchers estimate about 10% of COVID-19 patients become long haulers, according to a recent article from The Journal of the American Medical Association and a study done by British scientists. That’s in line with what UC Davis Health is seeing.​

Ten percent of 34,000,000 is 3,400,000 people with long term effects:
  • Coughing
  • Ongoing, sometimes debilitating, fatigue
  • Body aches
  • Joint pain
  • Shortness of breath
  • Loss of taste and smell — even if this didn’t occur during the height of illness
  • Difficulty sleeping
  • Headaches
  • Brain fog
Brain fog is among the most confusing symptoms for long haulers. Patients report being unusually forgetful, confused or unable to concentrate even enough to watch TV. This can happen to people who were in an intensive care unit for a while, but it’s relatively rare. However, it is happening to a variety of patients, including those who weren’t hospitalized.
Last, but certainly not least, there are people who cannot get vaccinated because of underlying problems. Every unvaccinated person these people come into contact with increases their chances of getting Covid.

They don't increase their chance. They have the same chance but others lowered their chance of catching it relative to the unvaccinated.

What may increase our chance is being around strangers, traveling,not taking care of one's health, etc.

Unvaccinated are at the same risk before and after the other vaccinated. Illusion of increase but the risk is the same.

Question. If a unvaccinated person caught covid and caused death to another unvaccinated person would the vaccinated care?
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
Are you skeptical of these numbers or do you accept them because an expert quoted them?

That and quoting numbers (scripture) doesn't magically make people (ideally) jump to take anything that involves their health.

Can you find anything that is a con to vaccines in order to assess what experts give you without bias?
Are you suggesting they are inaccurate? If we cannot trust the numbers coming from credible sources then that is tantamount to saying we can't trust any information ever. This is a silly notion.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Are you suggesting they are inaccurate? If we cannot trust the numbers coming from credible sources then that is tantamount to saying we can't trust any information ever. This is a silly notion.

No. I'm saying see both sides.

If you can't find "any. thing." wrong with vaccines and you discredit side affects that's biased.

No person I'd hope will base their health treatment "etc" on one side of the story. They'd ask "what the worse that can happen" and think for themselves as well (generalizing). Without that from both experts and laymen it's hard to decern so people jump.

In it's for oneself, it won't kill a person. I just find it,how to say, irresponsible...and this is not only for ones own health but others too.
 
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