Koran:...Jesus is the Son...

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I never stated that it was wrong for the Qu'ran to not be the word of God. If you had read earlier you might have seen that I do believe that the Qu'ran is the word of God. I would further state that I believe both scriptures are in harmony because they have the same author.

there is only one God, and one book which has not been altered and has been preserved. Unfortunately that book is not the bible. The bible is man's creation not Allah's. there is a big difference between revelation and inspiration.

Dre: in 171 Jesus is a spirit from God. One would not say that about man because man is not from God but created by Him. Also in 171 Jesus is the Word which is inseparable from God as is explained in John 1.

What do you mean Jesus is a spririt from God. Allah created him. The world received him from Allah. I do not understand what you are saying.

Stop comparing ayat of Quran with the bible. the bible is not a book for exegesis of Quran. The Quran, and the Sunnah of the Messenger are the only authorities in understanding the truth from Allah ie. the Quran.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Dre: in 171 Jesus is a spirit from God. One would not say that about man because man is not from God but created by Him.

If you mean God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit then I can see where you are coming from. To me there is a clear distinction between God and Jesus as I have previously shown. As fas as man's spirit not being from God consider the following;

Job 33:4
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.


Isaiah 42:4
Thus saith God, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Again, we may agree to disagree because we are coming from two different areas of thinking. I haven't seen evidence of Jesus being the creator only being the created.

Also in 171 Jesus is the Word which is inseparable from God as is explained in

John 1.

The (word) is that of truth.

Quran
19:34
That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting.

He came confirming their way of life and told them it would not change nor was he here to change it. He also came declaring "There is no god but God and all praise is due to God". Jesus came to his people (lost sheep of the house of Israel) because they had seriously gone astray from the (word) of God.

Jesus was not God. He said it and God said it.

Numbers 23:19
For God is not a man that he should sin neither is God the son of man that he shall have to repent.

Quran
5:116
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said, 'To Thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen.

If you believe that the bible and the quran are in harmony then you must agree that God has no son and Jesus is not God. This is the position of the quran. Jesus' "divinity" was granted to him by God, as shown in the quran.

5:110
When God said, 'Jesus Son of Mary, remember My blessing upon thee and upon thy mother, when I confirmed thee with the Holy Spirit, to speak to men in the cradle, and of age; and when I taught thee the Book, the Wisdom, the Torah, the Gospel; and when thou createst out of clay, by My leave, as the likeness of a bird, and thou breathest into it, and it is a bird, by My leave; and thou healest the blind and the leper by My leave, and thou bringest the dead forth by My leave; and when restrained from thee the Children of Israel when thou camest unto them with the clear signs, and the unbelievers among them said, "This is nothing but sorcery manifest."

 

[joeboonda]

1 John 5


1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[Muffled]

Is this creed in the bible? If it is not then how is it an authority in your religion. If there is no basis for it from scripture itself how do you validate it. Please explain this creed within the context of the verse I gave you. Please explain how He is god in flesh, yet the book you claim to be from God is saying otherwise.

And there are Christian groups now that reject this creed for there is no basis for it in scripture.

what is an authority in your religion. Allah, Jesus, who else. And who gave them this authority. Did Paul have the authority. Does the bible ever say to take the testimony of a Pharisee. What did Jesus say. Did Jesus state this creed about himself? did He tell the disciples this? where is the evidence for this. Pick any bible I do not care. Find one place in the bible where Jesus says he is God. The bible says in Numbers 23:19 That God is not a man nor a son of man.

So Muffled are you telling me this creed has more authority then the bible itself. is this not what christians call the word of God. God is telling you in his book you claim to be from him that he cannot be a man EVER. A man is a created thing, Allah is the Creator hence can never be created. So who is the authority in the relgion, the one who authored the bible or the one who authored the creed.

The Paraclete is also the authority being one with the Father and Jesus. The Paraclete operates in Christians who are submitted to Him. The Roman Catholic Church has claimed that they were given authority by Peter but as a Protestant I don't agree with that. I belilieve this particular creed was developed by Athanasius if I remember correctly. Whether he was sensitive to the leading of the Paraclete or not in this matter I am not able to say. However since His creed is not provable from the Bible and the Paraclete gives me different information, I tend to think his creed is only church authorized philosophy.

You are mistaking the creation for the creator. You are correct in saying that Allah is the uncreated. You are totally incorrect if you just view the body of Jesus as God since the body is a created thing. God is a spirit and He created man in His image which means that man is also a spirit. God breathed the spirit of man into a created body. At the conception of Jesus He breathed His own spirit into the body of Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

If you mean God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit then I can see where you are coming from. To me there is a clear distinction between God and Jesus as I have previously shown. As fas as man's spirit not being from God consider the following;

Job 33:4
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.


Isaiah 42:4
Thus saith God, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Again, we may agree to disagree because we are coming from two different areas of thinking. I haven't seen evidence of Jesus being the creator only being the created.




The (word) is that of truth.

Quran
19:34
That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting.

He came confirming their way of life and told them it would not change nor was he here to change it. He also came declaring "There is no god but God and all praise is due to God". Jesus came to his people (lost sheep of the house of Israel) because they had seriously gone astray from the (word) of God.

Jesus was not God. He said it and God said it.

Numbers 23:19
For God is not a man that he should sin neither is God the son of man that he shall have to repent.

Quran
5:116
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said, 'To Thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen.

If you believe that the bible and the quran are in harmony then you must agree that God has no son and Jesus is not God. This is the position of the quran. Jesus' "divinity" was granted to him by God, as shown in the quran.

5:110
When God said, 'Jesus Son of Mary, remember My blessing upon thee and upon thy mother, when I confirmed thee with the Holy Spirit, to speak to men in the cradle, and of age; and when I taught thee the Book, the Wisdom, the Torah, the Gospel; and when thou createst out of clay, by My leave, as the likeness of a bird, and thou breathest into it, and it is a bird, by My leave; and thou healest the blind and the leper by My leave, and thou bringest the dead forth by My leave; and when restrained from thee the Children of Israel when thou camest unto them with the clear signs, and the unbelievers among them said, "This is nothing but sorcery manifest."

I will have to reiterate. The spirit of man is created by God which is what the former verse says and that spirit was breathed into Adam to make him a living soul which is what the latter verse states. A spirit from God can not be a created spirit because it is from God who is uncreated. It is the same thing as saying "the spirit of God."

You are having the same problem as Mujahid Mohammed discerning the difference between the creation and the creator. The flesh can't sin. When that dead body lies in the grave it no longer is capable of sin. It is the spirit of man that sins. Since Jesus does not have the spirit of man but has the spirit of God, He does not sin as the Bible correctly states.

I would never say that there is more than one God. When I say that Jesus is God in the flesh I agree with Jesus who says He is one with the Father. There is not one god inside the flesh and another outside the flesh, there is only one God existing in the flesh of Jesus and outside of it.

PS: God told me last night that the expression in 171 that says "His son" actually should read "Allah is His Son."

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

The Paraclete is also the authority being one with the Father and Jesus.

What is your evidence from the bible that the Paraclete is an authority and if it is can it contradict the verses in question. Stop trying to steer away from the question at hand.

Please make me to understand this Creed from within the context of Numbers 23:19

The Paraclete operates in Christians who are submitted to Him.{/quote] is the Paraclete male or female. And how is something that was understood to always have been there now be conditional for jesus to leave inorder for [him key word him] inorder for him to come.

The Roman Catholic Church has claimed that they were given authority by Peter but as a Protestant I don't agree with that.

I do not care what they claim where is there evidence of validation from the words of Jesus or God in the bible the book they themselves compiled with inspiration why did not God inspire it into the text if it is essential to the dogma. But again people claim alot of things without proof, I know people who claim they saw Elvis in the mall are we to beleive them also.

I belilieve this particular creed was developed by Athanasius if I remember correctly. Whether he was sensitive to the leading of the Paraclete or not in this matter I am not able to say. However since His creed is not provable from the Bible and the Paraclete gives me different information, I tend to think his creed is only church authorized philosophy.

so why if you can see it is not provale from the Bible do you insist on using it as an evidence to validate certain dogma within faith. And how can I accept something when you yourself do not know where it came from.

You are mistaking the creation for the creator.

I am? how?

You are correct in saying that Allah is the uncreated. You are totally incorrect if you just view the body of Jesus as God since the body is a created thing. God is a spirit

Everything including the spririt was created by Allah. Allah cannot be a spirit for the essense of the spririt was created by the Creator. If not define spirit. Is not the soul of a human being understood as being the spirit is not the soul created. You guys always claim that God said He created man in His image. So then you imply that God looks like man. It is confusing so when He was on the cross as you guys claim and he was praying to himself asking himself why he forsaked himself. He then dies and takes himself up to himself? Now if God is eternal then who died?

And I am wondering, so when human beings die, what happens to the spirit within them. does it die. the reason I ask is because if Jesus is God and as you said I cannot look at the human vessel it is the spirit within that makes it God, right because you believe the spririt contained within the vessel of Jesus is God himelf correct? if this is so, can we all conclude that all humanbeings are Gods. For all of us Muslim, christian, Jew believe in the hereafter life after death. So none of us really die as far as the spirit goes. Our spirit remains just like Jesus was as God as you claim. What exactly makes the spirit in Jesus God exactly?

and He created man in His image which means that man is also a spirit. God breathed the spirit of man into a created body. At the conception of Jesus He breathed His own spirit into the body of Jesus.

Care to clarify all this within the context of the verse I mentioned. Why do Christians stay away from the verse in question.

You see the issue is I do not have a problem that the bible says that He created man in his image, nor do i have a problem with you saying he is the son of God. You are perfectly validated to believe that if you wish and it is understandable considering the verses contained in it. But what about the other verses that completely contradict each other not only in context, but accounts of events, conflicts in ideology and methodology, conflicts within the authenticity amongst the various texts. All the Chrisitan groups have verses which can not only be given whatever interpretation they want but it validates everyone ideology. for if one examines how the bible was compiled then you understand why the texts vary even from what has been compiled together.

Are not all these verses inspired by God. What about the other ones. YOu guys say that Jesus is the son of God. Then why if God inspired the bible is Jesus name not mentioned. There are two listing of geneology for Jesus listing 66 names of men for a man who father was God. The geneology should have been simple. Why is Joseph's name in the geneology he is not his father. why are the two lists not identical. they have different names for different people. did God inspire one and not the other or did he inspire them both to be incorrect. where does Jesus ever say he is God. does god eat, sleep, pray to himself, send food to himself. If Jesus is the trinity as others say then how can God send himself(the holy spirit) to himself(Jesus) when he says that it is conditional for him to leave in order for the spirit to come. John 16:7. The spirit was with Jesus, the disciples, Mary, zacharia, Elizabeth etc. etc. how can something that is already their from the testimony of god himself now need God to leave in order for him(? why does it say him, or he when describing the Paraclete think about it) but anyways it is things like that and things said by different people which leaves me and others to ask who is an authority in your religion. It seems you guys just accept whatever without even knowing who gave it to you. I mean the Christian creed, if Jesus never did it or mentioned it how can you add to something he himself did not do.

We cannot do that in Islam, when people do you see the stupidity and division it causes. That is the wisdom behind sticking to the fundamental principles of your faith based on the interpretation and example of the one who gave it to you and those that followed him without swaying. to not just accept the testimony of anyone or anything unless they are given authority from the sources you have. Ours is the Quran and Sunnah. yours should be the manuscripts compiled by the disciples and students of them not just any nut with a pen and paper who for the most part did not even have the courage to sign their name when they purposely altered the text to attract more people to their cause.

Maybe this is to much for you insha Allah I have many question still unanswered by Christians. Maybe I will list them insha Allah in a post and try to get some real answers from those of knowledge.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I will have to reiterate. The spirit of man is created by God which is what the former verse says and that spirit was breathed into Adam to make him a living soul which is what the latter verse states.

yes but it also says that the creation of Adam is similar to the creation of Jesus, Kun faya kun, be and it is. Allah will it to be and it happened. The same as it was before. Allah created Adam with no mother and no father and no helpers, He created him with just a word from Him an extension of His will, He did the same to Jesus.

A spirit from God can not be a created spirit because it is from God who is uncreated. It is the same thing as saying "the spirit of God."

I think you mean the spirit as God, question how does this make sense because it came from God then it is uncreated. All things come from Allah, Just like if I send you some flowers, they came from me. Now Allah created everything and sent countless things as lessons and signs for us as humanbeings to adhere to.

You are having the same problem as Mujahid Mohammed discerning the difference between the creation and the creator.

That is hilarious, you call Jesus a created thing God you book says otherwise and i am the one who has a problem discerning who the creation and creator is, thats real rich.

The flesh can't sin. When that dead body lies in the grave it no longer is capable of sin.

so when we are dead we are still capable of committing sin. How does this even make sense. what about when it is alive can it commit is then. is not the soul a piece of the flesh until Allah removes it from you when you die.

It is the spirit of man that sins. Since Jesus does not have the spirit of man but has the spirit of God, He does not sin as the Bible correctly states.

Well god cannot be the son of human beings as the bible verse states. God is supposed to be in a human vessel. His spirit contained within a imperfect human body. A being whose essence is pure perfection and who is free of any needs now puts himself in something that is always in need and is tortured and killed physically by those he created.

I would never say that there is more than one God. When I say that Jesus is God in the flesh I agree with Jesus who says He is one with the Father.

He also said the father is greater then I.

There is not one god inside the flesh and another outside the flesh, there is only one God existing in the flesh of Jesus and outside of it.

For God is NOT A MAN, THAT HE SHOULD COMMITT SIN, That does not say for God is not a man except when he is living within the human vessel of Jesus.

NEITHER IS HE THE SONE OF MAN THAT HE SHOULD HAVE TO REPENT. So if God cannot be man or cannot be a son of man or born of man, for that would make him repent.

Why did Jesus repent, ask Himself for assistance.

PS:

God told me last night that the expression in 171 that says "His son" actually should read "Allah is His Son."

so you recieve revelation from Allah. Can you ask God to explain Numbers 23:19 from within the context of your Christian creed. Try explaining verses in your own book before you try to tell us what ours should say.

In other words try cleaning you own house first and put things where they need to go before you come to my house and try to move things which have been cemented and fastened so tight that only Allah can change it.

Let your God interpret the verses he supposedly inspired, and since Allah wrote our Quran it is obvious that whomever you spoke with is not an authority in our religion as me and many have already said. we have the criterion. But that would come from reading the Quran.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

PS: God told me last night that the expression in 171 that says "His son" actually should read "Allah is His Son."

I would have responded to the other stuff but Mujahid Mohammed beat me to it.

But to your statement above, it should not read this. If it was supposed to it would have. As I have said to Apple Pie, use that lexicon or any lexicon, or arabic dictionary to translate and define that ayah and it will never say "Allah is is son" or Allah has a son.

Again, you if you truely believe the Quran and the Bible are in harmony then you would never have made that statement.

Quran
2:2
That is the Book, wherein is no doubt, a guidance to the godfearing

Bible
Numbers 23:19
For God is not a man that he should sin neither is God the son of man that he shall have to repent.

Quran
112:3
who has not begotten, and has not been begotten,

So, no, "Allah is not his son."

It could never be rendered as such becasue the next verse says that Christ and the angels despise not to worship Allah.

Quran
4:172
The Messiah will not disdain to be a servant of God, neither the angels who are near stationed to Him. Whosoever disdains to serve Him, and waxes proud, He will assuredly muster them to Him, all of them.

So Allah is not a son of any man.......

 

[Muffled]

quote=Muffled You are mistaking the creation for the creator quote

I am? how?

Everything including the spririt was created by Allah. Allah cannot be a spirit for the essense of the spririt was created by the Creator. If not define spirit. Is not the soul of a human being understood as being the spirit is not the soul created. You guys always claim that God said He created man in His image. So then you imply that God looks like man. It is confusing so when He was on the cross as you guys claim and he was praying to himself asking himself why he forsaked himself. He then dies and takes himself up to himself? Now if God is eternal then who died?

And I am wondering, so when human beings die, what happens to the spirit within them. does it die. the reason I ask is because if Jesus is God and as you said I cannot look at the human vessel it is the spirit within that makes it God, right because you believe the spririt contained within the vessel of Jesus is God himelf correct? if this is so, can we all conclude that all humanbeings are Gods. For all of us Muslim, christian, Jew believe in the hereafter life after death. So none of us really die as far as the spirit goes. Our spirit remains just like Jesus was as God as you claim. What exactly makes the spirit in Jesus God exactly?

Care to clarify all this within the context of the verse I mentioned. Why do Christians stay away from the verse in question.

I apolgize for not answering all your questions at this point.

When we say that Jesus is God in the flesh, you have a tendency to view this as saying that God is the flesh. God can't be the flesh because flesh is a creation. Jesus is the combination of flesh and the spirit of God. Since the spirit commands the body, all actions and words by Jesus are the actions and words of God. This is somewhat different from saying that Jesus is God because that would include the flesh and the flesh is not God. However while God is in the flesh He is inseparable from it because He is a living soul.

I doubt that you will be able to find anything in the Qu'ran to support that statement. God is uncreated and He is a spirit. The spirits of men were created. The spirit of man is similar to God's spirit but not the same. God's spirit is diffused throughout the universe. The spirit of man is finite.

If you ever can find anyone who can authoritatively do that let me know.

God first created the spirit of man, then He created the body. He breathed in the spirit of man into the body and it became a soul. As for Jesus the conception of His body was created in the womb of Mary and the spirit of God was breathed in to make it a soul. The body was created the spirit of God in Jesus was not.

Yes that is what I am saying. No you can't conclude that from the facts I gave you. It is reaoning from the one to many. Just because there is one instance of a Godsoul, does not mean that all souls are Godsouls.

I think you are asking how you can recognize that God is in Jesus. The obvious answer is that He is without sin. After that it is the attributes of God that are displayed in Jesus.

God is not man. Jesus is not man except in appearance of flesh and it is not the flesh which sins it is the spirit. The spirit of God does not sin. Perhaps there are Christians who are much less informed about the divinity of Jesus and don't feel qualified to talk about this verse.

 

[Muffled]

So Allah is not a son of any man.......

That is not what God said to me. if you need me to get rid of all the prepositions for you this is it: Allah is Allah's son. There is no mention of man in it.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

That is not what God said to me. if you need me to get rid of all the prepositions for you this is it: Allah is Allah's son. There is no mention of man in it.

Do what you like.

Bible
Numbers 23:19 stands firm. Can you dismiss this one?
For God is not a man that he should sin neither is God the son of man that he shall have to repent.

or...

Quran
112:3
who has not begotten, and has not been begotten,

112:4
and equal to Him is not any one

25:2
to whom belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth; and He has not taken to Him a son, and He has no associate in the Kingdom; and He created every thing, then He ordained it very exactly.

2:2
That is the Book, wherein is no doubt, a guidance to the godfearing

I can see this harmony you spoke about. Can you?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I apolgize for not answering all your questions at this point.

When we say that Jesus is God in the flesh, you have a tendency to view this as saying that God is the flesh. God can't be the flesh because flesh is a creation. Jesus is the combination of flesh and the spirit of God. Since the spirit commands the body, all actions and words by Jesus are the actions and words of God. This is somewhat different from saying that Jesus is God because that would include the flesh and the flesh is not God. However while God is in the flesh He is inseparable from it because He is a living soul.

I doubt that you will be able to find anything in the Qu'ran to support that statement. God is uncreated and He is a spirit. The spirits of men were created. The spirit of man is similar to God's spirit but not the same. God's spirit is diffused throughout the universe. The spirit of man is finite.

If you ever can find anyone who can authoritatively do that let me know.

God first created the spirit of man, then He created the body. He breathed in the spirit of man into the body and it became a soul. As for Jesus the conception of His body was created in the womb of Mary and the spirit of God was breathed in to make it a soul. The body was created the spirit of God in Jesus was not.

Yes that is what I am saying. No you can't conclude that from the facts I gave you. It is reaoning from the one to many. Just because there is one instance of a Godsoul, does not mean that all souls are Godsouls.

I think you are asking how you can recognize that God is in Jesus. The obvious answer is that He is without sin. After that it is the attributes of God that are displayed in Jesus.

God is not man. Jesus is not man except in appearance of flesh and it is not the flesh which sins it is the spirit. The spirit of God does not sin. Perhaps there are Christians who are much less informed about the divinity of Jesus and don't feel qualified to talk about this verse.

still you stay away from the verse, just explain the dogma within this verse's context.

Please anyone out there explain how Jesus is Allah in relation to a verse in your book you call guidance from God.

 

[Muffled]

still you stay away from the verse, just explain the dogma within this verse's context.

Please anyone out there explain how Jesus is Allah in relation to a verse in your book you call guidance from God.

Ihave told you before but I will tell you again. Allah is not a manbecause He doesn't have the spirit of man. Jesus is Allah in the flesh because He doesn't have the spirit of man He has the spirit of God.

 

[Muffled]

Do what you like.

Bible
Numbers 23:19 stands firm. Can you dismiss this one?
For God is not a man that he should sin neither is God the son of man that he shall have to repent.

or...

Quran
112:3
who has not begotten, and has not been begotten,

112:4
and equal to Him is not any one

25:2
to whom belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth; and He has not taken to Him a son, and He has no associate in the Kingdom; and He created every thing, then He ordained it very exactly.

2:2
That is the Book, wherein is no doubt, a guidance to the godfearing

I can see this harmony you spoke about. Can you?

I am a servant of God. I don't do or say what I like but I do as God's spirit moves me and speak the words God puts in my mouth.

See the previous message.

Begotten in the Bible always means having a child by performing sex. That is not how Jesus was conceived. However John used that word to describe a begetting of a different kind. For that reason the Qu'ran and the Bible can be using the word to mean two different things.

Jesus is equal to God because He is God in the flesh. However the flesh can not be equal with God so for that reason the Father is greater because the father is not encumbered with flesh.


This is the same thing as 171. Jesus is a son because He is the son of Mary and He is God in the flesh. Jesus is not an associate (partner) or a God jr., He is God in the flesh.

 

[moon1]

catholics have at least 5 or 6 books more in their bible than the protestants(some anglican churches still use the extra books though). martin luther excised them from protestant bible in 15th century.

syrian ortodox church have saint thomas bible others dont have that.

slavic orthodox, etheopian orthodox etc have different things in their bible uncommon to others.

my question is --- can a scripture of God(if undistorted) be so different from each other???

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I am a servant of God. I don't do or say what I like but I do as God's spirit moves me and speak the words God puts in my mouth.

See the previous message.

Begotten in the Bible always means having a child by performing sex. That is not how Jesus was conceived. However John used that word to describe a begetting of a different kind. For that reason the Qu'ran and the Bible can be using the word to mean two different things.

Jesus is equal to God because He is God in the flesh. However the flesh can not be equal with God so for that reason the Father is greater because the father is not encumbered with flesh.

This is the same thing as 171. Jesus is a son because He is the son of Mary and He is God in the flesh. Jesus is not an associate (partner) or a God jr., He is God in the flesh.

Either way you try to spin it you will be hard pressed to use to Quran to show that Jesus is God. The Quran is firm that God is God. God has no partners. God has no equal. God has no son.

That whole sura, should people want to go back and read all of it, has nothing to do with Jesus being God (at all) or being the son of God.

NONE of the other verses I have posted can be disputed because the lexicons and the arabic dictionaries will not allow you to translate it any other way.

When it says God has not equal, It doesn't mean Jesus has no equal. In fact the Quran states there is no distinction from any of the messengers. They are all messengers of God.

This is why in 4:171 it tells us who Jesus is, concerning God.

4:171
People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and SAY NOT, THREE.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian.


Jesus is only the messenger of God
God is only one god
There is no trinity (three) and if you say this to be truth then you are lieing

Jesus is seperate from God
God is God and has no equal
God gives the spirit to whom God pleases

Isaiah 63:11
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

I believe the above is talking about the Holy Spirit in Moses. (i could be wrong on this one).

Daniel 4:18
This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy elohim is in thee.

Luke 1:41
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit:

Luke 1:67
And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying,

Luke 2:25
And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Ihave told you before but I will tell you again. Allah is not a man because He doesn't have the spirit of man. Jesus is Allah in the flesh because He doesn't have the spirit of man He has the spirit of God.

You say Allah is not a man, yet Jesus is man, clearly he eat food, drank, went to the bathroom and prayed to according to your statements himself. Now if Allah is not a man then how can you say Jesus is Allah in the flesh. So when God is in the flesh he is going to the bathroom and sleeping, and bleeding. How is that possible.

I asked you very clearly to explain your ideology from within the context of the verse where is says clearly that God is not a man, neither is he the son of man. Meaning he cannot be even born of man. He is not the son of man. He is not born of us. so explain how if Jesus is God, then please answer the question.

Who was he praying to when he was on the cross?

Who was he praying to when the romans came for him?

Who is this father he is talking about who is greater then he is?

Who? Seriously if he is God, then who was he talking about. do you need me to give you the verse references?

what basis am I to believe you in any of this. where in the bible did God or Jesus ever say this is how it is. I am Jesus and he is me so worship him for I am him. where? Where in the bible does God or Jesus ever say God and I are the same being in a literal context? Where in the bible is there any credibility from the testimony of the ones who you claim to follow and are responsible for the authoring of the text.

Should not once the ones who supposedly gave you the book ie. Allah and Jesus have mentioned any of this stuff? I am only saying once please give me one explicit statement of supporting testimony for your ideology of Jesus is God from the testimony of the authors or insprirers of the text.

Help me out here. Make me understand this stuff from the source of your belief the bible? I am giving what the bible has in it as a witness of its testimony of truth.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

catholics have at least 5 or 6 books more in their bible than the protestants(some anglican churches still use the extra books though). martin luther excised them from protestant bible in 15th century.

syrian ortodox church have saint thomas bible others dont have that.

slavic orthodox, etheopian orthodox etc have different things in their bible uncommon to others.

my question is --- can a scripture of God(if undistorted) be so different from each other???

If it is undistorted then there would be only one. but you see, they have a plethera of different texts. The original kjv had 80 chapter in it. And the bishop of Canteburry came along and changed it in the 1800 or something. so the Original authorised version the claim to have is real the Unauthorized authorized version of the King James, for King James never authorized this man to change his version of it. And I love that word, VERSION. Say it with me VERSION, It just makes you ask questions immediately about the authenticity. I mean King James version, catholic version, mormon version, everybody has there own version and nothing original and unaltered to compare from. Everything is a copy of a copy that may have been altered.

But they believe it to be true as a form of guidance.

 

[wizanda]

Yeshua is like a son :angel2:.....the problem is that the book of John Nicodemus/Nicolaitans was a Pharisee and said "the begotten son of God"..... God never begets anything...
It all is God's to begin with....else it wouldn't be...
yet clearly when the Bible also says we hate the doctrine of Nicolaitans i.e. the gospel of John...then isn't it about time we fixed it?

 

[Muffled]

Either way you try to spin it you will be hard pressed to use to Quran to show that Jesus is God. The Quran is firm that God is God. God has no partners. God has no equal. God has no son.

That whole sura, should people want to go back and read all of it, has nothing to do with Jesus being God (at all) or being the son of God.

NONE of the other verses I have posted can be disputed because the lexicons and the arabic dictionaries will not allow you to translate it any other way.

When it says God has not equal, It doesn't mean Jesus has no equal. In fact the Quran states there is no distinction from any of the messengers. They are all messengers of God.

This is why in 4:171 it tells us who Jesus is, concerning God.

4:171
People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and SAY NOT, THREE.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian.


Jesus is only the messenger of God
God is only one god
There is no trinity (three) and if you say this to be truth then you are lieing

Jesus is seperate from God
God is God and has no equal
God gives the spirit to whom God pleases

Isaiah 63:11
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

I believe the above is talking about the Holy Spirit in Moses. (i could be wrong on this one).

Daniel 4:18
This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy elohim is in thee.

Luke 1:41
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit:

Luke 1:67
And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying,

Luke 2:25
And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

Now it is time for you to lay out your cards on the lexicon. Apple pie says he has the lexicon. You say you have another. Reveal yours in reference to 171 because you can prove nothing to me by saying you have this hidden lexicon in your mind that no one can see. I think you are having delusions about a lexicon that doesn't exist.

If you have a different lexicon and can show it, what makes your lexicon superior and why are there more than one to begin with?