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Koran:...Jesus is the Son...
- Thread starter Apple Pie
- Start date
Greetings Truth,
Thanks for the continued effort in your replies
As it is, your example from 112.3 has both verbs in the imperfect tense (incomplete action).
Thus, what you stated is not entirely correct.
Sura 112 never denies that allah had a Son in the past.
Thus, 4.171 has even more credibility
4.171 makes the claim that allah has a Spirit (same as the Holy Bible).
This, then, would make allah a plural entity
It cancels the negative that occurs in 21.25
المقربونis the word that occurs in 4.172
This is not the word allah
The word is THREE .not Trinity
Thanks for the continued effort in your replies
The Truth said:Hi there dear Apple
Yes of course, in the arabic text God didn't say in this chapter which by the way is equal to 1/3 of the Quran because if you were an arab you would know the miracle here. There are 2 ways in here to say it:
1- If God said i don't have a son in this miraclous verse so the reader might think that God MAY had a son (God forbid) in the past.
2- If God said i didn't have a son so again the reader might think that God MAY have a son in the future.
Therefore, God said that he He begetteth not, nor is He begotten.
لم يلد ولم يولد
This is the miracle of Quran. You just have to know arabic well to understand what i'm talking about in here.
As it is, your example from 112.3 has both verbs in the imperfect tense (incomplete action).
Thus, what you stated is not entirely correct.
Sura 112 never denies that allah had a Son in the past.
Thus, 4.171 has even more credibility
4.171 makes the claim that allah has a Spirit (same as the Holy Bible).
This, then, would make allah a plural entity
It cancels the negative that occurs in 21.25
.
المقربونis the word that occurs in 4.172
This is not the word allah
Fact of the matter is .there is no classic Arabic word Trinity.
The word is THREE .not Trinity
Nehustan
Well-Known Member
You are without doubt the strangest chap I have ever come across...
لَّن يَسْتَنكِفَ الْمَسِيحُ أَن يَكُونَ عَبْداً لِّلّهِ وَلاَ الْمَلآئِكَةُ الْمُقَرَّبُونَ وَمَن يَسْتَنكِفْ عَنْ عِبَادَتِهِ وَيَسْتَكْبِرْ فَسَيَحْشُرُهُمْ إِلَيهِ جَمِيعًا
Here (highlighted in Green) is the contruct 'Lilillah' which means
"To Allah"
لِّلّهِ
the whole contruct is 'Li +Allah' but due to the vowels it becomes 'Lilillah'
ألمدرسة
'The School'
'The School'
becomes
للمدرسة
'To the School'
'To the School'
You will notice the difference in this two constructs is due to the many 'lams' in the 'Lililla' both 'lams' carry shadda'
and your translation of
الْمُقَرَّبُونَ
as the word that you say means 'Allah', well frankly I'm lost for words (not the first time in this thread!!!)
Nehustan
Well-Known Member
نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَأَنزَلَ التَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ
Here 'The Quran' (the Recital) is referred to as a book. I am taking that you mean that initially 'The Quran' was not a book, but recited by Hafiz.
The translation is rendered....
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). (3:3)
Apple Pie said:
You are most welcome dear Apple Pie.
Enlighten me, how is that?
Use your dictionary and refernces to translate the arabic word لم يلد(He begetteth not).
O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him .... (4:171)
Allah said Jesus is his word and a spirit from him not his own spirit. وَرُوحٌ مِنْهُ
How does that make Allah a plural sir?
You are contradicting yourself in here. It canceled the word before it (the way you translated it and using your own refernces as i explained for you before) but not the verse before and if you have any proof for what you say so i'll be so gratful if you can produce one not just to claim without any back up.
Allah is describing in this verse that Jesus and the angels "nearest to him"(المقربون) would not refuse to worship Allah as brother Nehustan described in his posts.
Firstly, the english copy of the Quran is not equal to the pure original arabic one but it just translate it and describe because it's the work of human beings but not the excact word of God.
Secondly, arabs used to just refer to things not to mention it directly as long as they are talking about it as in that verse because if you kept repeating so that would prove your arabic is weak or that you are not sure of what your are talking about so you are keeping repeating what you mean.
The verse is clear and in arabic there is no such a thing called trinity the way you want it and it's obvious because it's a different language and the verse is so clear and i have no idea what's your point in here.
"يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لا تَغْلُوا فِيدِينِكُمْ وَلا تَقُولُوا عَلَى اللَّهِ إِلا الْحَقَّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَىابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌمِنْهُ فَآمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِوَلا تَقُولُوا ثَلاثَةٌانْتَهُوا خَيْرًا لَكُمْ إِنَّمَا اللَّهُ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌسُبْحَانَهُ أَنْيَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَكَفَىبِاللَّهِ وكيلاً"
It's so clear, don't say three but Allah is one.
Allah decribed for us who was Jesus in many places in the Quran to show people who have doubt the same as you the clear signs of Allah and i hope that Allah will guide you to see his clear signs.
First of all he said:
The similitude of 'Isa before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be": and he was. (3:59)
If Jesus has no mother so Adam is even has a greater sign because he has no father and no mother and even though God said they are just the same because he created them the same way with the word "Be" so he was كن فيكون
Secondly, we have another sign in here.
Al-Masih, the son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His Signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (5:75)
Here in this verse Allah is telling us somthing obvious, a common sense, how a man walk on earth and eat like other human beings and after he eats he go to the toilet, how could you worship a weak needy human being who might die without food. He was no more than a messenger, and many were the Messengers that passed away before him.
That's why God said: See how Allah doth make His Signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
So, in the next verses God is saying:
Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah, He it is that heareth and knoweth all things." (5:76)
Say: "O People of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by, who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even Way. (5:77)
Thirdly, Allah told us that Jesus is one of his servant and he can destroy him and all human beings if he wants.
In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Al-Masih the son of Maryam. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His Will were to destroy Al-Masih the son of Maryam, his mother, and all, everyone that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things." (5:17)
Finally, dear Apple, listen to Allah when he said:
[88] They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
[89] Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! (19:88-89)
I hope that you will go through this post and you may change your mind dear Apple.
Nehustan said:
Thanks for your reply
I agree that للهmeans to allah .or belonging to allah.
This, however, does not detract from the deity attributes as described in 4.172 & 4.173, from pertaining to Jesus the Messiah
Lets look
مقربون= muqarraboona
muqarraboona definition:
Accusative case/ passive perfect, masculine plural. One who is made or permitted to approach, who is brought nigh. Those who are nearest (to God). It comes from the root qariba, which means it, and he, was, or became, near; or is in place; to be near to, approach, offer, be near in relationship or rank, be at hand, draw near. Nearness, respect of place; i.e. vicinity; nearness in respect of time. Near the middle. To make a night journey.
المقربون= al + muqarraboona = almuqarraboona = the ones permitted to approach
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2504 - 2509
The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 449 - 450
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 117
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 151
Occurrences of almuqarraboona in the Koran: 4
Locations: 4.172, 56.11, 83.21, 83.28
Observe the Koranic usages
· 56.11 those are the ones permitted to approach (in heaven)
· 83.21 He bears witness to the ones permitted to approach
· 83.28 a fountain for the ones permitted to approach
Interestingly, all Koranic usages of the word almuqarraboona specifically refer to the ones entering heaven.
Further, look at the astounding context of 83.21
- 83.19 And what informed you of Paradise?
- 83.20 A written and sealed Revelation
- 83.21 He bears witness to the ones permitted to approach
Sound familiar ?
Sealed Revelation?!
This material emanates from the Biblical Book of Revelation in which the Lamb (i.e. Jesus) bears witness as He opens the Seven seals.
Just as Jesus, The Messiah, is called a witness in 4.171 we are told that He also bears witness in 83.21.
There seems to be some confusion regarding terminologyNehustan said:
We know, from the Classic definition, that alqur-ana originally meant the collection.
It was only after this, that the Koran took on a more liberal meaning which modern Muslims adhere to.
So, what is the collection that the Koran claims to be?
Lets review the word Koran without the definite article
قُرْآنَ is so called because it has collected the histories of the prophets, and commands and prohibitions, and promises and threats, and the verses or signs, and the chapters.
Again, we see the gathering of prophetic verses, signs, chapters.
This is a vital clue to what the collection contains .verses and chapters are from Books.
So does the Koran mention book or books within its pages ? Of course.
It mentions it an astounding 151 times.
The Koran uses the word kitabi.
Lets review the classic definition for this word
كِتَابِ = kitabi
kitabi definition:
Singular. A thing in which, or on which, one writes; (a book); a written piece of paper or (a record or register; and a written mandate) of skin; a writing, or writ, or thing written. Applied also to the revelation from above; and to a letter, or epistle, which a person writes and sends. A revealed scripture. Written revelation. Book; decree; ordinance, law; write; prescribed; prescribed period; record; letter; term; scripture; teachings; knowledge reverted to a prophet; recorder. Divine prescript, appointment, or ordinance; judgment or sentence; fatal decree, or predestination. It comes from the root kataba, which means to write, note, record, prescribe, ordain, destine, decree, transcribe, command, inscribe.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2589 - 2591
The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 478 - 479
Adding the definite article
الْكِتَابِ = al + kitabi = alkitabi
And reviewing the classic definition
الْكِتَابِ = alkitabi
alkitabi definition:
Lane references sura 2:2 in his definition:
ذَلِكَ الْكِتَبُ لَا رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ
Thalika alkitabu la rayba feehi hudan lilmuttaqeena
That The Book no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) guidance to the fearing and obeying. (2:2)
That is the book, or scripture; as though combining in itself the excellences of all other books or scriptures; or meaning that is preeminently the book, or scripture. The Pentateuch or Mosaic Law; and the Gospel, or Book of the Gospels; the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Divine prescript, appointment, or ordinance; judgment, or sentence; fatal decree or predestination.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, p. 74; volume seven, p. 2590
Thus it is quite clear, even at this point, and even without performing any scriptural comparison(s) whatsoever, that the collection that comprises the Koran, is basically the Jewish and Christian scriptures.
This is beyond any reasonable doubt.
Furthermore, lets review some Koranic passages that will shed even more clarity on what it claims to be
الَرَ تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْكِتَابِ وَقُرْآنٍ مُّبِينٍ
Alif-lam-ra tilka ayatu alkitabi waqur-anin mubeenin
15.1 A L R, that is The Book's inseparable message, and (a) distinct/clear Koran.
Here we have the astounding statement (from the Koranic authors) that the Jewish and Christian scriptures alkitabi are inseparable ayatu from the Koran.
Compare to this ayah
طس تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْقُرْآنِ وَكِتَابٍ مُّبِينٍ
Ta-seen tilka ayatu alqur-ani wakitabin mubeenin
27.1 T S, that is the Koran's inseparable message, and (a) distinct/clear Book.
In order to re-emphasize that the Koran is no more than a collection of Jewish and Christian scriptures, the Koranic authors transposed the order of the same juxtaposed words; this time around claiming that the Koran is inseparable from the alkitabi.
(Cont)...
And look at this example
وَمَا كَانَ هَـذَا الْقُرْآنُ أَن يُفْتَرَى مِن دُونِ اللّهِ وَلَـكِن تَصْدِيقَ الَّذِي بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَتَفْصِيلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ مِن رَّبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
Wama kana hatha alqur-anu an yuftara min dooni Allahi walakin tasdeeqa allathee bayna yadayhi watafseela alkitabi la rayba feehi min rabbi alAAalameena
10.37 And this the Koran was/is not that it be fabricated from (by) other than allah, and but confirmation (of) what (is) between his hands, and detailing/explaining The Book, no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) from The Lord of the jinn, or genii, and of mankind.
The Koran details/explains the Jewish and Christian scriptures ..?
Thus .I think that we now have a much better understanding of what the Koran, itself, actually claims to be
Regarding the Yusuf Ali translation of 3.3:
Does not look like this ayah is discussing the Koran at all
Thanks
And look at this example
وَمَا كَانَ هَـذَا الْقُرْآنُ أَن يُفْتَرَى مِن دُونِ اللّهِ وَلَـكِن تَصْدِيقَ الَّذِي بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَتَفْصِيلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ مِن رَّبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
Wama kana hatha alqur-anu an yuftara min dooni Allahi walakin tasdeeqa allathee bayna yadayhi watafseela alkitabi la rayba feehi min rabbi alAAalameena
10.37 And this the Koran was/is not that it be fabricated from (by) other than allah, and but confirmation (of) what (is) between his hands, and detailing/explaining The Book, no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) from The Lord of the jinn, or genii, and of mankind.
The Koran details/explains the Jewish and Christian scriptures ..?
Thus .I think that we now have a much better understanding of what the Koran, itself, actually claims to be
Regarding the Yusuf Ali translation of 3.3:
- What Arabic word is translated (step by step)?
- What Arabic word is translated (of judgment between right and wrong)?
Does not look like this ayah is discussing the Koran at all
Thanks
Nehustan
Well-Known Member
Quran, comes from the Arabic meaning reading, recital, recitation. The first word said by Gabriel to Muhammad which upon completion was the first revealed surah was from this root 'Iqra'. This command was thus 'Read' (Recite) and thus the Quran is so called. You obviously do not believe that the angels (whatever they may be) inspired Muhammad or that Gabriel relayed the 'Recital' to Muhammad. Something about inventing a lie springs to mind, and Allah is just.
Apple Pie said:
Observe the Koranic usages…
· 56.11…These will be those Nearest to Allah:
· 83.21…To which bear witness those Nearest (to Allah).
· 83.28… A spring, from (the waters) whereof drink those Nearest to Allah.
· 83.21…To which bear witness those Nearest (to Allah).
· 83.28… A spring, from (the waters) whereof drink those Nearest to Allah.
Interestingly, all Koranic usages of the word “almuqarraboona” differ from a verse to another according the meaning of the verse and this is the miracle of Quran.
Further, look at the astounding context of 83.21…
- 83.19…And what will explain to thee what Illiyin is?
- 83.20…(There is) a Register (fully) inscribed
- 83.21…To which bear witness those Nearest (to Allah).
Sound familiar…?
Of course not, because we can't use our own translations and fabricatations ignoring the arabic original text or the authorised translations which all scholars agree about.
Just as Jesus, The Messiah, is called a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him in verse 4.171…and on the other hand, we are told that those Nearest (to Allah) bears witness in 83.21.
Apple Pie said:
Your refernce please !!! , because Quran is not what you call it.
Thanks
The Truth said:
Hi Truth,
You can verify the references that I have provided, as truth...
Instead of just changing my post to fit your paradigm...
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/images/professional/misc/quotes/quot-top-left.gifQuote:http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/images/professional/misc/quotes/quot-top-right.gifhttp://www.religiousforums.com/forum/images/professional/misc/quotes/quot-by-left.gifOriginally Posted by Apple Piehttp://www.religiousforums.com/forum/images/professional/misc/quotes/quot-by-right.gifhttp://www.religiousforums.com/forum/images/professional/misc/quotes/quot-top-right-10.gifقُرْآنَ is so called because it has collected the histories of the prophets, and commands and prohibitions, and promises and threats, and the verses or signs, and the chapters. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/images/professional/misc/quotes/quot-bot-left.gifhttp://www.religiousforums.com/forum/images/professional/misc/quotes/quot-bot-right.gif
Your refernce please !!! , because Quran is not what you call it.
Thanks
Sure thing...
الْقُرْآنَ= alqur-ana
alqur-ana definition:
Originally meaning the Collection; I collected together the thing or I read, or recited, the book or scripture; and then conventionally applied to signify the Book of God that was revealed to Mohammad; it also signifies the revelation, meaning that which is termed the mighty, or imitable which is read, or recited, and written in books or volumes. A name for the Book of God, like the book of the Law revealed to Moses and the Gospel.
قُرْآنَis so called because it has collected the histories of the prophets, and commands and prohibitions, and promises and threats, and the verses or signs, and the chapters
It comes from the root qaraa, which has the primary signification he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion. He read, or recited, the scripture chanting; he read or recited anything in any manner, without, or from, or in a book.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2502 - 2504
The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 448 - 449
Thanks...
Ali Ansari
Member
well Apple pie I read your topic and very good replies given by my Muslim brothers. I only want to ask you a question that you are try to prove that jesus is God, son of god ,and you are trying to prove trinity form Quran which you can never prove even from your own bible. I was only laughing on your Misquotations, misinterpretations and mistranslations.
I want to ask you that do you believe in Quran as a word of God?
if No then why you are trying to prove those things, for what?
if yes then why don't you accept the truth. of Quran & Islam?
I want to ask you that do you believe in Quran as a word of God?
if No then why you are trying to prove those things, for what?
if yes then why don't you accept the truth. of Quran & Islam?
The Truth said:
Hi Truth,
Thanks for your replies
As stated previously, both verbs used in 112.3 (i.e. يلد & يولد), are each in the imperfect tense.
This clearly is referring to incomplete action.
It is not referring to completed action.
This statement is only telling us that there will be no more children (i.e. Sons) of allah, from here on out.
Sura 112 never once denies that allah had a Son in the past.
And
Sure enough, 4.171 confirms that he did indeed have a Son.
The possessive pronoun hu makes it his own spirit.
Observe that it was not created.
Further, you have already acknowledged that allah consists of a Word .and now we are told of a Spirit also and finally, that he has a Son .three elements of the one allah
This can only refer to a uni-plural entity.
Ali Ansari said:
Greetings Ali Ansari...
Thanks for adding your comments.
As you can see for yourself; the Koran amply demonstrates its Biblical origins.
If you feel that you can contribute some knowledge to the better understanding of this material, then please join us...
Do I believe that the koran is the word of God? No, I do not.
The Word of God was written in Biblical Hebrew & Greek.
The Koran, as stated by its authors, merely is a collection of re-translated Biblical material that has been re-arranged in order to make it rhyme.
One does not do this to the Original Word of God.
God's true Word is contained in the Holy Bible.
The intent of this post is to demonstrate just how the Koran copied the Holy Bible....and how that material has been almost completely lost in the islamic interpretation...
Thanks...
Apple Pie said:
[16]Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur-an) to make haste therewith.
[17] It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:
[18] But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated): (Surah 75)
Here two words can't be the same so جمعه means collect and وقرآنه means to promulgate it and spread it.
Apple Pie said:
You have a problem in here which is, to take the arabic word from Quran and use the dictionary of this rich language "arabic" taking any meaning you like instead of reading the authorised version which muslims acknowledge so i thought you may not see except your font so i used it.
Nehustan
Well-Known Member
Apple Pie said:
It's inherent in the semitic languages (i.e. Hebrew, Amharic, Amaraic, Arabic), most words, even those that contain more than three letters derive from a three lettered root. Thus the word Quran, and the word Iqra share the root which at first glance would be QRA, tho of course the rules are very sublime, and as I am not an Arab speaker I make no apologies for not being able to give you a lesson in Arabic, tho I'm not sure it would make any difference even if I had degrees in Arabic coming out of my ears.
As to Quranic reference, well given that you believe the book to be a cut and past job from the bible, what validity would it have anyway. You have already proposed its nothing more than a case of plagiarism from previous books, you have no respect for it, as you have cleary illustrated by your editing which verges on non-linear (sorry for my audio-video editing analogy). So why should we waste the Quran on you, as you seem to use it to validate your arguments, then rubbish it in the next breath, and that my 'friend' is not only non-linear thought (for sure thinking outside the box is sometimes good), but in your instance plainly without logic.
Nehustan said:
Hi Nehustan,
Thanks for your comments...
Who ever stated that the Koran was plagiarized, except yourself...?
The authors who penned it, quite clearly state that they merely copied and collected the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures. They give ample and full credit to the Holy Bible...
Thanks...