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Koran:...Jesus is the Son...

Apple Pie

Active Member
يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابنمريم رسول الله وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله ورسله ولا تقولواثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في السموت ومافي الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا

Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan


4.171 You The Book's family, certainly do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and certainly they say against “allah” except the truth , only the Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, a message ; “allah” and his word cast forth to her Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe on account of “allah”, and His messengers, and certainly they say: "Three." Refrain (it is) agreeable certainly your only “allah”one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his child, truly his; what not in the heavens and not in the earth and He sufficed on account of “allah”, a witness.


All,

Is there a cognizant Muslim out there that can please explain how it is that 4.171 plainly states that Jesus is the Son….?


Further, how is it that 4.171 proclaims all the elements of the Biblical Trinity…

  • Father
  • Son
  • Spirit
Thanks…
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Wrong translation.

This is the translation of verse (4:171):

"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender." (4:171)
 

Apple Pie

Active Member
Cordoba said:
Wrong translation.

This is the translation of verse (4:171):

"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender." (4:171)

Please show us the Arabic words that mean "Far is it removed from his trasncendent majesty that he should have a son"...

Good luck...
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
1.png
[171] O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs


Line 7 of the Arabic text

http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispTargam.asp?nType=1&nSeg=0&l=eng&nSora=4&nAya=171&t=eng

All the best.
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
I have been reading the Arabic and the English. (I am not qualifed to make tafsir (interpretation of Quranic Arabic )). I can see what you are saying when you translate...

أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ (he has a son)
as 'he has a son'. An Arab speaker, and one versed in Islamic knowledge would connect...

سُبْحَانَهُ (praise be to him!)
to the statement following it, which is where the 'translation of the meaning' derives (as the brother's have posted). For a Muslim given that Allah is extoled in the preceeding parts of the Sura (Chapter), to then say he has a son is in clear contradiction to the stated concept of Tawheed (Unity) that preceeds it. However you are not a monotheist obviously, and thus you will choose to ignore the tomes written on the concept of Tahweed, translating the four arabic words, out of context, and as if they appeared in say a newspaper. I have read the Arabic in context, and the English translation of the meaning, and actually think that the way it is rendered in English is unsatisfactory. In the fact that you can bring up such a ridiculous translation of which the implication is present in the Arabic, it shows that immediate attention must be given to these verses of the Quran to avoid potential fitnah. I have thought about this hard and long, and I have decided that the phrase is a rhetorical question, asking a question to which the answer has been given immediately prior to the said rhetorical question. Quranic Arabic does not possess a question mark, and thus one could easily miss this structure. However the preceeding words are completely within the context of Tawheed, and the only way I can literally translate these four Arabic words is as a rhetorical question. Let me give you a mundane use of the four Arabic word in question, hopefully with a little humour thrown in....

Two men are sitting at a cafe drinking tea, and the subject of an aquaintance arises. One is saying that the aquaintance had a child by women 'X', he is sure that the child is that of the man, the aquaintance. The other man at the cafe reasons with him, telling him a.) the man is sterile as a result of an illness and b.) he was not present in the town at the time of conception, he was working away in another country, so says to the first man the subject isn't even open to debate, it is on two counts impossible, as the discussed man COULD NOT have been the father to the child. Having provided the evidence as to why it was impossible, he uses the rhetorical device 'so....you still think he has a son?' or as the Quranic Arabic has it 'he has a son?'

Thus another translation of the Arabic (if you choose to translate it solely as say the Arabic of a newspaper, which Muslims would not.) could be...

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: He has a son? To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.


Of course Allah knows best.
 

Apple Pie

Active Member
Nehustan said:
I have been reading the Arabic and the English. (I am not qualifed to make tafsir (interpretation of Quranic Arabic )). I can see what you are saying when you translate...

أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ (he has a son)
as 'he has a son'. An Arab speaker, and one versed in Islamic knowledge would connect...

سُبْحَانَهُ (praise be to him!)
to the statement following it, which is where the 'translation of the meaning' derives (as the brother's have posted). For a Muslim given that Allah is extoled in the preceeding parts of the Sura (Chapter), to then say he has a son is in clear contradiction to the stated concept of Tawheed (Unity) that preceeds it. However you are not a monotheist obviously, and thus you will choose to ignore the tomes written on the concept of Tahweed, translating the four arabic words, out of context, and as if they appeared in say a newspaper. I have read the Arabic in context, and the English translation of the meaning, and actually think that the way it is rendered in English is unsatisfactory. In the fact that you can bring up such a ridiculous translation of which the implication is present in the Arabic, it shows that immediate attention must be given to these verses of the Quran to avoid potential fitnah. I have thought about this hard and long, and I have decided that the phrase is a rhetorical question, asking a question to which the answer has been given immediately prior to the said rhetorical question. Quranic Arabic does not possess a question mark, and thus one could easily miss this structure. However the preceeding words are completely within the context of Tawheed, and the only way I can literally translate these four Arabic words is as a rhetorical question. Let me give you a mundane use of the four Arabic word in question, hopefully with a little humour thrown in....

Two men are sitting at a cafe drinking tea, and the subject of an aquaintance arises. One is saying that the aquaintance had a child by women 'X', he is sure that the child is that of the man, the aquaintance. The other man at the cafe reasons with him, telling him a.) the man is sterile as a result of an illness and b.) he was not present in the town at the time of conception, he was working away in another country, so says to the first man the subject isn't even open to debate, it is on two counts impossible, as the discussed man COULD NOT have been the father to the child. Having provided the evidence as to why it was impossible, he uses the rhetorical device 'so....you still think he has a son?' or as the Quranic Arabic has it 'he has a son?'

Thus another translation of the Arabic (if you choose to translate it solely as say the Arabic of a newspaper, which Muslims would not.) could be...

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: He has a son? To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.


Of course Allah knows best.


Indeed, I appreciate the time and thought that you put forth in your reply.

However, you seem to be overlooking the obvious…

The singular, masculine pronoun “hu” is juxtaposed on each side of “waladun”.

There can be absolutely no doubt that it refers to your “allah” being in possession of a son…

Observe…


ه= “hu”

“hu” definition:

An indeclinable affixed personal or possessive pronoun of third person singular masculine; when affixed to a verb or preposition as a person pronoun, it means him or it; and when to a noun as a possessive, his or it. Singular personal or possessive pronoun. Him. Verbal suffix which expresses the accusative.

References:
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 100
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 152




له= “la” + “hu” = “lahu” = certainly him


Further….look at the context of 4.171…as it describes the Son Jesus as having the attributes of God Almighty…

• 4.172…goes on to describe that that Jesus will gather them to Himself….as described in the holy Bible…only God has this power…

• 4.173…informs us that to Jesus they believed and did the righteous deeds. Jesus pays in full their rewards – from His Grace. He torments the unbelievers. ….as described in the holy Bible…only God has this power…

• 4.174...Jesus came as convincing proof from the Lord, as a clear and evident Light…as described in the Holy Bible….only God has this power…Jesus is the Light...



The evidence is overwhelmingly Biblical…


 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
I have to take you as being serious, tho' I am sure you are just attempting to purposefully mistranslate as you obviously have some knowledge of Arabic....you are taking parts of different sentences, and putting them together for instance....the Arabic reads.....

سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ
لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ
وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً

Thus when you take.... the 'lahu waladun' from the first sentence, and add the 'lahu' from the second sentence, you are infact creating an emphasis that is not present in any normal reading of the Arabic. What you have presented is...​

لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ
which for the reasons above is not a correct rendering of the Arabic. The second 'lahu', with the affixed 3rd person male singular pronoun refers to the following 'sentence'...​

لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ

To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth​


It does not refer back to the line I have given as the rhetorical question. I was prepared to break that sentence, leaving out 'Subhanahu' سُبْحَانَهُ (glory be to him), stating that for a Muslim this exhaltation frames the next part of the sentence أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ which is clearly predicated by سُبْحَانَهُ, in fact by the whole Quran generally (never mind 1400 years of Arab speakers and their Islamic sciences) and the rest of this ayat specifically.​


I'm not sure why you have chosen to bring this up with us, as we will obviously see straight through this ludicrous assertation, I'd say it was an honest mistake, but you do appear to have some grasp of Arabic, so one must presume it was intentional.​


You then go on to propose that in ayat 4:172 it says that Jesus will gather people to himself. It does not....It does refer to the Messiah, the Angels, and those closest to Allah. It then goes on to say that in reference to those too proud to serve Allah, as opposed to say the messiah, angels, and those closest (i.e. other prophets and believers), ''He' will gather them to himself'. This then is gathered to the presence of Allah, not Jesus, the messiah.​

The Messiah disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, nor those nearest. Those who disdain His worship and are arrogant, He will gather them all together unto Himself. (4:172)


You then go on to the next ayat, using the premise that the He in these ayat refers to Jesus, however contextually, and in fact from the text the 'He' relates to Allah, again it is predicated by the quoted text, and/or the whole of the Quran and Islamic writing/thought....​

But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their rewards, and more, out of His bounty: But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous penalty; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them. (4:173)

Finally you quote another ayat...this as with the first ayat is 'addressed', i.e. it bears a specific group of people as its (the ayat's) recipient. With 4:171 the people it was directed to where the people of the book, presumably in this instance the 'Christians' as it then goes on to dispute Trinity. Here the address is to a new and wider group, but does in fact refer back to the knowledge just covered, it says 'O People/Mankind'...​

O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light manifest. (4:174)

Here the Quran is the light which is manifest, this light is not the light to the children of Israel, which would be Jesus and his living gospel, tho' indeed Jesus was a light to his people (even one may add a light to the gentiles), as one might argue is suggested in 24:35-36. This light is a light to all mankind, this light is the Quran, tho' of course it may be invisible to the blind, or hard to understand if one cannot, or indeed chooses not to be able to, read.​
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
Perhaps if you are in a mood for 'artistic' translation of the Quran you might like to try this sura, it's very short and is often said to be equal to a third of the Quran. Thus if you mistranslate it, you might feel some joy that you have mistranslated the meanings of a third of the Quran. If however you do not, you might like to consider its meaning in light of your translation of the other parts of the Quran and your 'artsistic' rendering of the meanings....

Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem​

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only, Allah, the Eternal, Absolute. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten, and there is none like unto Him.​

Sura Ikhlas (the Purity/Sincerity of Faith) - 112​
 

Peace

Quran & Sunnah
Nehustan said:
Perhaps if you are in a mood for 'artistic' translation of the Quran you might like to try this sura, it's very short and is often said to be equal to a third of the Quran. Thus if you mistranslate it, you might feel some joy that you have mistranslated the meanings of a third of the Quran. If however you do not, you might like to consider its meaning in light of your translation of the other parts of the Quran and your 'artsistic' rendering of the meanings....

Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem​

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only, Allah, the Eternal, Absolute. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten, and there is none like unto Him.​


Sura Ikhlas (the Purity/Sincerity of Faith) - 112​
Great posts brother, jazakallah khairan!!!
SubhanAllah I was reading this thread and at the same time listening to the Quran Surat Ar-Rahman and once I read the last line of your post, it coincided with the last verse in that surah which says:
تبارك اسم ربك ذي الجلال و الإكرام

Blessed be Your Lord, full of majesty and beneficence

 

Apple Pie

Active Member
Nehustan said:
I have to take you as being serious, tho' I am sure you are just attempting to purposefully mistranslate as you obviously have some knowledge of Arabic....you are taking parts of different sentences, and putting them together for instance....the Arabic reads.....




Thus when you take.... the 'lahu waladun' from the first sentence, and add the 'lahu' from the second sentence, you are infact creating an emphasis that is not present in any normal reading of the Arabic. What you have presented is...​


which for the reasons above is not a correct rendering of the Arabic. The second 'lahu', with the affixed 3rd person male singular pronoun refers to the following 'sentence'...​



To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth​


It does not refer back to the line I have given as the rhetorical question. I was prepared to break that sentence, leaving out 'Subhanahu' سُبْحَانَهُ (glory be to him), stating that for a Muslim this exhaltation frames the next part of the sentence أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ which is clearly predicated by سُبْحَانَهُ, in fact by the whole Quran generally (never mind 1400 years of Arab speakers and their Islamic sciences) and the rest of this ayat specifically.​


I'm not sure why you have chosen to bring this up with us, as we will obviously see straight through this ludicrous assertation, I'd say it was an honest mistake, but you do appear to have some grasp of Arabic, so one must presume it was intentional.​

Thanks again for taking the time to reply…


A couple of things:
  • The original classic Arabic of the Koran was written as a continuous stream of characters and words. There were no sentences. No ayahs. These were artificially inserted into the text long after it was originally penned. Thus, there is no reason to make the second “lahu” as the beginning of a new sentence – a new thought, as it were. Grammatically, it is still connected to “waladun”.
  • Secondly, there is no rhetorical question being asked. If there was, then we would expect for there to be an “alif” أَpreceeding the so-called question. There is none.
You then go on to propose that in ayat 4:172 it says that Jesus will gather people to himself. It does not....It does refer to the Messiah, the Angels, and those closest to Allah. It then goes on to say that in reference to those too proud to serve Allah, as opposed to say the messiah, angels, and those closest (i.e. other prophets and believers), ''He' will gather them to himself'. This then is gathered to the presence of Allah, not Jesus, the messiah.

The Messiah disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, nor those nearest. Those who disdain His worship and are arrogant, He will gather them all together unto Himself. (4:172)

4.172 begins by discussing the Messiah, and ends by discussing the Messiah.





You then go on to the next ayat, using the premise that the He in these ayat refers to Jesus, however contextually, and in fact from the text the 'He' relates to Allah, again it is predicated by the quoted text, and/or the whole of the Quran and Islamic writing/thought....



But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their rewards, and more, out of His bounty: But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous penalty; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them. (4:173)

Finally you quote another ayat...this as with the first ayat is 'addressed', i.e. it bears a specific group of people as its (the ayat's) recipient. With 4:171 the people it was directed to where the people of the book, presumably in this instance the 'Christians' as it then goes on to dispute Trinity. Here the address is to a new and wider group, but does in fact refer back to the knowledge just covered, it says 'O People/Mankind'...

Can you please explain the sequence markers “fa” for us…?


Also please show us the word “Trinity”….thanks…








O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light manifest. (4:174)

Here the Quran is the light which is manifest, this light is not the light to the children of Israel, which would be Jesus and his living gospel, tho' indeed Jesus was a light to his people (even one may add a light to the gentiles), as one might argue is suggested in 24:35-36. This light is a light to all mankind, this light is the Quran, tho' of course it may be invisible to the blind, or hard to understand if one cannot, or indeed chooses not to be able to, read.


The “Light” spoken of in 4.174 cannot be the Koran.

It must be referring to Jesus.

Simple exegesis of the term demonstrates why…

نورا= “nooran”

“nooran” definition:

Singular Noun. Light; whatever it be; or the rays thereof. That which manifests things, and shows to the eyes their true or real state. He made to give light; to shine; or to shine brightly. One of the names of “allah”. It comes from the root “nara” (nun-waw-ra), which means to emit fire or light, shine, sparkle, irritate, vex or provoke war, create heat. A tree and a plant blossomed, or flowered. It (seed produce) attained to maturity.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 2864 - 2866
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 582 - 583
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 152
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, pp. 200 - 201


Occurrences of “nooran” in the Koran: 9
Locations: 4.174, 6.91, 6.122, 10.5, 24.40, 42.52, 57.13, 57.28, 71.16

Observe the Koranic usages…
  • 10.5…“allah” made moon light
  • 6.91…Moses is a Light
  • 6.122…He was dead, resurrected, He is the Light
  • 24.40… “allah” directs Light
  • 42.52…Spirit is the Light
  • 57.13…seek for Light
  • 57.28…fear “allah” & obey his messenger (Jesus); He is the Light…

  • 71.16…“allah” made moon light
Thus…once again, we can see for ourselves that the “Light” cannot possibly refer to the Koran.

It must refer to Jesus…
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
You have covered much in this post (but also missed just as much), I unfortunately have to prepare for a palaoanthropology exam on Friday and can't waste the time on this (astagfir Allah) silliness at the moment, but when I feel I have the time to disect your post I will.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi dear Apple Pie, i saw the responses to your questions by my brother Nehustan and i noticed that he answered you will but after this post and because my brother Nehustan is busy so i gonna answer you and he might add somthing after he come again.

First of all, read with me this verse please.

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
[1] Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

[2] Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

[3] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

[4] And there is none like unto Him.

So, it's so clear that God has no son because he begetteth not, nor is he begotten.

Apple Pie said:
  • The original classic Arabic of the Koran was written as a continuous stream of characters and words. There were no sentences. No ayahs. These were artificially inserted into the text long after it was originally penned. Thus, there is no reason to make the second “lahu” as the beginning of a new sentence – a new thought, as it were. Grammatically, it is still connected to “waladun”.
The Quran, unlike the other scriptures is an oral revelation in the first place before being a book. Then, when the companions of prophet Mohammed after his death collected what they have memorized in a book because the people who were memorizing it were dying in battles, they wrote in in away that any arabic man can identify it but because islam spread to many none arabic countries so they made some signs to show the way to pronounce some words, to explain for people the way to read it but for us, muslims, we don't depend in the book itself and if we made a test which is to throw all religious scriptures to the sea so no one will be able to remember and retreive all what they were studying in their scriptures except muslims because millions of people around the world memorize it fully, all of it. Sorry to say that grammatically all what you were explaining about "lahu" is not accurate and any arabic man "even non-muslim" would reject it directly by nature if he knows arabic well. Impossible to read it the way you are trying to explain it.

Read with me this verse please as an example similar to that verse you are discussing in here.

[26] And they say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour. (Quran 21:25)

It's almost the same but the word "سبحانه" in here came after "waladan" but in the pervious verse you are discussing "sobhanah سبحانه" came after.

Can you see it clearly now?

Anyway, to claim that the verse is: "yakoon lahu waladon lahu" is impossible to read in arabic and sorry to say that it's even laughable to read it in this way and ask any arabic man about it if you are not an arab as it seems from the way you want to proof it. Actually, it's baseless.
  • Secondly, there is no rhetorical question being asked. If there was, then we would expect for there to be an “alif”
    أَpreceeding the so-called question. There is none.
I have no idea what you mean here, would you please where is the word or the verse you mean in here?

4.172 begins by discussing the Messiah, and ends by discussing the Messiah.

Your proof ??? I don't see how it ends by the Messiah. Explain for me please.

Can you please explain the sequence markers “fa” for us…?

What's that? sorry to came late in the discussion but can you explain for me which verse you mean and what you are trying to proof in here?

Also please show us the word “Trinity”….thanks…

Do you mean this verse:

[171] O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (Quran 4:171)

The “Light” spoken of in 4.174 cannot be the Koran.
It must be referring to Jesus.

You seems so sure about it even you didn't bring any evidence for that.(i.e., opinion in Tafseer)

Anyway, You can see "noora" or "nooran" in these verses as well:

[15] O People of the Book! there hath come to you Our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book. (Quran 5:15)

As you can see, the book "Quran" is a light and a perspicuous book.

Again even a further proof read with me this verse:

[157] "Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) - in the Law and the Gospel - for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); he releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him, it is they who will prosper." (Surah 7)

The light which is sent down with him is not the Massiah as you know but the Quran.

And here also:

[8] Believe, therefore, in Allah and His Messenger, and in the Light which We have sent down. And Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do. (Surah 64)

light = Quran.

and here:

Prophet Mohammed can be a light as well ONLY by the will of God because as he can guide us with the light "Quran" he guided us with another light as well "Mohammed".

[45] O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness, a Bearer of Glad Tidings, and a Warner,

[46] And as one who invites to Allah's (Grace) by His leave, and as a Lamp spreading Light. (Quran Surah 33)

What about this verse?

[1] Alif Lam Ra. A Book which We have revealed unto thee, in order that thou mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light - by the leave of their Lord - to the Way of (Him) the Exalted in Power, Worthy of all Praise! (Surah 14)

Therefore, Quran is a light as we saw before and it's a way also to lead mankind out of darkness into light as we saw in this verse.

As Allah sent Mohammed with Quran and the signs so he sent before him Moses with the signs of God as well to bring his people out of darkness into light.

[5] We sent Musa with Our Signs (and the command). "Bring out thy people from the depths of darkness into light, and teach them to remember the Days of Allah." Verily in this there are Signs for such as are firmly patient and constant, grateful and appreciative. (Surah 14)

As the Quran was a light so of course the scriptures before it was a light as well because you might ask about that ..

[46] And in their footsteps We sent 'Isa the son of Maryam, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

Gospel = light.

You can find in the saying of prophet Mohammed as well:

Sorry i couldn't find any translator for hadiths at the moment because i have the arabic one and i will try to translate it for you directly ...

Abu horyara heaed prophet Mohammed saying: "Who so ever listen to a verse of Allah's book, so it will be recoreded for him a double reward, and who ever recite it so it will be a light for him in the hereafter".

I think it's clear as the light of the sun now. :)
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Continue ...

10.5…“allah” made moon light

Correct.


6.91…Moses is a Light



Not Moses but the Torah:


[91] No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)": say: "Who then sent down the Book which Musa brought? a light and guidance to man: but ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not, neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.


6.122…He was dead, resurrected, He is the Light

He is not the light but Allah GAVE him a light:


[122] Can he who was dead, to whom We gave life, and a Light whereby he can walk amongst men, be like him who is in the depths of darkness, from which he can never come out? Thus to those without Faith their own deeds seem pleasing.


24.40… “allah” directs Light


Allah is the only one who gives light and no one can be a light or can produce a light without his guidance and permission.


[40] Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! For any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!


42.52…Spirit is the Light

Nope, the book is the light.

[52] And thus have We, by Our command, sent inspiration to thee: thou knewest not (before) what was Revelation, and what was Faith: but We have made the (Qur-an) a Light, wherewith We guide such of Our servants as We will; and verily thou dost guide (men) to the Straight Way;

57.13…seek for Light

Yes.

57.28…fear “allah” & obey his messenger (Jesus); He is the Light…

[28] O ye that believe! Fear Allah, and believe in His Messenger, and He will bestow on you a double portion of His Mercy: He will provide for you a Light by which ye shall walk (straight in your path), and He will forgive you (your past); for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful:

Jesus is not the light in this verse but God will give them the light inside their heart if they believed Allah's messenger and also it means light in the judgment day as the verse you mentioned before which is 57:13 where the hypocrites try to seek a light from the believers.

In the judgment day everything is different than this life and the light will be a result of believing, so if anyone believe in God and all his messengers so God will provide him with light in the judgment day so he doesn't fall in hell fire.


[13] One Day will the Hypocrites - men and women - say to the Believers: "Wait for us! let us borrow (a light) from your Light!" it will be said: "Turn ye back to your rear! then seek a light (where ye can)!" so a wall will be put up between them, with a gate therein. Within it will be Mercy throughout, and without it, all alongside, will be (Wrath and) Punishment!

71.16…“allah” made moon light


Yep.

Thus…once again, we can see for ourselves that the “Light” cannot possibly refer to the Koran.
It must refer to Jesus…

Are you still so sure about it?


Peace ... :)
 

Apple Pie

Active Member
The Truth said:
Hi dear Apple Pie, i saw the responses to your questions by my brother Nehustan and i noticed that he answered you will but after this post and because my brother Nehustan is busy so i gonna answer you and he might add somthing after he come again.

First of all, read with me this verse please.

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
[1] Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

[2] Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

[3] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

[4] And there is none like unto Him.

So, it's so clear that God has no son because he begetteth not, nor is he begotten.

Greetings truth,

Sura 112 states nothing regarding whether or not “allah” had a son.

The word “son” nor “child” appears in the Arabic.

Further, 4.171 states quite clearly that it is a “Spirit” from him through which Mary “conceives” Jesus…..NOT “allah”…




Sorry to say that grammatically all what you were explaining about "lahu" is not accurate and any arabic man "even non-muslim" would reject it directly by nature if he knows arabic well. Impossible to read it the way you are trying to explain it.

Could you give us a lexical or grammatical reference to support your position…thanks…




Read with me this verse please as an example similar to that verse you are discussing in here.

[26] And they say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour. (Quran 21:25)

It's almost the same but the word "
سبحانه" in here came after "waladan" but in the pervious verse you are discussing "sobhanah سبحانه" came after.

Can you see it clearly now?

Your example was taken out of context.

Observe the key term here…



بل= “Bal”

“Bal” definition:

A particle of digression; it denotes emendation, wherever it occurs, in the case of negation or an affirmation; or it is a word of emendation, and denoting digression from that which precedes. When it is followed by a proposition, the meaning of the digression is either the canceling of what precedes, as in:

وقالوا اتخذ الرحمن ولدا سبحنه بل عباد مكرمون

Waqaloo ittakhatha alrrahmanu waladan subhanahu bal AAibadun mukramoona

21.26 And they said: "The Compassionate he has taken a child glory be to Him”, on the contrary worshipers are honored ones."

or

It is also used as confirmation, then it must be followed by a clause in the affirmative, no matter if the question which it follows is the negative or affirmative. It can be rendered as” But, on the contrary, besides; much more; no; nay; rather.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 242 - 245
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 62


21.26 is canceling the negative that occurs in 21.25…






Anyway, to claim that the verse is: "yakoon lahu waladon lahu" is impossible to read in arabic and sorry to say that it's even laughable to read it in this way and ask any arabic man about it if you are not an arab as it seems from the way you want to proof it. Actually, it's baseless.


Whoever stated that this was the entire ayah…?

This is just one small section of it.


4.172 begins by discussing the Messiah, and ends by discussing the Messiah.




Your proof ??? I don't see how it ends by the Messiah. Explain for me please.


“Allah” is never once mentioned in this ayah.

Only the Messiah (Jesus) is mentioned directly by name.

Further, we know that it pertains to Him due to the usages of “wa” and “fa”…




Quote:

Can you please explain the sequence markers “fa” for us…?

What's that? sorry to came late in the discussion but can you explain for me which verse you mean and what you are trying to proof in here?


“fa” is a sequence marker indicating cause and effect.

4.172 & 4.173 are simply loaded with these markers.

Further, they are all used AFTER the Messiah is mentioned….!

It can only refer to attributes assigned to Him.
 

Apple Pie

Active Member
(Continued)


Quote:


Also please show us the word “Trinity”….thanks…







Do you mean this verse:

[171] O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (Quran 4:171)
Yes…

Please show us the Arabic word “trinity”…



Quote:

The “Light” spoken of in 4.174 cannot be the Koran.


Quote:



It must be referring to Jesus.






You seems so sure about it even you didn't bring any evidence for that.(i.e., opinion in Tafseer)

Anyway, You can see "noora" or "nooran" in these verses as well:

[15] O People of the Book! there hath come to you Our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book. (Quran 5:15)

As you can see, the book "Quran" is a light and a perspicuous book.

First of all, these are two different words.

Secondly, “alkitabi” does not refer to the Koran.

It refers only to the scriptures of the Jews & Christians…
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
Do you know I have finished my exams now, and I find that I can't be bothered going through your posts in detail. I'm trying to work out where you are coming from (are you Assyrian perchance?), but actually carry on, you may indeed get people reading the Quran, and surely Allah guides whom he will.
 

Peace

Quran & Sunnah
The Truth said:
Continue ...



Correct.





Not Moses but the Torah:


[91] No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)": say: "Who then sent down the Book which Musa brought? a light and guidance to man: but ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not, neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.




He is not the light but Allah GAVE him a light:


[122] Can he who was dead, to whom We gave life, and a Light whereby he can walk amongst men, be like him who is in the depths of darkness, from which he can never come out? Thus to those without Faith their own deeds seem pleasing.





Allah is the only one who gives light and no one can be a light or can produce a light without his guidance and permission.


[40] Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! For any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!




Nope, the book is the light.

[52] And thus have We, by Our command, sent inspiration to thee: thou knewest not (before) what was Revelation, and what was Faith: but We have made the (Qur-an) a Light, wherewith We guide such of Our servants as We will; and verily thou dost guide (men) to the Straight Way;



Yes.



[28] O ye that believe! Fear Allah, and believe in His Messenger, and He will bestow on you a double portion of His Mercy: He will provide for you a Light by which ye shall walk (straight in your path), and He will forgive you (your past); for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful:

Jesus is not the light in this verse but God will give them the light inside their heart if they believed Allah's messenger and also it means light in the judgment day as the verse you mentioned before which is 57:13 where the hypocrites try to seek a light from the believers.

In the judgment day everything is different than this life and the light will be a result of believing, so if anyone believe in God and all his messengers so God will provide him with light in the judgment day so he doesn't fall in hell fire.


[13] One Day will the Hypocrites - men and women - say to the Believers: "Wait for us! let us borrow (a light) from your Light!" it will be said: "Turn ye back to your rear! then seek a light (where ye can)!" so a wall will be put up between them, with a gate therein. Within it will be Mercy throughout, and without it, all alongside, will be (Wrath and) Punishment!




Yep.



Are you still so sure about it?


Peace ... :)


JazakAllah khayran brother!!!:clap
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Apple Pie said:
Greetings truth,

Sura 112 states nothing regarding whether or not “allah” had a son.

The word “son” nor “child” appears in the Arabic.

Hi there dear Apple :)

Yes of course, in the arabic text God didn't say in this chapter which by the way is equal to 1/3 of the Quran because if you were an arab you would know the miracle here. There are 2 ways in here to say it:

1- If God said i don't have a son in this miraclous verse so the reader might think that God MAY had a son (God forbid) in the past.
2- If God said i didn't have a son so again the reader might think that God MAY have a son in the future.

Therefore, God said that he He begetteth not, nor is He begotten.

لم يلد ولم يولد

This is the miracle of Quran. You just have to know arabic well to understand what i'm talking about in here.

Also, Quran's miracle was in it's language "arabic", and God challenge them to produce a verse like it or even to find an error but definitely they couldn't nor any human being can till judgment day. They were arabs at that time around prophet Mohammed and they were in need to find any error to argue and they aware of the language more than us in this time because we study arabic but they didn't study it but they know it by nature, that's why they didn't argue somthing obvious like what you are discussing in here about this chapter.


Further, 4.171 states quite clearly that it is a “Spirit” from him through which Mary “conceives” Jesus…..NOT “allah”…

What are you talking about? :confused:


Could you give us a lexical or grammatical reference to support your position…thanks…

Sorry, i don't have a time to spend hours lookiong for grammer websites because i don't need one. Arabic is my first language and the thing you are doing is just twisting the meaning to appear for the non-arabic readers as somthing accurate but it's not. You are using refernces just to translate the words you are using ignoring the context of Quran and the way it appears there.



Your example was taken out of context.
When it is followed by a proposition, the meaning of the digression is either the canceling of what precedes, as in:

وقالوا اتخذ الرحمن ولدا سبحنه بل عباد مكرمون


You said it yourself, it's canceling the words before it so عباد مكرمون is canceling اتخذ الرحمن ولدا.

Your point?


Whoever stated that this was the entire ayah…?
This is just one small section of it.

I know, just bring a paper and write down what you are trying to prove in here and give it to an arabic man to read it for you and tell me if he can do it. :rolleyes:




“Allah” is never once mentioned in this ayah.
Only the Messiah (Jesus) is mentioned directly by name.


Al-Masih disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant, He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer). (4:172)

Are you sure my friend?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Apple Pie said:
Please show us the Arabic word “trinity”…


I don't think that you are not aware of the trinity.

Anyway, you can find the definition of the trinity in here:

http://www.answers.com/trinity&r=67


First of all, these are two different words.
Secondly, “alkitabi” does not refer to the Koran.

It refers only to the scriptures of the Jews & Christians…

Firstly, noor: is the noune. نور
noora: without "tanween" نورا
nooran:" with "tanween" نوراً
nooraan: 2 lights. نوران

Secondly, it called "alkitab" but not "alkitabi" because when you mention the word book alone without the word after it so you must say "alkitab" but when you mention it along with the word after it so at this moment you can say "alkitabi ....".

Got my point?

Anyway, i just wan t to drive your attention to my long post which proved that the light mean many things like Quran, Gospel and Torah but i guess you forgot to read them or somthing.

Peace .. :)
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nehustan said:
Do you know I have finished my exams now, and I find that I can't be bothered going through your posts in detail. I'm trying to work out where you are coming from (are you Assyrian perchance?), but actually carry on, you may indeed get people reading the Quran, and surely Allah guides whom he will.

This thread made me read some parts in Quran and specfic topics in it and i learned alot through my searching so i should thank him for this thread :)
 
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