Looking for answers.....

[Wu Wei]

Knowing the history of scripture is helpful but can also get in the way. My attitude is that scriptures contain the Truth, often expressed symbolically, but are not the literal Truth. So when I read something in a piece of scripture, my attitude is not whether or not something literally happened but whether or not there's a spiritual message that is relevant to me.

That is how I look at it.

Part of your problem is that there are so many different views about a religion. Take Christianity. Some say that the Jesus is the only way. Others say that the Christ is the same as the Avatar and rank Jesus as one with Buddha, Krishna and so forth with the teaching having different emphases depending on the needs of people in varying times and places with the message always being at the heart one and the same.

I see your point, but I do not see it as a problem, I see the semantics of the various religions as a problem, because to me they are not all the different. They just use different words to describe what is basically the same thing.

The minister who ran away from me; the discussion was about His faith, Presbyterian, Catholicism and the Native American religion (the are we were in was once very well populated by the Mohawks of the Iroquois Confederacy. Earlier in ou talk he referrred fo the Iroquois view of religion as pagan and polytheistic...and since they did see greater than one God I it could be defined as polytheistic. Our talk went on to Presbyterian vs Catholicism. He felt they were simply 2 different approaches to the same God. We discussed Angles in Catholocism and how they were there to assist God. That is when I said that the religion of the Iroquois had only one great god, like Catholicism. And the Iroquois knew that this one great God had a lot of stuff he/she had to take care of so it is likely he had help therefore 'minor gods'. I then asked what is the difference between angles, who are considered divine, who help god and a lot of minor Gods that help the one great god.

He stopped, looked at me for a second or two...then quickly looked at his watch, said "Oh, is that the time" took a 180 degree turn and exited as fast as he possibly could. This is what I mean by semantics

 

[Wu Wei]

I think this thread is, so far, illuminating Consider the Ravens

 

[Revoltingest]

Answers are over-rated.
Think of all the times people told you they have them.
How very few made any sense?
And even those were nicht einmal falsch.

 

[sun rise]

Answers are over-rated.
Think of all the times people told you they have them.
How very few made any sense?
And even those were nicht einmal falsch.

You almost channeled this:

 

[Wu Wei]

Answers are over-rated.
Think of all the times people told you they have them.
How very few made any sense?
And even those were nicht einmal falsch.

That is not far from the truth...but based on your premises about answers I am not sure I should believe anything you just said

Answers are not always going always to make sense when dealing in religion because there always will be a part of it that totally depends on faith, and there is nothing wrong with that at all IMHO. We do not have the answers for everything and based on our knowledge at this very moment...10,000 years from now they could be looking at us as complete idiots based on the knowledge they have at that time. What we are so certain of today may be false tomorrow...don't believe me, look at how we looked at the world before the discovery of Plate tectonics and look at how scientists of the early 1900s viewed Alfred Wegener.... or Einstein's view of Black hole theory and Quantum physics and what we know now

And I honestly have no problem with someone in a religious, spiritual or faith based discussion saying; "you know, I don't know" or "I simply have faith" but my issue with this, that started this thread, came when there is no explanation but there most certainly was accusation and condemnation.

 

[Revoltingest]

You almost channeled this:

I know it's predictable, but I really liked that show.
"Hammer Into Anvil" was my favorite episode.

 

[sun rise]

He stopped, looked at me for a second or two...then quickly looked at his watch, said "Oh, is that the time" took a 180 degree turn and exited as fast as he possibly could. This is what I mean by semantics

but my issue with this, that started this thread, came when there is no explanation but there most certainly was accusation and condemnation.

There are some like that. The only thing I can think of is to leave

 

[Revoltingest]

That is not far from the truth...but based on your premises about answers I am not sure I should believe anything you just said

Exactly!

 

[sun rise]

I know it's predictable, but I really liked that show.
"Hammer Into Anvil" was my favorite episode.

I liked it as well and had much fun discussing the psychological and political frames-of-reference. I also once made a "pilgrimage" to Portmeirion to see what it really looked like as part of a visit to the UK.

 

[Revoltingest]

I liked it as well and had much fun discussing the psychological and political frames-of-reference. I also once made a "pilgrimage" to Portmeirion to see what it really looked like as part of a visit to the UK.

NERD!

 

[Truthseeker]

I have an alternative to three Gods in one. Christ and the Holy Spirit are perfect reflections of God, but not God Himself. Christ denied that He was God, He said the Father is greater than him. Why not take Him at His word. Christ is the Image of God, but is the servant of God.

 

[InChrist]

I never understood or believed the concept of the Trinity, or even understood the Bible...until I believed the basic gospel message and realized the reality that I needed a Savior and was born again. Then I saw everything in the Bible with new understanding, including the triune nature of God.

 

[Spice]

IMO we should never cease our seeking, or our progressing. For this reason my faith journey has gone through many phases as you have described yours thus far. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't change those experiences. It helped me accept ". . . beyond controversy, great is the mystery of our religion. . ." 1 Tim 3:16
as well as "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Eccles 1:18

When it comes to those who hit a brick wall in open religious discussion with me and resort to my being a lost soul, or in need of the Savior, or going straight to hell, etc., I simply respond, and I truly mean it, that if that's God's will, pray it be so, for my faith is in Him completely!

Now, as far as your dilemma of grasping the concept of the Trinity, I understand! I never did either. There was a time I said okay to the water theory (ice-water-steam), but it didn't feel right. Then I went with the relationship theory (son-husband-father) and was soon "corrected" that was heretical, which was fine because that didn't feel right either. So I gave up for a while. Then I discovered the white light theory and it felt very right. Now mind you, conservative fundamentalist still tell me I'm wrong, but this one feels very right and fits into the deists/pantheist (possibly more identifiable as Agnostic-theism) in me from my Algonquian ancestry. The only way to have "white light" is to have an equal mix of blue, green, and red light, or in short: Father (the unknowable), Son (physical), and Holy Ghost (spiritual) equals GOD. Now this science of light was not known when the Trinity entered into the Christian belief system, but it gives a plausible answer for today's questioning Christian and perhaps more clarity will be available 2,000 years in the future.

In the meantime, may Gitchi Manitou (the Great Spirit of the Algonquians) and/or Hawenniyu (He Who Rules the Iroquois) be with you always on your journeys!

 

[PureX]

... By the way, that trinity thing is about the multiple ways "God" is conceptually manifested, it's not about three different Gods.

1. "God the Father" = a conception of God as being outside, apart from, and beyond us. It's God as the ultimate power and mystery.

2. "God the Son" = the human manifestation of God's divine nature and spirit, embodied and exemplified for us by the Christ: Jesus of Nazareth.

3. "God the Holy Spirit" = the reflection of God's divine spirit that exists within us all, as we are all God's creations and therefor reflections of God's spirit.

So it's not three different gods, it's one God being expressed in three different forms, each according to our conceptual perspective. Most religions perceive and label different divinities as expressions of a singular, inexplicable "godhead".

 

[allfoak]

getting told I'm doomed.....

I am not an expert on any of this, nor do I claim to be. I am reading the bible and I am simply trying to understand

I was having a conversation with a person who is a Christian. I am a seeker, a westerner and I am trying to understand the religions of my culture.

After the discussion got to the infallibility of the bible and the trinity. Once i threw the First Council of Nicaea that part of the discussion got ignored....

On to the Trinity; I was then accused of thinking I was an expert on the trinity while I was in the early stages of seeking God. I said I was not an expert on it at all, that it just did not make since to me and I am trying to understand the concept. It seemed that asking questions was equated to me thinking I'm an expert

His proof for the trinity ws based on the similarities between God and Jesus. I to have similarities to my father and even my Grand father, heck people even use to look at old picture of my grandfather as a boy and ask my mother how they got me in old clothes and made the picture look so old....and I am not my father or my grandfather.... I am part of them.... and I will admit I I would not call any of us Holy..... The result was not more discussion of explanation, it was... I need to accept the Trinity as truth or I am doomed to eternal damnation.....

This now has me thinking that Salvation is exclusive and that many on the planet have no chance of salvation if that is the case.... Jewish people, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoist, Shintoist, Pagans, etc.... none of them will be saved and all are doomed....like I apparently am because I do not understand the trinity and lack understanding as to how it can be possible.... I ask for explanation...I get told accept or else...

I am not trying to down religion, I am actually trying to understand it and possibly be more involved in it... but the attitude I received at the end of that discussion is doing more to turn me away than to bring me closer.

The answers are found inside of us.
The Bible was written to be used as a catylist to help find the answers within ourselves.
Know thyself.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

People do not understand the word "God". God is not a person but more like a family. One family is made up of more than one person. "God" is made up of the Heavenly Father and Jesus. You should not pray to God but to the Father. Jesus and the Father are two separate persons but together they are God. There is nothing in the Bible about a trinity. Only the Father and the Son. The so-called Holy Spirit is God's power and ability not a separate person.

 

[Grandliseur]

On to the Trinity; I was then accused of thinking I was an expert on the trinity while I was in the early stages of seeking God.

I have been studying the Bible since small and am now old. I do not believe in the Trinity, and it is not taught in the Bible. However, the problem is so intractable that it cannot be solved.

The result was not more discussion of explanation, it was... I need to accept the Trinity as truth or I am doomed to eternal damnation.....

That is a poor method imo.

This now has me thinking that Salvation is exclusive and that many on the planet have no chance of salvation if that is the case.... Jewish people, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoist, Shintoist, Pagans, etc.... none of them will be saved and all are doomed....like I apparently am because I do not understand the trinity and lack understanding as to how it can be possible.... I ask for explanation...I get told accept or else...

Well, the message is clear, namely, that obedient Christians, righteous ones - are promised salvation. However, we are also told that those not in this faith get judged on the basis of their own consciences and their actions. While a great many may not survive, some may be given salvation, or the chance to get it.

I am non-denominational, but very well versed in my Bible. If you have questions, I will try to answer them. If you need to, you can even start a conversation between the two of us. But, according to your desire, do as you feel compelled to.

 

[dfnj]

I never understood or believed the concept of the Trinity, or even understood the Bible...until I believed the basic gospel message and realized the reality that I needed a Savior and was born again. Then I saw everything in the Bible with new understanding, including the triune nature of God.

Okay troll, I'll bite. What is the basic gospel message?

 

[dfnj]

Well, the message is clear, namely, that obedient Christians, righteous ones - are promised salvation.

Obedience is the prime directive. If only the rest of the World would be obedient Christians then Satan would not be so powerful. This is why Christians scare me so much. I'm afraid they are going to get overwhelmed by so many people rejecting Christianity that a few crazies decide to nuke the whole World to get back at Satan. Christians say they worship a God of love but it sure seems like Christians take great pleasure in seeing other people suffer and take great pleasure in the idea that people they disagree with or don't like will suffer eternal damnation. There are sure a lot of people who think war in the middle east will bring the second coming of Christ. Christianity to me seems more like a dooms day death cult than a religion based on love. To me love is small acts of kindness and caring for someone without expecting anything in return. Hate is taking pleasure in the idea of other people having pain or suffering.

 

[dfnj]

... By the way, that trinity thing is about the multiple ways "God" is conceptually manifested, it's not about three different Gods.

1. "God the Father" = a conception of God as being outside, apart from, and beyond us. It's God as the ultimate power and mystery.

2. "God the Son" = the human manifestation of God's divine nature and spirit, embodied and exemplified for us by the Christ: Jesus of Nazareth.

3. "God the Holy Spirit" = the reflection of God's divine spirit that exists within us all, as we are all God's creations and therefor reflections of God's spirit.

So it's not three different gods, it's one God being expressed in three different forms, each according to our conceptual perspective. Most religions perceive and label different divinities as expressions of a singular, inexplicable "godhead".

I think God is a woman for two reason:

1. Women give birth. God created the Universe which is kind of like giving birth.

2. Women are just way too damn beautiful to have been created by a male God.