Koran:...Jesus is the Son...

[Alan Young]

What I do know is humans that are educated are tempted by evil sugestions more than most and they will try to control others in anyway possible that is why you should not idolise anything but god and what he created "life" not anyone human or object... So these others that may have been missleaded in anyway should not feal anger they should search for there oun truth but don't be miss leaded keep an open mind to peace and understanding...

 

[Alan Young]

I am not talking or challanging anyone direct just voicing my opinion...

 

[Muffled]

oh I see......

Well all I did was show you the verse in full, and it clearly showing Jesus clarifying his position. He is not God because he was talking to God. He is not a god because he told God he had no right to inform people of something he wasn't. As far as divinity, well I'll leave that up to people like you to assume such. But I stand firm that EVERYTHING Jesus did was by Allah's permission.

Jesus has clarified His position in the Bible that He is God and you will find the evidence for that in the thread "Is Jesus God in the flesh?"

Now you come along and claim that you have an interpretation that makes Jesus a liar. I prefer to believe that you just don't understand what is being said in the Qu'ran and that it is your interpretation that is incorrect.

 

[kadzbiz]

You guys are amazing. I commend you all on your efforts to prove your points. I think I can even speak Arabic now. Peace be with you.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Jesus has clarified His position in the Bible that He is God and you will find the evidence for that in the thread "Is Jesus God in the flesh?"

Where? Please give me the link or list the appropriate evidence where Jesus himself says he is God.

Now you come along and claim that you have an interpretation that makes Jesus a liar. I prefer to believe that you just don't understand what is being said in the Qu'ran and that it is your interpretation that is incorrect.

there are christians who will disagree so who's opinion is correct based on evidence from the bible.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Jesus has clarified His position in the Bible that He is God and you will find the evidence for that in the thread "Is Jesus God in the flesh?"

He never did that. Where did he do such a thing?
Now find me the proof where "He" said he was God......:sarcastic

Here's what he said.....

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me.

Joh 14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word
which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent
me, and to accomplish his work.

Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me.



Lu 22:42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me;
nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."

Joh 5:30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment
is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the
Father who sent Me.


Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord,
but he sent me.

Mr 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.


Mt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, but My Father only.


Joh 7:16 So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who
sent me;

Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the
kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.


Mr 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone.


John 8:50 "And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.


As you can clearly see. He clarifies his position in the bible as a servant of Allah. He claimed no authority as God in the flesh as some would try to make us believe. "Any" divinity that he posessed was by leave of Allah. This is evident as I have shown, using the bible and the quran.

Now you come along and claim that you have an interpretation that makes Jesus a liar.

Jesus didn't lie. People such as yourself and Apple Pie lied on Jesus by saying that Jesus said he is God. The words out of Jesus' own mouth proves he told the truth.

Here's the interpertaion I give of Jesus. He was not God, because he said he wasn't, He wasn't a god because he said he wasn't, He was a servent of God because that what he proved he was, he submitted to the will of God because he said he did.....

Really, this stuff is not hard to understand. His words are clear, be they quranic verses or biblical verses.......

I prefer to believe that you just don't understand what is being said in the Qu'ran and that it is your interpretation that is incorrect.

As you can clearly see, it is you who do not understand. It is you who are misinterperting the bible as well as the quran. Jesus said it himself, from his own lips.


5:110
When God said, 'Jesus Son of Mary, remember My blessing upon thee and upon thy mother, when I confirmed thee with the Holy Spirit, to speak to men in the cradle, and of age; and when I taught thee the Book, the Wisdom, the Torah, the Gospel; and when thou createst out of clay, by My leave, as the likeness of a bird, and thou breathest into it, and it is a bird, by My leave; and thou healest the blind and the leper by My leave, and thou bringest the dead forth by My leave; and when restrained from thee the Children of Israel when thou camest unto them with the clear signs, and the unbelievers among them said, "This is nothing but sorcery manifest."


5:116
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said, 'To Thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen.


Plain and simple. Jesus nerver said he was God or a god. You failed to put forth anything convincing of the claims you've made about Jesus. I have given you more than enough to prove to you that Jesus was exactly who I said he was. One does not have to put forth deep inteprertation of Jesus. He left us information as to who and what he was. Observing the above is eaxctly who and what he was....be it a biblical description from his own lips or a quranic confirmation.

 

[ellenjanuary]

John 8:58 - before Abraham was, I AM Exodus 3:24 - tell them that I AM

It is my contention that it is not so important whether or not we think Jesus claimed to be God, but whether or not his contemporaries thought his words were a claim to be Gob. In all of John 8, Jesus is speaking to the Jewish leaders, but it is not until he speaks the words of 8:58 that they pick up stones.

I understand the word "Koran" to mean "recital." Often, in the Koran, a line will begin, say! Or recite! The fact of the Koran being originally an oral tradition has been mentioned here. I believe in the. Holy Spirit; in a cultural context, that basically makes me Christian. But I have no problem with the Bible, the Koran, the Gita, the tao... all of these things have been provided to give understanding of things beyond understanding. It is an understanding that first must come from within before it is expressed without. Thus, I consider a fixation on mere translation to be only half the story without an attempt at understanding of the Arab people - the "soul" as it were, without which the Koran would be just another book of poetry. I don't understand everything, but I do understand enough to say-

Allah akbar.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

John 8:58 - before Abraham was, I AM Exodus 3:24 - tell them that I AM

The I AM in Hebrew and the I am in Greek are dependent on the context of the verses before and after. In 8:58 all Yeshua was saying was that he existed before Abraham existed. A study of chapter 8 in context reveals how the Jews misunderstood his words, how he tried to clarify what he was saying and how they felt as though he was disrespecting Abraham.....Whether he said he was "God" or not really isn't important to this thread but clarification is in the whole of his prayer to his god in the very same book of John chapter 17. Additionally we know that the Lamb (Yeshua) in Revelation is not "God" because in one verse about 4 or 5 times he says he has a god. If he is "God" then we are left with the question as to why would the ascended "God" say he has a god. Also in Revelation 4 and 5 we clearly see he isn't "God".....

 

[ellenjanuary]

The I AM in Hebrew and the I am in Greek are dependent on the context of the verses before and after. In 8:58 all Yeshua was saying was that he existed before Abraham existed. A study of chapter 8 in context reveals how the Jews misunderstood his words, how he tried to clarify what he was saying and how they felt as though he was disrespecting Abraham.....Whether he said he was "God" or not really isn't important to this thread but clarification is in the whole of his prayer to his god in the very same book of John chapter 17. Additionally we know that the Lamb (Yeshua) in Revelation is not "God" because in one verse about 4 or 5 times he says he has a god. If he is "God" then we are left with the question as to why would the ascended "God" say he has a god. Also in Revelation 4 and 5 we clearly see he isn't "God".....

And saying that he existed before Abraham existed is not a claim to be God?

 

[ellenjanuary]

Sorry. My box of Gwynnies had to go and take a nap. I went home and consulted the Bible... I still say it's a matter of personal interpretation. Since I believe Jesus said he was God, what I read tends to reinforce that belief. According to John 17, God loved Jesus before the creation. How is that possible if Jesus isn't God? The only thing that existed before creation was God...

But it is not my intention in this thread to argue the divinity of the Christ. The OP, to me, seems to me to be an attack on the sincerity of Islam; that somehow scholarship is transcendant. I got no problem with scholarship, but a bunch of words plus a bunch of learning does not equal a sincere faith.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I still say it's a matter of personal interpretation. Since I believe Jesus said he was God, what I read tends to reinforce that belief.

No problem if that is your personal take on it. Mine is different because the words that are attributed to Yeshua in the bible are explicit that he has a god.

According to John 17, God loved Jesus before the creation.

If "God" loved Yeshua then they are not (one god)...but two distinct and separate beings/entities

How is that possible if Jesus isn't God? The only thing that existed before creation was God...

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had WITH thee before the world was


John 17:8
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

But it is not my intention in this thread to argue the divinity of the Christ. The OP, to me, seems to me to be an attack on the sincerity of Islam; that somehow scholarship is transcendant. I got no problem with scholarship, but a bunch of words plus a bunch of learning does not equal a sincere faith.

I understand. The OP made it his mission to misrepresent true scholarship and linguistics in the area of the Arabic language. Most pickup a Lexicon and a dictionary and suddenly think they are equipped to tackle any Quranic verse without really understanding linguistics and context. The OP's rendering of certain Quranic verses are not backed by any scholarly work or any scholarly consensus. After his insistence that A.J. Arberry, a non-muslim scholar, translated the Quran 4:171 and it was supposedly in agreement with his assertion I researched that scholar and started using qoutes to show that the scholar, who's work is world renowned and one of the best Arabist who translated the Quran from the Classical Arabic, had plenty of verses he translated that said explicitly Isa (Jesus) was not the son of Allah. After I started uses the Quran he quoted from he then wanted me to put forth a reason for using it....I found this to be an idiotic request. I was confused as to why he felt he could use it offering no exegesis but then when I took his advice and started to use it all of a sudden there's a problem. There's another member here doing the same sort of thing.

 

[ellenjanuary]

No problem if that is your personal take on it. Mine is different because the words that are attributed to Yeshua in the bible are explicit that he has a god.



If "God" loved Yeshua then they are not (one god)...but two distinct and separate beings/entities



John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had WITH thee before the world was


John 17:8
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.



I understand. The OP made it his mission to misrepresent true scholarship and linguistics in the area of the Arabic language. Most pickup a Lexicon and a dictionary and suddenly think they are equipped to tackle any Quranic verse without really understanding linguistics and context. The OP's rendering of certain Quranic verses are not backed by any scholarly work or any scholarly consensus. After his insistence that A.J. Arberry, a non-muslim scholar, translated the Quran 4:171 and it was supposedly in agreement with his assertion I researched that scholar and started using qoutes to show that the scholar, who's work is world renowned and one of the best Arabist who translated the Quran from the Classical Arabic, had plenty of verses he translated that said explicitly Isa (Jesus) was not the son of Allah. After I started uses the Quran he quoted from he then wanted me to put forth a reason for using it....I found this to be an idiotic request. I was confused as to why he felt he could use it offering no exegesis but then when I took his advice and started to use it all of a sudden there's a problem. There's another member here doing the same sort of thing.

Them... OK. Thanks for clearing that up. Because I went off on a tangent, and had to state just what it was about the OP that bugged me. Now that we're communicating, it seems we're on the same page. That usually happens.

I probably should have said, "I used to believe that Jesus said he was God...;" because I used to believe I knew stuff. Now, I mostly try and learn. If there's a problem with my theology, it is partly to blame on my belief in quantum theory - the simultaneous duality of Jesus being both god/not god ain't really no big deal.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Them... OK. Thanks for clearing that up. Because I went off on a tangent, and had to state just what it was about the OP that bugged me. Now that we're communicating, it seems we're on the same page. That usually happens.

I probably should have said, "I used to believe that Jesus said he was God...;" because I used to believe I knew stuff. Now, I mostly try and learn. If there's a problem with my theology, it is partly to blame on my belief in quantum theory - the simultaneous duality of Jesus being both god/not god ain't really no big deal.

I agree. I love The subject on the Quran, Trinity, Jesus' Deity etc.... I'm and Atheist so some find it so weird I'd even engage in such debates. When I engage I try to keep it civil and try to stick to the topic without jumping in and screaming (gods don't exist). I debate, research and listen and usually walk away knowing more about what others believe than what I thought I knew before I jumped in....

 

[ellenjanuary]

I agree. I love The subject on the Quran, Trinity, Jesus' Deity etc.... I'm and Atheist so some find it so weird I'd even engage in such debates. When I engage I try to keep it civil and try to stick to the topic without jumping in and screaming (gods don't exist). I debate, research and listen and usually walk away knowing more about what others believe than what I thought I knew before I jumped in....

It's good to know that some people on this board can communicate. I see a lot of ego (and even the fool ain't without a measure of pride), but there's a lot of knowledge here as well. Patience is key, I guess...

And speaking of funny, I just spent four hours at a Christian church, and I ain't even Christian. I'm a theist, but if one were to be technical about it, I'm an agnostic anarchist.