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Featured Looking for answers.....

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Wu Wei, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. Wu Wei

    Wu Wei ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson

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    getting told I'm doomed.....

    I am not an expert on any of this, nor do I claim to be. I am reading the bible and I am simply trying to understand

    I was having a conversation with a person who is a Christian. I am a seeker, a westerner and I am trying to understand the religions of my culture.

    After the discussion got to the infallibility of the bible and the trinity. Once i threw the First Council of Nicaea that part of the discussion got ignored....

    On to the Trinity; I was then accused of thinking I was an expert on the trinity while I was in the early stages of seeking God. I said I was not an expert on it at all, that it just did not make since to me and I am trying to understand the concept. It seemed that asking questions was equated to me thinking I'm an expert

    His proof for the trinity ws based on the similarities between God and Jesus. I to have similarities to my father and even my Grand father, heck people even use to look at old picture of my grandfather as a boy and ask my mother how they got me in old clothes and made the picture look so old....and I am not my father or my grandfather.... I am part of them.... and I will admit I I would not call any of us Holy..... The result was not more discussion of explanation, it was... I need to accept the Trinity as truth or I am doomed to eternal damnation.....

    This now has me thinking that Salvation is exclusive and that many on the planet have no chance of salvation if that is the case.... Jewish people, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoist, Shintoist, Pagans, etc.... none of them will be saved and all are doomed....like I apparently am because I do not understand the trinity and lack understanding as to how it can be possible.... I ask for explanation...I get told accept or else...

    I am not trying to down religion, I am actually trying to understand it and possibly be more involved in it... but the attitude I received at the end of that discussion is doing more to turn me away than to bring me closer.
     
    #1 Wu Wei, Jan 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
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  2. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    There is no reason why you must understand a concept formulated at
    Nicaea.

    God is a communion of love, of relatedness. That God not only loves, but he is love. The New Testament in 1 John chapter 4
    states God is love. If the Trinity is incomprehensible, the love that defines the Trinity is incomprehensible. Its not a love that seeks fulfillment in the one loved, not a friendship love. A love that demands no response, no return. A love that is Self Gift, freely given whether or not it is accepted, a
    love that is absolute, unconditional.
     
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  3. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Ignorant Atheist Libertarian Capitalist
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    No need for concern.
    According to Revoltifarianism, you have the
    same fate awaiting you as Revoltifarians.
     
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  4. Stanyon

    Stanyon Chairman of the Bored

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    If you are doomed you might as well embrace and enjoy it
     
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  5. Curious George

    Curious George Well-Known Member

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    The trinity was a concept that was created when our mode of thinking was different. At that time the things were believed to be composed of their physical parts and also their abstract parts. Because God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all in part divine essence, they are one. They all share this attribute. They are different however because they serve a different roles. So while the same they are also different. If you wanted to use yourself as example imagine yourself at 10 years old, yourself at 30 years old and yourself at 80 years old. They are all still you because they have the attribute of you-ness that makes you yourself. But they are at the same time very different.

    Now this obviously is not a perfect analogy because the church doesn't even understand the trinity. But just realize that in order to wrap your head around ancient philosophies, modern thinking can be a hindrance. Not only have we learned new facts, but we have changed the way in which we think about facts.
     
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  6. socharlie

    socharlie Active Member

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    do not waste your time on Trinity , no one truly understands the concept and it is not needed in your spiritual life, better understand issue or archons.
     
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  7. idav

    idav Being
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    I find the idea fascinating that only trinitarians can know the mechanics of how avatars (god incarnations) work. It’s also kind of hilarious to suggest one would be doomed if we don’t understand said mechanics correctly. Christians certainly are not exclusive on the idea of god coming to earth in human form.
     
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  8. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    Regarding the trinity, I recognize it as THE Christian koan.
     
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  9. Fool

    Fool ALL in ALL
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    i read the bible multiple times not to become christian but to try and understand the ideas in the book and have the ability to discuss the book with christians. the book doesn't actually advocate christianity. its a book about parables, metaphors, poems, opinions, and allegories on love as a catalyst of mind.
     
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  10. PureX

    PureX Well-Known Member

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    My suggestion would be to read a book like, "The Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell, first, before you try interpreting religious biblical texts. It's important to understand the use of symbol, parable, allegory, and metaphor in such religious/spiritual texts.

    Also, I would suggest that you start with the goal of finding your own interpretation of these texts, and of the ideals you think they are presenting, rather than presuming that you must accept someone else's. Other people can help you to see what you might not have seen on your own. but that does not mean that you are obliged to accept anyone else's interpretations.
     
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  11. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity simple man
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    Jewish God
    Wu Wei, you should look at worldcat.org and find this book in a library:
    The Jewish Approach to God: A Brief Introduction for Christians written by Rabbi Neil Gillman. Look at the first section called *God is Echad*. You do not need to read the whole book. This will get you ready to understand where Christianity begins with God and why God is a mysterious word. It will help to provide a root to attach all the verbs about God to. I recommend a quasi historical approach for you to understand what the Trinity is for and is about.
    Early Christians
    From the beginning Christianity attempts to gather glory from the world, from everywhere. It also tries to hug the whole world, both to love it and be it. Its on a mission to gather and to preserve and replicate all that is good. There are some similarities with the Buddhist approach, but part of the theory is that God is everywhere so lets study God, love God and so forth. God is in you, in me, in the stars, in this and that and over there. This God being everywhere is referred to tersely as omnipresence, but in many circles 'Omnipresence' does not now carry the kind of seeking attitude. People say "God is everywhere," but they don't look everywhere for God. There is definitely a change, so of course this is confusing in modern times.
    Trinity
    Christianity begins with this mystery called 'God' which has many descriptions that appear to be in tension, and it begins with a belief that the glory of God is everywhere and that nature is good and a good place to seek God. It sets out to gather up all of the light of God in the world, so it begins to gather everything good it can find from all cultures everywhere. Its going to try to gather and concentrate it all and redistribute that light everywhere, sort of mix it all together. Its mission is analogous to a library. It gathers from India, from the British Isles and from nearby Greece but not just information: culture, glory, anything that seems divine. It incorporates their festivals and ideas. It gets its fingers into many pies. One of the pies is Greek Philosophy including Plato. Despite the fact that Plato is very un-Jewish and probably very weird to Christians the Christians examine his philosophical thought to extract the glory, like taking the juice from an orange. They become Platonians to some degree, just like they become Celts and Hindus and whatever else they find glory shining from. Christians also observe other trinities from around the world. Thus they attempt to study and to concentrate all of that into use for the church, and from this extraction process is derived the Trinity: a tool to think about God with.
    Transition
    That's early history though. In later centuries, say towards 3rd and 4th century this whole seeking thing goes away I think. I think there is a change from seeking to speaking. Now the Trinity goes into use as a political tool. Now it is no longer acceptable for different people to disagree about things. As a result creeds develop, and so we have a very ironclad 'Trinity' that must be explained in a very set and inflexible way. Gone also is the mystery of God that Christians begin with. There's no longer 'Echad', no tension in the word God anymore -- except among mystics and certain people. Among the uneducated 'God' is something that your priest says to you. At the same time Christianity is forgotten in many parts of the world, and Europe begins its centuries long slide into the dirt, becoming a feudal warring system.

    You know who is very knowledgeable about the middle ages in Europe is lewisnotmiller. I think he knows the centuries and names of kings and all of that. If you want to discuss that he loves it. Anything about crusades or popes and whatnot, he's on top of it like a knot on a log. To me its a bit boring. Everything is.

    If you are into philosophy and understand its terminology you may enjoy this book which explains a lot of the philosophical meanderings of the churches:
    Greek Orthodox Patrology: An Introduction to the Study of the Church Fathers by Professor Panagiotes K. Chrestou You can probably find this on worldcat.org, too. I haven't read it, but I own it and refer to it sometimes. It explains the development of the philosophy of the Trinity, the time periods and so forth. It does not explain what I have just explained about the church's early mission or the Jewish concept of God. -- which, by the way, you would not have heard from anyone else anywhere ever, so you're welcome buddy.
     
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  12. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    IMO, make up your own s... stuff. That's what most folks do. Either that or they've they've been smooth talked by some religious ideolog into accepting stuff they made up.

    Keep studying, with enough faith, your subconscious mind will create a narrative for you. Then you can go forth with all of the certainty of any other Christian.

    You have to be willing to "suspend belief" though. The subconscious mind isn't very logical. If you question the narrative it only leads to doubt. Doubt leads to fear, fear is the path to the dark side…fear leads to anger…anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering. :eek:
     
    #12 Nakosis, Jan 12, 2018
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  13. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    I'd examine the etymology of the word trinity itself.

    Excerpt from Wiktionary.....

    ****
    But when the moon rose and the breeze awakened, and the sedges stirred, and the cat's-paws raced across the moonlit ponds, and the far surf off Wonder Head intoned the hymn of the four winds, the trinity, earth and sky and water, became one thunderous symphony—a harmony of sound and colour silvered to a monochrome by the moon.

    ******
     
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  14. Jumi

    Jumi Secular monotheist

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    Trinitarianism was contested, but later enforced. There are actually multiple types of trinitarians, but basically it's not a useful way of thinking to approach God by these divisions.
     
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  15. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    You're only doomed if you accept the authority of the person you were speaking to. Know that Christianity has a large variety of sects and denominations each with their own contradictory beliefs. Find another one, and they'll tell you that this first guy is a heretic.
     
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  16. Wu Wei

    Wu Wei ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson

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    Thanks all...

    I have read some of the books suggested already, not all, but some.... I Will look for them
    I am looking for my own interpretation and not taking the interpretation of someone just because they told me to... I get in lots of trouble that way sometimes, but it comes with the territory if one is a grumpy old bear.
    I also do not believe in the infallibility of the bible for the vary reason it was reorganized by powerful religious folk more than once...see the First Council of Nicaea...that, by the way was the part of the discussion that got completely ignored after I brought up Nicaea and we then went straight to I'm doomed for not being a Trinitarian.

    As a child I did attend A Protestant Sunday school, it is what parents did for their children in the early to mid 60s
    I also spent some time in a Catholic Church because, at one time, I was in love with, and engaged to a woman who was a Catholic. And I will admit I enjoyed the church we went to, but that had a lot to do with the honesty, frankness, humor and understanding of the head priest; Father John
    And I was at one time associated with the Presbyterian church, whose minister, during a discussion, I did literally have him look at his watch and say "Is that the time" and run away from me as fast as he could. I still liked the guy, I just didn't go to the church again.

    I tend to look at religions as mostly the same ,and the major argument between them is all semantics....

    But yet I know more about Buddhism and Taoism (and I lean towards Philosophical Taoism) than I know about Western Religions...about 5 years ago, when my father passed away, there were things that occurred that I simply could not pass off as coincidence...this is why I am still looking...and why I have not dismissed anything completely....
     
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  17. sun rise

    sun rise "Love pour forth from the heart of the universe."
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    That's a song I really like. Sometimes songs get to the heart of the matter without a lot of theological sturm and drang. "Music from the heart speaks to the heart." Another of my favorites is Runrig's "Running to the Light"
    Those who stride too far too soon
    Will not hold pace
    Only the calm
    Will win the race
    Through the forest, the sea of mountain pine
    Surrender everything

    Only those who
    Greatness see in little things
    Worthy are the simple
    They're happy in their ways
    Self will wither out of sight


     
  18. sun rise

    sun rise "Love pour forth from the heart of the universe."
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    Fanatics and literalists are to me far from the heart of religion. There are also those who are so focused on small issues and political power that they "render unto Caesar" their religion.

    Knowing the history of scripture is helpful but can also get in the way. My attitude is that scriptures contain the Truth, often expressed symbolically, but are not the literal Truth. So when I read something in a piece of scripture, my attitude is not whether or not something literally happened but whether or not there's a spiritual message that is relevant to me.

    Part of your problem is that there are so many different views about a religion. Take Christianity. Some say that the Jesus is the only way. Others say that the Christ is the same as the Avatar and rank Jesus as one with Buddha, Krishna and so forth with the teaching having different emphases depending on the needs of people in varying times and places with the message always being at the heart one and the same.
     
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  19. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    I think you would be more engaged with a more liberal and inclusive understanding of religions. I think some of your counter-thoughts show why conservative and fundamentalist understandings have fallen way to modern logic in the minds of many modern people. But even after that, many of us still believe there is 'something more' out there.
     
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  20. sun rise

    sun rise "Love pour forth from the heart of the universe."
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