Love the sinner hate the sin?

[lovedmb]

Because you have to be able to look at it and say, "That's not a good thing for me to be doing" in order for you to be able to avoid it.

You really think so? Again this goes back to my other post, do you believe you wouldn't be able to "avoid" being homosexual for example without being judgemental of someone who is?

What do you mean? If I have the right to not love everything my neighbour does, I would have to make a judgment in some capacity for me to be able to not love everything.

Why? What difference does it make to you how your neighbor lives if they are not impacting you? If your neighbor smokes in their home, you consider that sinful, but how does it effect you? Why do you have to condemn his "sin"? How does that benefit you?
What do you gain from judging others?

I do hate all sins. People tend to gravitate towards homosexuality. If you look back, I didn't even bring homosexuality into this discussion.

You didn't, but I'm using it as an easy example, because that seems to me to be the one most commonly discussed when the words "bigot" and "hateful", etc. come into play which you mentioned in your OP.

 

[wmam]

It's not saying putting a curse on someone. The chapter's talking about taming the tongue. Talking bad about someone, then praising God.. IMO.

I'm glad you put "IMO" in your reply. Your opinion, however, isn't that of the source of which I posted. Hey, as I have always said, to each their own.

 

[Quiddity]

What does matter have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that that only thing that makes us who we are is our physical existence? And before you ask, no, I don't think serial rapists can just turn it off. I don't think pedophiles can turn it off either

Ok Danisty, you see yourself as attached and unchanged as a serial rapist/pedophile? If you do, why? If you don't, why? Please be very clear on what you mean by "attached".
I do not think it's a part of you in a subjective or objective sense.

~Victor

 

[Quiddity]

Is your heterosexuality a part of you Victor?

Don`t get me wrong as I agree with you, I don`t think Danitys bisexuality is any more a "part" of her than my heterosexuality is.
However to be consistent in your beliefs you`ll have to concede your heterosexuality isn`t a "part" of you.

Or is it?
I`ll have to give that some thought.

That is a good point Linwood. Frubal worthy.....And no I do not think it is.

~Victor

 

[Ðanisty]

Ok Danisty, you see yourself as attached and unchanged as a serial rapist/pedophile? If you do, why? If you don't, why? Please be very clear on what you mean by "attached".
I do not think it's a part of you in a subjective or objective sense.

~Victor

What? That doesn't make any sense. I'm not a rapist or a pedophile. I'm just a bisexual Luciferian. What I'm saying is I don't think rapists and pedophiles can change who they are any more than I can change who I am (a bisexual Luciferian). People might be able to change their behaviors, but they cannot change who they are inside.

 

[Squirt]

pdoel,

You seem like such a genuinely nice person -- seriously, and so I want you to know that it's not my intention to try to pick a fight with you. It's just that your answers leave me with so many questions! I hope you'll not mind if I continue to delve just a little further into your head.

To be honest, I don't have all the answers. I think we all have a reason for being here. A path that God has chosen for us. I think we are all sinners, but I also think we were all saved when Jesus died on the cross.

Well, I don't have all the answers either. When it gets right down to it, every single solitary one of us is just doing the best we can and trying to figure it all out to the best of our ability. When you say that we are all sinners, but were all saved when Jesus died on the cross, are you saying you are a universalist (I'm not speaking of a Unitarian Universalist, by the way)? In other words, do you believe that every man, woman and child who has ever lived will go to heaven because of Jesus Christ's Atonement? Would you be including such individuals as Adolf Hilter and Osama bin Laden when you say, "we were all saved"? You are the kind of person who will probably just answer by saying, "I don't know. I'll leave it up to God." I can't very well find any fault in that, because I do believe that it's not up to any of us to make that decision. I'm just trying to figure out who you mean when you use the word "all," and if I should take that word to literally mean "all."

You here so much from certain sects that unless you follow "Their" religion, you will go to Hell. I don't buy that. Let's just say, that Christianity is right on the money, that Jesus was God's Son, and he died for our sins. And that if you accept Christ as your savior, you too, will be saved. I don't understand how someone could be born in the Middle East, be raised as a Muslim, NEVER hear of Jesus' teachings, but live a VERY good life. Follow their religion well, treat others with kindness, and follow all the laws of their religion. I don't understand how they could spend an eternity in Hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

I'm 100% with you on this. I totally agree that God loves all of us far too much to condemn someone to Hell for no other reason than that He was born at the wrong time or in the wrong place.

But I will even go a step further. I think we ALL have a purpose. We all have a path. If a guy walks into a McDonald's an opens fire, killing several people. Guaranteed, at the funeral, you were hear people giving their condolonces, and you will hear something along the lines of, "I'm so sorry for your loss. Just have peace knowing (so and so) is in a better place, and we may not understand it, but we know God has a plan for (so and so). So, if this was God's plan, as evil as the person who did the shooting seems, how can even they go to Hell, if that was God's plan?

I think we all have a purpose, too. But I believe in free will. Consequently, not everyone who lives ends up fulfilling the purpose God has in mind for him. I don't think anyone is predestined to be a murderer, or that everything that happens on this earth happens because it is part of God's plan. I'm really thinking that this would be an interesting topic for a new thread. Maybe I'll start one.

Many believe that someone could live a horrible life, sin constantly, show no remorse, and at the age of 85, on their death bed, repent, and be forgiven of all sins and be saved. Many of these same people believe that someone could live a rather good life, accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, but because they are gay, and live a homosexual lifestyle, they are going to hell, no matter how good a life they lead.

I don't buy that.

Well, just for the record -- neither do I!

 

[wmam]

I don't believe that Yahshua thought that His disciples would love the haters of His Father YAH. I can't find "Hate the sin and love the sinner" in my Scriptures. I can't find where we are to love all. I disagree that one cannot clean up their lives. Even a non-believer can do that. I believe that one can tell others whatever they wish about sin or anything else that they feel that the other person might need to help themselves be a better person. That other person has the right to either accept it or let it go in one ear and out the other.

 

[wmam]

Divorce and remarriage is directly contrary to the teachings of Jesus

Yahshua said that His Father allows divorce as well as remarriage but one has to follow the law.

 

[Quiddity]

What? That doesn't make any sense. I'm not a rapist or a pedophile. I'm just a bisexual Luciferian. What I'm saying is I don't think rapists and pedophiles can change who they are any more than I can change who I am (a bisexual Luciferian). People might be able to change their behaviors, but they cannot change who they are inside.

We are talking about the same thing with different words...
What do you mean by "they cannot change who they are in the inside"?
Be clear please.

 

[linwood]

Why isn't your heterosexuality a part of you? Is it something you decided at some point? "Hmmmm, yup, I think I'm gonna be hetersexual."

I have a hypothesis about human sexuality that wouldn`t fit into this Op.

I may post it in a more appropriate area.

 

[Ðanisty]

We are talking about the same thing with different words...
What do you mean by "they cannot change who they are in the inside"?
Be clear please.

They can choose to live the truth or a lie. My options are to either accept my bisexuality or pretend I'm not bisexual. I don't know any other way to make it clear. It may be your belief that people can choose their sexuality, but that is not what I or the vast majority of homosexuals and bisexuals believe. It isn't just about sexuality though. I am a Luciferian. That is where my beliefs are. I could pretend to be something else, but it would never be the truth...just an illusion.

 

[wmam]

I don't think that the labels that man has decided on to place on one for any actions are in and of themselves sinful. Therefore a murderer, pedophile, homosexual, bigot, rapist and politician are not sinners because of what we call them but rather the actions that they, individually, decide to commit that are transgressions of YAH our Elohim's law. This is, however, only valid thought for those that believe, but for me, it doesn't matter what anyone else believes because I believe it is still Truth. Now, could I be wrong? If one was filled with the spirit and was truly saved, how could they answer "Yes" to admitting that they could somehow be wrong? Wouldn't that rather be a cold hard slap in the face of the spirit and the One that sent them to say that what has been revealed unto you as Truth has the possibility of being wrong? Sure, others have the right to disagree with someone that claims that they have the spirit but what True difference, then, would it make to the one making the claim if he or she was truly sanctified? Not to say that such a person would consider themselves anymore righteous than the next or feel somewhat above anyone else. Though it doesn't stop others from ridiculing and persecuting one that would make such a claim. I believe that if one chooses to sin, no matter what sin it is, then they will have to answer for it to YAH. I feel that believers of Truth have the right to judge righteously everything around them for the purpose of helping oneself to become more sin free. It is written to............

3Jo 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of Elohim: but he that doeth evil hath not seen Elohim.

So I feel that we have to discern/judge others, righteously, in order to help ourselves not to follow that which is deemed sinful in the eye's of YAH. Remember we are also to.........

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

It surely doesn't say that we should hold fast to that which is bad.

 

[Quiddity]

They can choose to live the truth or a lie. My options are to either accept my bisexuality or pretend I'm not bisexual.

For the zillionth time, why is this not a choice? And don't forget that you can choose to fight it as well. If you can choose then your not permanently attached to it.

I don't know any other way to make it clear. It may be your belief that people can choose their sexuality, but that is not what I or the vast majority of homosexuals and bisexuals believe. It isn't just about sexuality though. I am a Luciferian. That is where my beliefs are. I could pretend to be something else, but it would never be the truth...just an illusion.

There is plenty of homosexual priest who are doing just fine. They aren't refraining or rejecting their homosexuality. They are simply rejecting certain actions.

 

[Ðanisty]

For the zillionth time, why is this not a choice? And don't forget that you can choose to fight it as well. If you can choose then your not permanently attached to it.

I do not understand why you can't grasp this...seriously. If something is part of you, you can choose to fight it, but you can't choose that it is part of you.

There is plenty of homosexual priest who are doing just fine. They aren't refraining or rejecting their homosexuality. They are simply rejecting certain actions.

That is exactly my point. They are still homosexual because it is part of them. What they are choosing is their actions...not their sexuality.

 

[Squirt]

For the zillionth time, why is this not a choice? And don't forget that you can choose to fight it as well. If you can choose then your not permanently attached to it.


There is plenty of homosexual priest who are doing just fine. They aren't refraining or rejecting their homosexuality. They are simply rejecting certain actions.

To me there is a difference between having feelings and acting on them. And it's a huge difference. I know that I didn't choose to be heterosexual. I've just always liked guys! I didn't sit down one day and weigh the pros and cons of being straight versus gay. If the tables had been turned and if I had been taught that I was "supposed to be" attracted to girls, there's really nothing I think I could have done to change the way I was "hard-wired." On the other hand, I did make a conscious choice that I would not lose my virginity until I got married. Whether that decision strikes some people as stupid is beside the point. It's a moral choice I made. I always intended, had I never married, to abstain from having sex -- forever. Would it have been difficult? Of course. Would I have succeeded in keeping what I believe was one of God's commandments? Fortunately, I'll never have to find out.

 

[lovedmb]

I have a hypothesis about human sexuality that wouldn`t fit into this Op.

I may post it in a more appropriate area.

If you do, would you mind directing me there? I'm new (obviously) and am not overly familiar with everything.

 

[Flappycat]

Is this even possible anymore? Every time I mention a hate for a sin, I automatically get labeled as hateful, spiteful, judgemental, hypocritical, un-christ-like, and a miriad of other insults (which, BTW, are directed at me, and not my "sin"). Is it now the societal expectation that I love sin, as well as the sinner? After all, Paul told us to be in the world, but not of the world. You can't do that without recognising sin and disliking it enough to stay away from it. Christ taught us to love our neighbour as ourself, not love everything the neighbour the does. Can you love the sinner and hate the sin?

I see no reason at all to get emotionally involved in the negative behavior of others. If it negatively affects you or another, prevent or mitigate any harm through your actions if you can. In the absence of harmful effect, mind your own business.

And dude, most of those laws in Leviticus were probably intended for the protection of the Hebrews, possibly because of severe public health hazards of the time, so chill on the weird behavioral restrictions. I don't even believe in the guy, and I feel sorry for him for the reputation as some kinda screwball.

 

[Aqualung]

"Well, you'd probably not be saying I"m judging if you think I'm judging, because then you fall into your own sin. But if I think that homosexuality is a sin, I'd better be prepared to know what homosexuality is and to recognise it and to hate it, lest I go down that same path. "

Somebody else already brought it up, though.

I got it from that quote. Lest you go down what path? The path of homosexuality? That was what I am asking about, do you think if you don't hate homosexuality that you might become homosexual?

No, I believe that if I don't hate sin, I will revel in sin. I would probably at least go partway down the path to homosexuality, first sleeping with people to whom I wasn't married. I doubt I would get far enough to sleep with somebody from the same sex, but you never know.

Is that all that is stopping you? Hatred of the sin? Would you commit other sins if you didn't hate them?

I probably would. Even as it is, I have an exceptionally hard time not committing certain sins, because I don't hate them. Like alchohol (since you bring it up later). I love beer. It's hard to not drink it, because I still don't hate that sin.

If you hate drinking does it make you less likely to go down the path of an alcoholic, because you recognize it and hate it?

Yep. I can't imagine somebody who hates alcohol to drink it all too often.

 

[Aqualung]

You really think so? Again this goes back to my other post, do you believe you wouldn't be able to "avoid" being homosexual for example without being judgemental of someone who is?

I'm being judgemental of anybody who is. I'm seperating the sin from the sinner. I'm not being judgemental of the sinner at all, just the sin. I'm not being judgemental of anybody.

Why? What difference does it make to you how your neighbor lives if they are not impacting you? If your neighbor smokes in their home, you consider that sinful, but how does it effect you? Why do you have to condemn his "sin"? How does that benefit you?
What do you gain from judging others?

Not judging others. Looking at their sin and realising that's not something I should do. It's not judging anybody.

 

[Aqualung]

And dude, most of those laws in Leviticus

Who said anything about the laws of Leviticus?! :areyoucra