Looking for answers.....

[Grandliseur]

Have you died and gone to Heaven to find out?

I believe I said clearly that to me death is the return to non-existence. Thus there is no heaven or hell when dead. Our hope is the resurrection, recreation. This I will not speak on right now.

 

[Grandliseur]

People idol worship the words of the Bible. You do realizing the words talking about Jesus in the Bible are NOT a religion. The men talking about Jesus in the Bible are men. Jesus Christ was a great Jewish rabbi. He had some wonderful teachings. But people idolizing the words come off to me like fans of an NFL football team.

And when you read words you only understand something so well. The way you really understand a subject is by writing about it. If you really want to understand the Bible you have to write it out in your own words. But most people do not care to take the time to really learn what it is they supposedly believe. Instead, they prefer to be just told what to believe by some "authority". For you, you claim the Bible is your authority. For me I cannot accept the Bible as the word of God. I believe the Bible is words written by men who had certain bigotries and prejudices based on the historical context of their lives.

For example, I could go through a 100 lines of scripture pointing out why it is immoral to accept the Bibles teaching. But instead I will do just two for you to comment on:

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

The implication here is slavery is morally okay. In what Universe is owning another person morally okay? If you are typical Christian you will probably say nothing. Meaning the Bible is the word of God and if the Bible says slavery is okay then slaver is okay. But if you are man with any backbone at all you will state: "Yes, slavery is not morally okay." In all my countless conversations with Christians I have never heard one say slavery is immoral. Am I in league with Satan for thinking slavery is immoral? Am I possessed by Satan for thinking Peter 2:18 may be one the most evil and immoral sentiments I've ever read in my life? Would you be in league with Satan if you agreed with me?

So how can you say your religion, Christianity, is based on a God of love? Because in reality, it really seems like a God of hate, war, authoritarianism, oppression, sadism, masochism, and many other morally reprehensible ways of being based on the scriptures I've read in the Bible. Generally, I don't trust someone telling me what to think. The men who wrote the words in the Bible have no greater moral authority than I do. I would rather trust my own inner moral compass than goat herders from 2000 years ago who did not read a single book in their lives.

Here's another example: “So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)

Masters, slaves, rape, concubines, donkeys! Oh my! Do you think it was very Christian of the master to put the concubine outside so she could be raped? Answer this one question otherwise there really is no point in us having any conversation at all. I only like to talk to people who have some shred of human decency and morality.

If our accepted authority differs so shall our views. Nothing can bridge the gap.

 

[dfnj]

The righteous on the other hand, God punishes as they sin. Permits them to suffer. This is to teach them various things, and when they enter Paradise, these reap their reward.

Why wouldn't an omnipotent allow everyone to reap their reward regardless of their sins? God is omnipotent so it doesn't matter to God. And everyone else experience eternal heavenly bliss is too busy experiencing bliss to care about anyone else. So why would an omnipotent God of unconditional love allow everyone through the gates of Heaven to experience eternal heavenly bliss regardless of our earthly sins or how we practiced our religion? You could argue God not allowing everyone to experience Bliss would be a lesser loving God.

 

[dfnj]

I believe I said clearly that to me death is the return to non-existence. Thus there is no heaven or hell when dead. Our hope is the resurrection, recreation. This I will not speak on right now.

I did not ask you what you believed. I ask you how do you know? Are you award this is choice you are making to believe what you believe? Why do you believe what you believe just out of curiosity.

 

[David T]

WOW! Just saying, but you Might not want to paint such a broad brush. it makes you look a little looney.

Wow a religion with 30,000 denominations. Not loony?

 

[Kenny]

Wow a religion with 30,000 denominations. Not loony?

Canned response IMO

I fellowship with a BUNCH of different denominations and it is basically a difference in name only.

So, since they represent the vast majority of Christians.... "looney"

 

[Windwalker]

I fellowship with a BUNCH of different denominations and it is basically a difference in name only.

What about those you choose not to fellowship with? Is that a difference in name only? What about those who deny the Trinity? Do consider them part of the Christian family? What about those Christians who believe everyone is saved, regardless of whether they convert from their religions of birth to Christianity?

Are these differences in name only, or are they fundamental differences that makes you set yourselves apart from the rest of the religious world, worldwide? Is your Christianity inclusive, or exclusive? Will there be Buddhists and Hindus in heaven with you, never having sworn fealty to the image of the divine you hold to?

 

[David T]

Canned response IMO

I fellowship with a BUNCH of different denominations and it is basically a difference in name only.

So, since they represent the vast majority of Christians.... "looney"

what that theology is a crock? My daughter has downs syndrome please get a clue you have a clueless childish understanding of the text.. Hildegard von Debingen said" we cannot live in an interpreted world, for an interpreted world is not home". 13th century btw. The statement is actually heresy and yet she is a doctor of the Catholic Church, and a Saint. The heresy is impossible comprehend for the self labeled"higher functioning" part of the brain because it's dysfunctional in general it loves itself. The evidence is in the self labeling. That itself is a dysfunctional label.
Btw I actually have a degree in theology. Jesus is not dysfunctional I refuse to go along with believing jesus is dysfunctional at all!! I know you believe he is but he isn't. Smaaaaart right handed people are wierd.

 

[Kenny]

What about those you choose not to fellowship with? Is that a difference in name only?

WHOAAA there horsey. You have too many predsupositions, assumptions and error in the above statement starting with and not excluding the word "choose".

What about those who deny the Trinity? Do consider them part of the Christian family?

Is Jesus their Lord? Then yes!

What about those Christians who believe everyone is saved, regardless of whether they convert from their religions of birth to Christianity?

Can you please name that denomination?

Are these differences in name only, or are they fundamental differences that makes you set yourselves apart from the rest of the religious world, worldwide? Is your Christianity inclusive, or exclusive? Will there be Buddhists and Hindus in heaven with you, never having sworn fealty to the image of the divine you hold to?

Now, that is moving the goal post... I thought we were talking about Christian denominations... did I hit a sore spot?

 

[Windwalker]

WHOAAA there horsey. You have too many predsupositions, assumptions and error in the above statement starting with and not excluding the word "choose".

I am usually quite deliberate in my word choices. Choice is the word I chose with reason.

Is Jesus their Lord? Then yes!

Ok, you're a universalist then? You consider everything that goes under the name Christian, from Southern Baptist, to Anglican, to the Quiverfull cult, to the Snake Handlers, to Catholics, to Westboro Baptists as those you would sup and fellowship with under the same umbrella of love?

Can you please name that denomination?

Not one denomination, but many of the more progressive flavors of Christianity, such as Universalists, those like Spong, those like the Jesus Seminar folks, and a host of others that deviate from the more narrowly focused evangelical flavors of the religion which view others than themselves as outside of the faith.

Now, that is moving the goal post... I thought we were talking about Christian denominations... did I hit a sore spot?

Only in that there are Christians who embrace all religions and not theirs exclusively. Would you consider yourself in fellowship with them, or are they "in error" and outside of that which you consider acceptable? Have I hit your sore spot?

 

[Kenny]

I am usually quite deliberate in my word choices. Choice is the word I chose with reason.

However wrong your choice was.

Ok, you're a universalist then?

defined: a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved

Which doesn't match what I said. Another wrong choice?

You consider everything that goes under the name Christian, from Southern Baptist, to Anglican, to the Quiverfull cult, to the Snake Handlers, to Catholics, to Westboro Baptists as those you would sup and fellowship with under the same umbrella of love?

Jesus ate with the sinners so why would I make an exception?

Not one denomination, but many of the more progressive flavors of Christianity, such as Universalists, those like Spong, those like the Jesus Seminar folks, and a host of others that deviate from the more narrowly focused evangelical flavors of the religion which view others than themselves as outside of the faith.

So, you want me to be God and decide the eternity of people? Another wrong choice?

Only in that there are Christians who embrace all religions and not theirs exclusively. Would you consider yourself in fellowship with them, or are they "in error" and outside of that which you consider acceptable? Have I hit your sore spot?

LOL... I could also stand in a garage and shout "I am a car".

But, as far as you are concerned....



Jesus loves you and I do too!

 

[Windwalker]

Jesus ate with the sinners so why would I make an exception?

Say what you will, I knew you didn't accept other Christians who don't think as you as "in-fellowship". You just said this here, comparing other Christians outside your theological bubble, as "sinners" that you would fellowship with the way Jesus did the "outsiders" of his day? Are they the shun-worthy you're showing your grace to by talking with them? You view them as such? Might not you be considered as "lost" by them too?

So, you want me to be God and decide the eternity of people? Another wrong choice?

Oh, but you do have an opinion you appear to be avoiding taking responsibility for, saying things like this. Just state your mind honestly. But don't forget you just compared you fellowshipping with these other Christians as like Jesus have supper with "sinners". You view them that way, don't you?

 

[Kenny]

Say what you will, I knew you didn't accept other Christians who don't think as you as "in-fellowship". You just said this here, comparing other Christians outside your theological bubble, as "sinners" that you would fellowship with the way Jesus did the "outsiders" of his day? Are they the shun-worthy you're showing your grace to by talking with them? You view them as such? Might not you be considered as "lost" by them too?


Oh, but you do have an opinion you appear to be avoiding taking responsibility for, saying things like this. Just state your mind honestly. But don't forget you just compared you fellowshipping with these other Christians as like Jesus have supper with "sinners". You view them that way, don't you?

You are too funny. You interpret what you read they way yu want t read it.

 

[Windwalker]

You are too funny. You interpret what you read they way yu want t read it.

Why did you compare them to the "sinners" who Jesus supped with? Rather than dancing your dance, just speak plainly. That question doesn't go away through theatrics.

 

[Kenny]

Why did you compare them to the "sinners" who Jesus supped with? Rather than dancing your dance, just speak plainly. That question doesn't go away through theatrics.

Let me walk you through a differing way of reading:

If I can eat and fellowship with sinners, why can't I eat with those who believe Jesus as Lord?

Now... if you just want to read it and interpret things the way you want to read.. have at it. I have pretty much enough of you putting words in my mouth.

 

[Windwalker]

Let me walk you through a differing way of reading:

If I can eat and fellowship with sinners, why can't I eat with those who believe Jesus as Lord?

Now... if you just want to read it and interpret things the way you want to read.. have at it. I have pretty much enough of you putting words in my mouth.

Sensitive aren't you? Not much on the patience front?

 

[Kenny]

Sensitive aren't you? Not much on the patience front?

A rose is still a rose no matter what you want to call it.