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Looking for answers.....

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Obedience is the prime directive. If only the rest of the World would be obedient Christians then Satan would not be so powerful. This is why Christians scare me so much. I'm afraid they are going to get overwhelmed by so many people rejecting Christianity that a few crazies decide to nuke the whole World to get back at Satan. Christians say they worship a God of love but it sure seems like Christians take great pleasure in seeing other people suffer and take great pleasure in the idea that people they disagree with or don't like will suffer eternal damnation. There are sure a lot of people who think war in the middle east will bring the second coming of Christ. Christianity to me seems more like a dooms day death cult than a religion based on love. To me love is small acts of kindness and caring for someone without expecting anything in return. Hate is taking pleasure in the idea of other people having pain or suffering.
You are mixing a lot of things here, making it hard to answer one thing.
I don't take pleasure in pain. At the same time when I see a wicked person attacking an old man on the street by punching him unexpected in the head with some heavy object in the head, I don't mind this wicked one's death be it painful or quick. But, let him die. When I see police brutality, I don't mind seeing these executed by people who are fed up with this sheet.
There are all kinds of problems. When I see people being gathered up by immigration for no reason, as things seem to be going now, this also pisses me off.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
You are mixing a lot of things here, making it hard to answer one thing.
I don't take pleasure in pain. At the same time when I see a wicked person attacking an old man on the street by punching him unexpected in the head with some heavy object in the head, I don't mind this wicked one's death be it painful or quick. But, let him die. When I see police brutality, I don't mind seeing these executed by people who are fed up with this sheet.
There are all kinds of problems. When I see people being gathered up by immigration for no reason, as things seem to be going now, this also pisses me off.

That is where I am different than you. I don't want to see the wicked suffer. I take no pleasure in it. I have no problem with secular justice. I just think eternal damnation is immoral, cruel, and unusual punishment. Everyone Hitler killed are basking in the glow of everlasting eternal heavenly bliss. I don't think people should suffer for all eternity for finite crimes. But I've had this argument with people many times. And it seems I have more love and forgiveness in my heart than most people. Most people want to see other people burn. I think most people jsut like the idea that no one escapes God's justice because so many people escape secular justice. I just don't think our God of love would allow people to be tortured immorally.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
I just think eternal damnation is immoral, cruel, and unusual punishment.
Sorry, we are not on the same page. Death to me is the return to nothing, to the not being, and it matters not if you are wicked or not.

God punishes people while they live, and those he approves of get a resurrection, recreation, in Paradise once it is established on earth. There is neither bliss nor torment after death on my page.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Sorry, we are not on the same page.
God punishes people while they live, and those he approves of get a resurrection, recreation, in Paradise once it is established on earth.

We do not have to be on the same page. Some of these questions cannot be proven one way or the other with evidence. For these types of religious questions we have to come up with an answer we choose to be true as an article of faith. My choice and your choice may be different.

I do not believe God punishes people while they live. As far as I can tell God is indifferent to how we behave. Based on human experiments there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. God is clearly pro-choice. Also, nature is relentless in executing the laws of physics perfectly every time. If I drop something it hits the ground every time. So it seems to me, as far as I can tell, God does not participate in the day to day affairs of our lives. At least not mine.

An omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us. I don't see why God would "approve" of anything we do.

In terms of the "resurrection, recreation, in Paradise once it is established on earth" are all articles of faith. But I do not believe saying magic words absolves you of sin. It is just way too easy to get forgiveness from God. I think when you sin you have to get your absolution from the person you have sinned against.

I think after we die we will be too busy experiencing eternal heavenly bliss to even care about the resurrection, recreation, and Paradise on earth.

My problem with the Paradise established on earth idea is I hope the Christians who are full of hate don't set off a bunch of nukes in a vain attempt to bring about the second coming of Christ and the Paradise you are referring to. I would like to hope Christians have enough love in their hearts not to kill billions of innocent women and children.

Death to me is the return to nothing, to the not being, and it matters not if you are wicked or not.
There is neither bliss nor torment after death on my page.

Since no one really knows what happens after you die this question must be answered with an article of faith. I do not believe nothing happens when we die. I believe what happens when we die is a very profound experience with God. I like to use near death experiences as supporting evidence to my way of thinking. But even with a few shreds of evidence it is mostly a chosen article of faith that cannot be proven to be true but is just chosen to be true.

So here is what I think happens when you die. People who have near-death experiences talk about a white light. I think what happens when we die, as our brain shuts down and the electrical signals fade, we have a God experience. When we face the light we look into the face of God. We are so enamored and awed by God's infinite beauty all time stops. We are no longer capable of having conscious thoughts, we are at peace, and we experience eternal heavenly bliss at that moment. Although it may only last a few seconds, like car-crash time when everything slows down, our experience looking into the face of God effectively lasts an eternity. Experiencing God's infinite beauty is the greatest possible experience anyone can have. It is the absolute height of what a human being can and is capable of experiencing as bliss.

Some people, for whatever reason, turn away from looking to the face of God. Each of us is our own greatest critic. Many people think they are not worthy to look into the face of God. So people turn away from God during this critical moment. When then happens is the brain has a free-form delusion where the conscious self has omnipotent powers. The brain becomes its own reality. Imagination and reality become the same word because the brain is no longer connected to the outside world. At this point, using new found omnipotent powers the conscious self works out every guilt, every regret, every short-coming until the person rids themselves of all their self-loathing. At this point, the person then turns back and looks into the face of God. Except this time the person doesn't look away and the person then experiences eternal heavenly bliss like everyone else. Everyone gets peace. Our omnipotent God neatly collects every soul and spirit back to the source from whence they all came.

As part of the self working out every short-coming I was thinking something like the following would happen as part of the free-form delusion. You would relive every day of your life. But as you do so every time you sin against someone you get to experience the sin from the other person's point of view and experience. You then repeat each day of your life but while it is repeating you get to make other choices so you can learn how not to sin. You then repeat each day of your life until you figure out way to get through your whole life without sinning. Then God takes you back in since you've been fully rehabilitated. God's power to rehabilitate even the worse sinner among us has no limits!

There is probably no better way for God to win the hearts of people who turn away from Him than by giving them everything their heart desires. Omnipotent powers may sound like a great deal but it would get boring in a seemingly short time. After having sex with two chicks over 10,000 times it all gets a little old. Staring into God's infinite beauty is our greatest possible experience. No one would choose not to experience eternal heavenly bliss at some point.

So in my way of thinking, everyone gets saved. Everyone gets to experience eternal heavenly bliss because everyone experiences the white light when they die. Now you could say it's not fair that Hitler or anyone wicked should get to experience eternal heavenly bliss. The thing is everyone Hitler killed or sinned against is experiencing eternal heavenly bliss. So the people Hitler killed or sinned against do not really care what happens to Hitler.

If we want justice we have to do while people are alive. Sin has to be absolved through the person sinned against, or in my way of thinking, justice does not occur. People want to believe there is justice in the after life because they feel they have no justice in the real life. Plus I think people are just full of hate and want to see other people suffer for their sins. But from an omnipotent God's perspective, it doesn't really matter. It's not like God is going to die if too few people make it into heaven.

Is there life after experiencing eternal heavenly bliss is a good question. I don't think so. I think once you get into the Bliss your consciousness melts into the mind of God and you return back to the source. It's a good way to go.

Again, I can't prove any of this is true. This whole thing is an article of faith. I'm sure you think your dogma is "right" and my dogma is "wrong". If you do, then prove to me why your dogma is more right than mine. Maybe your way is better but I would have to be convinced.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
I do not believe God punishes people while they live.
This is where the authority you accept as conclusive for your beliefs plays a part. If your authority is yourself, then have fun.
31 If the righteous is repaid on earth,
how much more the wicked and the sinner!
12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth lovingkindness; For thou renderest to every man according to his work.

 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
It is just way too easy to get forgiveness from God. I think when you sin you have to get your absolution from the person you have sinned against.
Most people don't have any scriptural idea about what this is. As stated, God punishes us for our sins. Forgiveness comes after repentance only, however, punishment cannot be avoided even when forgiven for serious sin.

There is nothing simple about this. Those who are unrepentant shall only be forgiven once they have paid with their life and then it is eternal sleep, the return to non existence. Those who are forgiven their serious sins shall be punished appropriately according to the measure their sin demands in the eyes of God.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
This whole thing is an article of faith. I'm sure you think your dogma is "right" and my dogma is "wrong". If you do, then prove to me why your dogma is more right than mine. Maybe your way is better but I would have to be convinced.
Dogma can only be shown to be true or false by the acceptance of an authority on the issue. Mine is the Bible. If you accept the Bible perhaps only may we come to agree, but many do not even though the claim is made of having one authority.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I think God is a woman for two reason:

1. Women give birth. God created the Universe which is kind of like giving birth.
The feminine 'creator/sustainer' god image was one of the earliest of mankind. Unfortunately it has long since been replaced by the masculine 'power/authority' god image. And not for the better, in my opinion.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
This is where the authority you accept as conclusive for your beliefs plays a part. If your authority is yourself, then have fun.
31 If the righteous is repaid on earth,
how much more the wicked and the sinner!
12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth lovingkindness; For thou renderest to every man according to his work.

You have to admit there are a lot of evil wicked people who seemingly live blessed lives. Just because the Bible says it doesn't mean it's true. The righteous don't always finish first and you know it.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Most people don't have any scriptural idea about what this is. As stated, God punishes us for our sins. Forgiveness comes after repentance only, however, punishment cannot be avoided even when forgiven for serious sin.

There is nothing simple about this. Those who are unrepentant shall only be forgiven once they have paid with their life and then it is eternal sleep, the return to non existence. Those who are forgiven their serious sins shall be punished appropriately according to the measure their sin demands in the eyes of God.

You don't know if God punishes us for our sins. Have you died and gone to Heaven to find out? God forgives everyone just by saying some magic words or having the right attitude is just way too easy. What about the people you've sinned against? Don't you think they are part of the equation?

I have no idea what matters in the eyes of our omnipotent God. The only articles of faith I can come up with for God is what makes us happy makes God happy. What makes us sad makes God sad. So our spiritual goal is to help ourselves and other people have enthusiasm in participating in God's creation. But I have no evidence to support this idea.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Dogma can only be shown to be true or false by the acceptance of an authority on the issue. Mine is the Bible. If you accept the Bible perhaps only may we come to agree, but many do not even though the claim is made of having one authority.

People idol worship the words of the Bible. You do realizing the words talking about Jesus in the Bible are NOT a religion. The men talking about Jesus in the Bible are men. Jesus Christ was a great Jewish rabbi. He had some wonderful teachings. But people idolizing the words come off to me like fans of an NFL football team.

And when you read words you only understand something so well. The way you really understand a subject is by writing about it. If you really want to understand the Bible you have to write it out in your own words. But most people do not care to take the time to really learn what it is they supposedly believe. Instead, they prefer to be just told what to believe by some "authority". For you, you claim the Bible is your authority. For me I cannot accept the Bible as the word of God. I believe the Bible is words written by men who had certain bigotries and prejudices based on the historical context of their lives.

For example, I could go through a 100 lines of scripture pointing out why it is immoral to accept the Bibles teaching. But instead I will do just two for you to comment on:

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

The implication here is slavery is morally okay. In what Universe is owning another person morally okay? If you are typical Christian you will probably say nothing. Meaning the Bible is the word of God and if the Bible says slavery is okay then slaver is okay. But if you are man with any backbone at all you will state: "Yes, slavery is not morally okay." In all my countless conversations with Christians I have never heard one say slavery is immoral. Am I in league with Satan for thinking slavery is immoral? Am I possessed by Satan for thinking Peter 2:18 may be one the most evil and immoral sentiments I've ever read in my life? Would you be in league with Satan if you agreed with me?

So how can you say your religion, Christianity, is based on a God of love? Because in reality, it really seems like a God of hate, war, authoritarianism, oppression, sadism, masochism, and many other morally reprehensible ways of being based on the scriptures I've read in the Bible. Generally, I don't trust someone telling me what to think. The men who wrote the words in the Bible have no greater moral authority than I do. I would rather trust my own inner moral compass than goat herders from 2000 years ago who did not read a single book in their lives.

Here's another example: “So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)

Masters, slaves, rape, concubines, donkeys! Oh my! Do you think it was very Christian of the master to put the concubine outside so she could be raped? Answer this one question otherwise there really is no point in us having any conversation at all. I only like to talk to people who have some shred of human decency and morality.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The feminine 'creator/sustainer' god image was one of the earliest of mankind. Unfortunately it has long since been replaced by the masculine 'power/authority' god image. And not for the better, in my opinion.
In the Hindu-framework, two of the yugas have the masculine dominant and two feminine. Many believe that the Kali Yuga, dark age, is ending and the Sat Yuga, golden age, is dawning. In this tradition, feminine energy is coming to the fore.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
getting told I'm doomed.....
.

I wouldn't say that. :D

I am not an expert on any of this, nor do I claim to be. I am reading the bible and I am simply trying to understand
.
That is a good thing. God is never upset with people who have questions to understand. Even Mary, who was the vessel that God used to birth The Word as Jesus, had questions.

I was having a conversation with a person who is a Christian. I am a seeker, a westerner and I am trying to understand the religions of my culture.

After the discussion got to the infallibility of the bible and the trinity. Once i threw the First Council of Nicaea that part of the discussion got ignored....

On to the Trinity; I was then accused of thinking I was an expert on the trinity while I was in the early stages of seeking God. I said I was not an expert on it at all, that it just did not make since to me and I am trying to understand the concept. It seemed that asking questions was equated to me thinking I'm an expert

His proof for the trinity ws based on the similarities between God and Jesus. I to have similarities to my father and even my Grand father, heck people even use to look at old picture of my grandfather as a boy and ask my mother how they got me in old clothes and made the picture look so old....and I am not my father or my grandfather.... I am part of them.... and I will admit I I would not call any of us Holy..... The result was not more discussion of explanation, it was... I need to accept the Trinity as truth or I am doomed to eternal damnation.....
.
Since God is the judge of souls, and not man, I think this person has exceeded his pay grade

Although the "if A=B and B=C, therefore A=C" is correct, I think the easiest to way to see it is John 1:1. In the beginning was The Word, The Word was with God and The Word was God.... 14 And The Word was made flesh..."

Another way to understand it is to look at the makeup of man... spirit,soul,body. - three parts but one person.
.
This now has me thinking that Salvation is exclusive and that many on the planet have no chance of salvation if that is the case.... Jewish people, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoist, Shintoist, Pagans, etc.... none of them will be saved and all are doomed....like I apparently am because I do not understand the trinity and lack understanding as to how it can be possible.... I ask for explanation...I get told accept or else...
.
Quite frankly, I don't see where the Bible says you have to understand the Trinity to be saved. Did he give you a scripture to support this position?

The only one I have heard is "Believe of the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" or others like unto this. :D

.
I am not trying to down religion, I am actually trying to understand it and possibly be more involved in it... but the attitude I received at the end of that discussion is doing more to turn me away than to bring me closer.

YES!! I understand that completely. It isn't the message... it is people who make it difficult

My appologies for those who make it difficult.

You have any more questions? :)
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Okay troll, I'll bite. What is the basic gospel message?

I would not be surprised if you already know the gospel message, but I don't think I feel like answering your question before addressing your misuse of the word...troll.

"Top definition

Trolling
The art of deliberately, cleverly, and secretly pissing people off, usually via the internet, using dialogue. Trolling does not mean just making rude remarks: Shouting swear words at someone doesn't count as trolling; it's just flaming, and isn't funny. Spam isn't trolling either; it pisses people off, but it's lame.

The most essential part of trolling is convincing your victim that either a) truly believe in what you are saying, no matter how outrageous, or b) give your victim malicious instructions, under the guise of help.
Trolling requires decieving; any trolling that doesn't involve decieving someone isn't trolling at all; it's just stupid. As such, your victim must not know that you are trolling; if he does, you are an unsuccesful troll.

Signs that your trolling is succesful:
*Your victim screaming in all-caps at you.
*Personal attacks (Calling you a retard, idiot, etc).
*Being an Internet Tough Guy.
*Making a crude remark, before quickly logging off before you can retort."

Urban Dictionary: Trolling
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I said I was not an expert on it at all, that it just did not make since to me and I am trying to understand the concept

Don't feel bad about not understanding the concept of the Trinity. Heck, I don't understand it and I was raised in a Baptist church, which is very much Trinitarian in its doctrine. Is Jesus the Son of God? That is pretty easy to back up with scripture. Is Jesus God the Son? That is a bit more difficult to back up. Is Jesus One being that is Father ,Son and Holy Spirit? That is a really hard one to back up. These are actual beliefs of certain Christian denominations on the nature of Christ and the Trinity, or lack of that have been debated for centuries. So don't feel bad for not understanding. As far as your friend who says you must accept the Trinity or be damned? I would find someone else to talk to.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am not trying to down religion, I am actually trying to understand it and possibly be more involved in it... but the attitude I received at the end of that discussion is doing more to turn me away than to bring me closer.
It really depends on who you are asking and talking to. Ironically, someone like yourself who is a seeker, may actually be further along in their maturity of spiritual questions than they are. In fact, I can tell you that from personal experience. The general rule of thumb is, if it isn't resonating with you somewhere, if you rubs you as off or wrong, then it's not a good fit for you. End of story.

Don't let them try to intimidate you, or try to sell you on their beliefs through systems of logic arguments and appeals to authority into buying their narrative structures that work for them in their stage of development. If they need God to be the angry daddy upstairs to keep them in line from being bad boys and girls, than that's where they are at. If they need to believe in the Bible as the literal word of God, brought to the word via some supernatural magic that bypasses any critical analysis, then that is where they are at. You aren't there.

You just have to remain open to yourself, and not give away the power you have to others in your quest to find deeper meaning for yourself. "God", in however you want to understand that, is far larger than any religious believers' ideas. Find with your heart whatever it is that speaks to you. Listen to others sincerely, but protect yourself from giving your pearls to the swine.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
getting told I'm doomed.....

I am not an expert on any of this, nor do I claim to be. I am reading the bible and I am simply trying to understand

I was having a conversation with a person who is a Christian. I am a seeker, a westerner and I am trying to understand the religions of my culture.

After the discussion got to the infallibility of the bible and the trinity. Once i threw the First Council of Nicaea that part of the discussion got ignored....

On to the Trinity; I was then accused of thinking I was an expert on the trinity while I was in the early stages of seeking God. I said I was not an expert on it at all, that it just did not make since to me and I am trying to understand the concept. It seemed that asking questions was equated to me thinking I'm an expert

His proof for the trinity ws based on the similarities between God and Jesus. I to have similarities to my father and even my Grand father, heck people even use to look at old picture of my grandfather as a boy and ask my mother how they got me in old clothes and made the picture look so old....and I am not my father or my grandfather.... I am part of them.... and I will admit I I would not call any of us Holy..... The result was not more discussion of explanation, it was... I need to accept the Trinity as truth or I am doomed to eternal damnation.....

This now has me thinking that Salvation is exclusive and that many on the planet have no chance of salvation if that is the case.... Jewish people, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoist, Shintoist, Pagans, etc.... none of them will be saved and all are doomed....like I apparently am because I do not understand the trinity and lack understanding as to how it can be possible.... I ask for explanation...I get told accept or else...

I am not trying to down religion, I am actually trying to understand it and possibly be more involved in it... but the attitude I received at the end of that discussion is doing more to turn me away than to bring me closer.
You Might not want to talk to Christians if you want to understand the Bible. Just saying. There are some dead Christians worth paying attention to but no theologians. Theology has nothing to do with much really except it's a great psychological tool. It's not taught as a psychological tool which makes it a fantastic psychological tool. Can be used extensively across all accedemic domains including and especially on psychology itself but it can be applied to scientific math narratives as well!.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You Might not want to talk to Christians if you want to understand the Bible. Just saying. There are some dead Christians worth paying attention to but no theologians.

WOW! Just saying, but you Might not want to paint such a broad brush. it makes you look a little looney.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
getting told I'm doomed.....

I am not an expert on any of this, nor do I claim to be. I am reading the bible and I am simply trying to understand

,,,,,,

I am not trying to down religion, I am actually trying to understand it and possibly be more involved in it... but the attitude I received at the end of that discussion is doing more to turn me away than to bring me closer.

Nobody understands the Trinity. Don't worry about it.

I mean, really....I not only don't understand it, I don't believe it (probably wouldn't if I DID understand it) and a whole bunch of Christians think I'm not only damned, I'm not even "Christian."

Who cares what they think? You go looking for truth, and when you find it, hang onto it and live by it. That's all any of us can, or should, do. I found it in a Christian belief system...definitely not Orthodox, orthodox, mainstream or Reformationist, but it works for me.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
You have to admit there are a lot of evil wicked people who seemingly live blessed lives
That is actually funny. Why? Because that is exactly what Psalms 73 says]
Psalm 73:3-9 3 For I became envious of the boasters, [When] I would see the very peace of wicked people. 4 For they have no deathly pangs; And their paunch is fat. 5 They are not even in the trouble of mortal man, And they are not plagued the same as other men. 6 Therefore haughtiness has served as a necklace to them; Violence envelops them as a garment. 7 Their eye has bulged from fatness; They have exceeded the imaginations of the heart. 8 They scoff and speak about what is bad; About defrauding they speak in an elevated style. 9 They have put their mouth in the very heavens, And their tongue itself walks about in the earth.

Psalm 73:12-14 12 Look! These are the wicked, who are at ease indefinitely. They have increased [their] means of maintenance. 13 Surely it is in vain that I have cleansed my heart And that I wash my hands in innocence itself. 14 And I came to be plagued all day long, And my correction is every morning.

But:
Psalm 73:18-19 18 Surely on slippery ground is where you place them. You have made them fall to ruins. 19 O how they have become an object of astonishment as in a moment! [How] they have reached their end, have been brought to their finish through sudden terrors!
While it isn't stated anywhere, my studies have shown why this is permitted, even caused.

God permits those who shall die eternally, be damned with eternal sleep, to have it extraordinarily good in this life - to a degree, depending on their sins. Then they die for all eternity, though, at the end, they also get punished for their sins.

The righteous on the other hand, God punishes as they sin. Permits them to suffer. This is to teach them various things, and when they enter Paradise, these reap their reward.
 
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