Love the sinner hate the sin?

[jeffrey]

That's where we will have to agree to differ. Michel is neither evil, nor good. BNut Michel can be lured into doing evil acts; but that still doesn't make him evil.

Any evil acts you care to share? *Does evil laugh whilst ringing hands* OOOHAHAHAA....

 

[lovedmb]

Is this even possible anymore? Every time I mention a hate for a sin, I automatically get labeled as hateful, spiteful, judgemental, hypocritical, un-christ-like, and a miriad of other insults (which, BTW, are directed at me, and not my "sin"). Is it now the societal expectation that I love sin, as well as the sinner? After all, Paul told us to be in the world, but not of the world. You can't do that without recognising sin and disliking it enough to stay away from it. Christ taught us to love our neighbour as ourself, not love everything the neighbour the does. Can you love the sinner and hate the sin?

But the difference is, why do you have to judge the sin? You don't have to love everything your neighbor does, or participate, but what right do you have to sit in judgement in any capacity? Who asked you to do that? If you don't want to be a part of it, don't. No asked you to. No one asked you to "embrace" the sin. What would you do if you sat in judgement of every sin? I see homosexuality picked out, but why not every other sin that God condemns? Why just the big "visible" sins? If you (general) were consistent in hating ALL the "sins" and told everyone you encountered how you love them but not their sinful ways, then maybe you wouldn't get labeled bigot, or whatever.

 

[michel]

But the difference is, why do you have to judge the sin? You don't have to love everything your neighbor does, or participate, but what right do you have to sit in judgement in any capacity? Who asked you to do that? If you don't want to be a part of it, don't. No asked you to. No one asked you to "embrace" the sin. What would you do if you sat in judgement of every sin? I see homosexuality picked out, but why not every other sin that God condemns? Why just the big "visible" sins? If you (general) were consistent in hating ALL the "sins" and told everyone you encountered how you love them but not their sinful ways, then maybe you wouldn't get labeled bigot, or whatever.

Hi Lovedmb,

As I notice that this is your first visit here, I thought I would take the opportunity to welcome you to Religious Forums;



I hope that you would feel able to introduce yourself to the other members of the forum, by posting on:- Are you new to ReligiousForums.com?



Please feel free to ask questions, if you have any. You might like to check out our article with links for our newer members; from there, there is also a link to the forum rules which you ought to look at.

Great post, BTW; you're already collecting Fruballs.

I hope you like it here.

 

[lovedmb]

Well, you'd probably not be saying I"m judging if you think I'm judging, because then you fall into your own sin. But if I think that homosexuality is a sin, I'd better be prepared to know what homosexuality is and to recognise it and to hate it, lest I go down that same path.

So you think homosexuality is "catching"? Is the only thing stopping you from being homosexual the fact that your church told you it was a sin?

 

[lovedmb]

Hi Lovedmb,

As I notice that this is your first visit here, I thought I would take the opportunity to welcome you to Religious Forums;



I hope that you would feel able to introduce yourself to the other members of the forum, by posting on:- Are you new to ReligiousForums.com?



Please feel free to ask questions, if you have any. You might like to check out our article with links for our newer members; from there, there is also a link to the forum rules which you ought to look at.

Great post, BTW; you're already collecting Fruballs.

I hope you like it here.

Thank you I will do an intro and look into this "fruballs" thing! I've been lurking for a bit, thought I'd dip my toes in the water. I frequent other debate boards, but I like to get a good feel for the dynamic of a board before I jump in, no need to make huge waves!

 

[Ðanisty]

That's where we will have to agree to differ. Michel is neither evil, nor good. BNut Michel can be lured into doing evil acts; but that still doesn't make him evil.

I think it depends on how one feels about the "sins" they are committing. For instance, I am bisexual which is generally considered a sin. Being bisexual is a part of me. I'm not lured into being bisexual...it's just an aspect of my being. Since bisexuality is a part of me and bisexuality is a sin, then part of me is a sin. This isn't really complicated. Actually, it's just the transitive property...if a=b and b=c, then a=c.

 

[Quiddity]

I think it depends on how one feels about the "sins" they are committing. For instance, I am bisexual which is generally considered a sin. Being bisexual is a part of me. I'm not lured into being bisexual...it's just an aspect of my being. Since bisexuality is a part of me and bisexuality is a sin, then part of me is a sin. This isn't really complicated. Actually, it's just the transitive property...if a=b and b=c, then a=c.

I wonder if a serial rapist said the same thing what you would say?

 

[pdoel]

I wonder if a serial rapist said the same thing what you would say?

The same could be said about anything. I'm Presbyterian. What if I thought Catholics were sinners because they don't follow my beliefs?

Just replace "serial rapist" with "Catholic" or "Mormon" or anything else you wish.

I must say. It sickens me when people automatically compare homosexuality to rapists, pedophiles, people into bestiality, or whatever.

 

[jeffrey]

This is what I don't understand about this thread. Christ taught love all, not love the sinner, hate the sin. There are, off the pop of my head, 3 parables about how do not tell others how to live their lives until you clean up your own, which is impossible to do. Christ taught compassion and tolerance towards others beliefs. So, before you tell others what is sin, make sure your life is without sin 1st.

 

[Ðanisty]

I wonder if a serial rapist said the same thing what you would say?

I'm not sure if I understand your question. Could you reword it?

I must say. It sickens me when people automatically compare homosexuality to rapists, pedophiles, people into bestiality, or whatever.

Agreed.

 

[Quiddity]

The same could be said about anything. I'm Presbyterian. What if I thought Catholics were sinners because they don't follow my beliefs?
Just replace "serial rapist" with "Catholic" or "Mormon" or anything else you wish.

That's true. But I don't base my morality off of feelings and my point was that Danisty could have used a stonger argument that is not based on feelings. Otherwise rapists could use similar lame arguments.

I must say. It sickens me when people automatically compare homosexuality to rapists, pedophiles, people into bestiality, or whatever.

I hope you don't think I was making such a comparison?

That clear things up Danisty?

 

[Ðanisty]

That clear things up Danisty?

Maybe. My point was that Michel isn't referring to his sins as integral parts of who he is. That doesn't apply to everyone and it probably doesn't even apply to every sin. My only reason in bringing up feelings at all was to point out that the reason we disagree is because we have a different view on what makes us who we are. Does that make sense?

Otherwise rapists could use similar lame arguments.

Rape is a part of a serial rapist. If rape is a sin then the rapist is a sinner and I hate both the sin and the sinner because they are connected. I'm not sure how this argument is lame.

 

[Smoke]

I must say. It sickens me when people automatically compare homosexuality to rapists, pedophiles, people into bestiality, or whatever.

Or murderers. Such people are just revealing the depth of their bigotry. A far more realistic comparison would be to people who are divorced and remarried, or even to celibates. Divorce and remarriage is directly contrary to the teachings of Jesus, and many of the arguments used against homosexuality would apply equally well to celibacy. But of course logic doesn't serve the purposes of those who want to demonize same-sex couples.

The prejudice against same-sex couples is every bit as irrational as a blithering loathing of stamp collectors, and homophobes are every bit as contemptible as racists.

 

[Quiddity]

Maybe. My point was that Michel isn't referring to his sins as integral parts of who he is. That doesn't apply to everyone and it probably doesn't even apply to every sin. My only reason in bringing up feelings at all was to point out that the reason we disagree is because we have a different view on what makes us who we are. Does that make sense?

If you think emotions, views, etc. are composed of matter then I can see why you would say that. But since I can't fathom what an emotion such as anger is composed of I won't hold my breath. So no, I do not think it is a part of you in this sense. You have the ability to turn it off or on. If you don't have such a capacity (such as a mental disease), then that person needs to go see a doctor.

Rape is a part of a serial rapist. If rape is a sin then the rapist is a sinner and I hate both the sin and the sinner because they are connected. I'm not sure how this argument is lame.

I think I made my case from what I said above. It is not a part of you.

 

[Ðanisty]

If you think emotions, views, etc. are composed of matter then I can see why you would say that. But since I can't fathom what an emotion such as anger is composed of I won't hold my breath. So no, I do not think it is a part of you in this sense. You have the ability to turn it off or on. If you don't have such a capacity (such as a mental disease), then that person needs to go see a doctor.

What does matter have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that that only thing that makes us who we are is our physical existence? And before you ask, no, I don't think serial rapists can just turn it off. I don't think pedophiles can turn it off either.

I think I made my case from what I said above. It is not a part of you.

I think you have only made your case to people who already agree with you. That is generally how this sort of thing goes though. From my perspective, none of your arguments make any sense.

 

[linwood]

I think I made my case from what I said above. It is not a part of you.

Is your heterosexuality a part of you Victor?

Don`t get me wrong as I agree with you, I don`t think Danitys bisexuality is any more a "part" of her than my heterosexuality is.
However to be consistent in your beliefs you`ll have to concede your heterosexuality isn`t a "part" of you.

Or is it?
I`ll have to give that some thought.

 

[lovedmb]

Is your heterosexuality a part of you Victor?

Don`t get me wrong as I agree with you, I don`t think Danitys bisexuality is any more a "part" of her than my heterosexuality is.
However to be consistent in your beliefs you`ll have to concede your heterosexuality isn`t a "part" of you.

Or is it?
I`ll have to give that some thought.

Why isn't your heterosexuality a part of you? Is it something you decided at some point? "Hmmmm, yup, I think I'm gonna be hetersexual."

 

[Aqualung]

But the difference is, why do you have to judge the sin?

Because you have to be able to look at it and say, "That's not a good thing for me to be doing" in order for you to be able to avoid it.

You don't have to love everything your neighbor does, or participate, but what right do you have to sit in judgement in any capacity?

What do you mean? If I have the right to not love everything my neighbour does, I would have to make a judgment in some capacity for me to be able to not love everything.

why not every other sin that God condemns? Why just the big "visible" sins? If you (general) were consistent in hating ALL the "sins" and told everyone you encountered how you love them but not their sinful ways, then maybe you wouldn't get labeled bigot, or whatever.

I do hate all sins. People tend to gravitate towards homosexuality. If you look back, I didn't even bring homosexuality into this discussion.

 

[Aqualung]

So you think homosexuality is "catching"? Is the only thing stopping you from being homosexual the fact that your church told you it was a sin?

How did you even get that from what I said? Are you even reading my posts?

 

[lovedmb]

How did you even get that from what I said? Are you even reading my posts?

"Well, you'd probably not be saying I"m judging if you think I'm judging, because then you fall into your own sin. But if I think that homosexuality is a sin, I'd better be prepared to know what homosexuality is and to recognise it and to hate it, lest I go down that same path. "

I got it from that quote. Lest you go down what path? The path of homosexuality? That was what I am asking about, do you think if you don't hate homosexuality that you might become homosexual? Is that all that is stopping you? Hatred of the sin? Would you commit other sins if you didn't hate them? For example, I am indifferent to drinking alcohol. No longer being LDS and living hte word of wisdom does not make me more inclined to drink. I *do* have a cocktail now and then, but it isn't something I'm overly concerned with. I don't need a commandment to not be an alcoholic. Does that make sense? If you hate drinking does it make you less likely to go down the path of an alcoholic, because you recognize it and hate it?