Love the sinner hate the sin?

[standing_alone]

No one can force an individual to accept Christ.

Well, they kind of do that with children in Sunday school.

 

[dawny0826]

Well, they kind of do that with children in Sunday school.

You can influence a child, certainly. But you CAN NOT force a person to accept Christ as their Saviour.

You can force your children to go to church every single Sunday...force them to go to choir practice...shove religion down their throat every single day of their lives and still...they can live out their lives without knowing Christ.

Christianity isn't a disease that can be caught. You HAVE to seek Christ out. You have to have the desire for rebirth in Christ. It's an entire life commitment.

(For the record...I was one of those children forced into religion. I rebelled for YEARS...and FINALLY after much struggle decided upon Christianity for myself. No one forced me. I went on my own accord. The change was INTERNAL.)

 

[standing_alone]

I was one of those children forced into religion.

So you would agree that religion can sometimes be forced on people?

 

[Ðanisty]

I definitely don't think God's going to force anyone to be in His presence who doesn't want to be. If you, for example, would be happier elsewhere, I would imagine that He'll respect your feelings in the matter.

Yes, I'm sure God doesn't really care...it won't take much convincing to get me to believe that. What about you? What about other Christians? Do you also respect non-Christians, particularly those on the Left Hand Path who have no love for your God? How does that affect the way Christians feel about supposed sins of non-Christians? According to Christianity (from my understanding of it), I am sinning because I hold Lucifer above God. Aqualung believes that I'm not a sinner because I feel I'm doing the right thing. I am, instead, misguided. Is this the perspective of most Christians or just Aqualung? If I am merely misguided, do Christians see this as an opportunity to "guide" me or do they respect that walk a different path? I'm interested in how this affects Christians...not how it affects God.

You can force your children to go to church every single Sunday...force them to go to choir practice...shove religion down their throat every single day of their lives and still...they can live out their lives without knowing Christ.

Do you approve?

 

[dawny0826]

So you would agree that religion can sometimes be forced on people?

There's a difference between religion and faith. Can religion be forced? Sure.

Faith however, cannot. And religion without faith is dead.

 

[standing_alone]

There's a difference between religion and faith. Can religion be forced? Sure.

Faith however, cannot. And religion without faith is dead.

I think I can accept that.

 

[dawny0826]

Do I approve of forcing religion down someone's throat?

No. It doesn't accomplish much of anything.

I do send my daughter to a Christian Private school. And we do go to church. I offer no apologies for either. My daughter loves her school and her friends. She loves our church.

I don't consider this shoving religion down her throat. Regardless of the influence...she will have to take her own spiritual path and will grow and mature spiritually in a way unique to her relationship (or lack thereof) with God. She may choose an entirely different path for herself.

 

[Smoke]

Hate the sin and love the sinner.

It basically means to hate, despise, reject, etc. the sin, but love the sinner so much as to help them out of the sin.

I'm willing to help Christian fundamentalists, biblical inerrantists, homophobes, and other sinners overcome their destructive behavior and sinful lifestyle choices, but it would do no good for me to impose my "help" on people who don't want to change, or to try to limit their civil rights.

 

[Ðanisty]

Do I approve of forcing religion down someone's throat?

No. It doesn't accomplish much of anything.

I do send my daughter to a Christian Private school. And we do go to church. I offer no apologies for either. My daughter loves her school and her friends. She loves our church.

I don't consider this shoving religion down her throat. Regardless of the influence...she will have to take her own spiritual path and will grow and mature spiritually in a way unique to her relationship (or lack thereof) with God. She may choose an entirely different path for herself.

I agree and I don't think what you're doing with your daughter is wrong. Private schools usually offer a better education. Also, if she loves school and church, there's no reason to take that away. I assume she's free to ask questions and think for herself...it sounds like it anyway.

 

[dawny0826]

I agree and I don't think what you're doing with your daughter is wrong. Private schools usually offer a better education. Also, if she loves school and church, there's no reason to take that away. I assume she's free to ask questions and think for herself...it sounds like it anyway.

She really enjoys it. And the teacher to student ratio is awesome.

She's only four...just in K-3.

 

[Squirt]

Yes, I'm sure God doesn't really care...it won't take much convincing to get me to believe that.

Oh, I think He cares. I think He cares very much. I just don't think He will try to force you into worshipping Him.

What about you? What about other Christians? Do you also respect non-Christians, particularly those on the Left Hand Path who have no love for your God? How does that affect the way Christians feel about supposed sins of non-Christians?

I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for in an answer. I try to respect everyone who is on a path they sincerely believe is the right one. I'm sure a lot of good people have no love for my God. They have a right to their beliefs, and their relationship (or lack thereof) with my God is between them and Him, not between them and me. I don't personally feel that their choice is the right one, but they don't believe mine is either. To these individuals, I say, "Let's just live and let live."

According to Christianity (from my understanding of it), I am sinning because I hold Lucifer above God. Aqualung believes that I'm not a sinner because I feel I'm doing the right thing. I am, instead, misguided. Is this the perspective of most Christians or just Aqualung? If I am merely misguided, do Christians see this as an opportunity to "guide" me or do they respect that walk a different path? I'm interested in how this affects Christians...not how it affects God.

I can't speak for "most Christians." Personally, I'm willing to let you walk your own path. I suspect that I have about as much of a chance of steering you towards worshipping God as you have of steering me towards worshipping Lucifer.

 

[Ðanisty]

To these individuals, I say, "Let's just live and let live."

Let's!

I can't speak for "most Christians." Personally, I'm willing to let you walk your own path. I suspect that I have about as much of a chance of steering you towards worshipping God as you have of steering me towards worshipping Lucifer.

I would say that is a very accurate statement.

 

[linwood]

Linwood actually said my truth was wrong.

No, I did not.

I said....

"But it `s not the truth Aqualung.
It`s not even your truth.
It`s truth that was given to you for some unknown reason."

When I asked you your reason for coming to one aspect of this truth you said...

My reason is revelation given by the prophet for this.

Essentially proving my point.

Someone told you this was the truth and you accepted it as the truth.
You did not determine this truth for yourself.
It is part of a much larger truth that you simply accepted in it`s entirety.

You simply accept it because you believe your prophet is theistically infallible.

 

[pdoel]

Do you think we are saved even when we make no effort whatsoever to repent? Do you think that Jesus' sacrifice paid for the sins of those who devote their entire lives to being wicked?

I would totally agree that we are all in equal need of a Savior, since God requires us to be free from sin in order to enter into His presence. On the other hand, I have a really hard time believing that the person who loses his temper and flips off some guy on the freeway has commited as serious a sin as the guy who pulls out a gun and shoots him. Surely you don't believe that, do you?

I'm pretty sure I must have at least sort of misread you. Would you care to comment or clarify what you mean? Thanks.

To be honest, I don't have all the answers. I think we all have a reason for being here. A path that God has chosen for us. I think we are all sinners, but I also think we were all saved when Jesus died on the cross.

You here so much from certain sects that unless you follow "Their" religion, you will go to Hell. I don't buy that. Let's just say, that Christianity is right on the money, that Jesus was God's Son, and he died for our sins. And that if you accept Christ as your savior, you too, will be saved. I don't understand how someone could be born in the Middle East, be raised as a Muslim, NEVER hear of Jesus' teachings, but live a VERY good life. Follow their religion well, treat others with kindness, and follow all the laws of their religion. I don't understand how they could spend an eternity in Hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Now, I understand some religions have contingency plans for such people.

But I will even go a step further. I think we ALL have a purpose. We all have a path. If a guy walks into a McDonald's an opens fire, killing several people. Guaranteed, at the funeral, you were hear people giving their condolonces, and you will hear something along the lines of, "I'm so sorry for your loss. Just have peace knowing (so and so) is in a better place, and we may not understand it, but we know God has a plan for (so and so).

So, if this was God's plan, as evil as the person who did the shooting seems, how can even they go to Hell, if that was God's plan?

That's something I really struggle with, and something that has kind of been a driving force in my beliefs.

Many believe that someone could live a horrible life, sin constantly, show no remorse, and at the age of 85, on their death bed, repent, and be forgiven of all sins and be saved. Many of these same people believe that someone could live a rather good life, accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, but because they are gay, and live a homosexual lifestyle, they are going to hell, no matter how good a life they lead.

I don't buy that.

 

[retrorich]

To be honest, I don't have all the answers. I think we all have a reason for being here. A path that God has chosen for us. I think we are all sinners, but I also think we were all saved when Jesus died on the cross.

You here so much from certain sects that unless you follow "Their" religion, you will go to Hell. I don't buy that. Let's just say, that Christianity is right on the money, that Jesus was God's Son, and he died for our sins. And that if you accept Christ as your savior, you too, will be saved. I don't understand how someone could be born in the Middle East, be raised as a Muslim, NEVER hear of Jesus' teachings, but live a VERY good life. Follow their religion well, treat others with kindness, and follow all the laws of their religion. I don't understand how they could spend an eternity in Hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Now, I understand some religions have contingency plans for such people.

But I will even go a step further. I think we ALL have a purpose. We all have a path. If a guy walks into a McDonald's an opens fire, killing several people. Guaranteed, at the funeral, you were hear people giving their condolonces, and you will hear something along the lines of, "I'm so sorry for your loss. Just have peace knowing (so and so) is in a better place, and we may not understand it, but we know God has a plan for (so and so).

So, if this was God's plan, as evil as the person who did the shooting seems, how can even they go to Hell, if that was God's plan?

That's something I really struggle with, and something that has kind of been a driving force in my beliefs.

Many believe that someone could live a horrible life, sin constantly, show no remorse, and at the age of 85, on their death bed, repent, and be forgiven of all sins and be saved. Many of these same people believe that someone could live a rather good life, accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, but because they are gay, and live a homosexual lifestyle, they are going to hell, no matter how good a life they lead.

I don't buy that.

Well said, my friend! Frubals to you.

 

[michel]

Because for some the sin is an integral part of who they are...the sin is inseperable from the sinner. I would assume you think I'm a sinner because I admire and respect Lucifer and look to him for guidance. My faith in Lucifer is such a part of me that it can't be taken away without me becoming someone else or broken entirely. If you hate that part of me, then you may as well hate me. I'm a big girl. I can handle it.

I don't buy into that. The sin is not an integral part of who you are. For example, I use what could well be defined as 'witchcraft' to try and help people (faith healing, and other types of healing); does that make me immediately a bad guy ? (I am not saying I am a good guy, I was only using an example that was staring me in the face.

Just because you admire and respect lucifer (which I must admit I don't understand - but I don't need to), if you are a good person, and your heart is full of love, and you are honest with yourself, I think you are as good as anyone else.

At the end of the day, what is in your heart will be the criterium for salvation.

 

[Ðanisty]

I don't buy into that. The sin is not an integral part of who you are. For example, I use what could well be defined as 'witchcraft' to try and help people (faith healing, and other types of healing); does that make me immediately a bad guy ? (I am not saying I am a good guy, I was only using an example that was staring me in the face.

Just because you admire and respect lucifer (which I must admit I don't understand - but I don't need to), if you are a good person, and your heart is full of love, and you are honest with yourself, I think you are as good as anyone else.

At the end of the day, what is in your heart will be the criterium for salvation.

But it doesn't change the fact that it's a sin. Of course good people can commit "sins" because according to the church everybody does. Is using witchcraft a part of what makes you michel? Of course it is...it's something you believe in. If I were to say that witchcraft is evil, I'd be saying part of michel is evil.

 

[Aqualung]

If I am merely misguided, do Christians see this as an opportunity to "guide" me or do they respect that walk a different path?

I see it as an opportunity to "guide" you. I don't respect that you walk a different path, but if I knew you well enough to try to "guide" you, I would respect you enough to not "guide" you if you didn't want it.

 

[Aqualung]

No, I did not.

I said....

"But it `s not the truth Aqualung.
It`s not even your truth.
It`s truth that was given to you for some unknown reason."

When I asked you your reason for coming to one aspect of this truth you said...

My reason is revelation given by the prophet for this.

Essentially proving my point.

Someone told you this was the truth and you accepted it as the truth.
You did not determine this truth for yourself.
It is part of a much larger truth that you simply accepted in it`s entirety.

You simply accept it because you believe your prophet is theistically infallible.

Yes, because when that prophet "gave" it to me, I automatically accepted it without thinking about anything. It's not so much that the prophet "gave" it to me as he offered it to me, and I accepted.

 

[michel]

But it doesn't change the fact that it's a sin. Of course good people can commit "sins" because according to the church everybody does. Is using witchcraft a part of what makes you michel? Of course it is...it's something you believe in. If I were to say that witchcraft is evil, I'd be saying part of michel is evil.

If I were to say that witchcraft is evil, I'd be saying part of michel is evil

That's where we will have to agree to differ. Michel is neither evil, nor good. BNut Michel can be lured into doing evil acts; but that still doesn't make him evil.