Koran:...Jesus is the Son...

[Muffled]

You say Allah is not a man, yet Jesus is man, clearly he eat food, drank, went to the bathroom and prayed to according to your statements himself. Now if Allah is not a man then how can you say Jesus is Allah in the flesh. So when God is in the flesh he is going to the bathroom and sleeping, and bleeding. How is that possible.

I asked you very clearly to explain your ideology from within the context of the verse where is says clearly that God is not a man, neither is he the son of man. Meaning he cannot be even born of man. He is not the son of man. He is not born of us. so explain how if Jesus is God, then please answer the question.

Who was he praying to when he was on the cross?

Who was he praying to when the romans came for him?

Who is this father he is talking about who is greater then he is?

Who? Seriously if he is God, then who was he talking about. do you need me to give you the verse references?

what basis am I to believe you in any of this. where in the bible did God or Jesus ever say this is how it is. I am Jesus and he is me so worship him for I am him. where? Where in the bible does God or Jesus ever say God and I are the same being in a literal context? Where in the bible is there any credibility from the testimony of the ones who you claim to follow and are responsible for the authoring of the text.

Should not once the ones who supposedly gave you the book ie. Allah and Jesus have mentioned any of this stuff? I am only saying once please give me one explicit statement of supporting testimony for your ideology of Jesus is God from the testimony of the authors or insprirers of the text.

Help me out here. Make me understand this stuff from the source of your belief the bible? I am giving what the bible has in it as a witness of its testimony of truth.

This is a problem with the English language. We do not have a seperate word for the spirit of man and although we have the word mankind for men and women often as not man is used as an expression of both. God is not the flesh. The flesh eats food,drinks and goes to the bathroom. The spirit of God is in control of the flesh in the same way that the spirit of man is in control of the flesh. The flesh can't decide to be a man, it can only do what a man tells it to do. In Jesus the flesh is not God it can only do what the spirit of God tells it to. God has manifested Himself before in the burning bush in the presence of Moses. You would be in grave error to say that God was a burning bush because God was in the burning bush.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

This is a problem with the English language. We do not have a seperate word for the spirit of man and although we have the word mankind for men and women often as not man is used as an expression of both.

so you are not gonna answer my questions.

God is not the flesh.

who said God is flesh. you say God is Jesus, Jesus was a man, for Allah does not pray to himself he does not pray to himself

The flesh eats food,drinks and goes to the bathroom.

Jesus did all that so Jesus is flesh. So if he is flesh. Also all these things are what Allah orders man to submit to unconciously. Try to make yourself not eat or drink or go to the bathroom. you cannot. The divine intangible that makes us submissive to our own human nature ie. the will of Allah. You cannot stop it. Besides the flesh is an extention of your own bodies capacity and abiltity. If he, Jesus, was God, he would not had to succumb to this human nature for he would have been the source of it. Allah created it and everything is under is dominion.

The spirit of God is in control of the flesh in the same way that the spirit of man is in control of the flesh.

so if God was in control of the flesh why did God not have his Godly attributes extended from the flesh. the Mighty, the All Wise, the One Free of Needs, the One who answers Prayer, the Master and Judge, the Sustainer, the Preserver, the Majestic, The All Knowing, The Most Compassionate, the Most Gracious.

The flesh can't decide to be a man, it can only do what a man tells it to do. In Jesus the flesh is not God it can only do what the spirit of God tells it to. God has manifested Himself before in the burning bush in the presence of Moses. You would be in grave error to say that God was a burning bush because God was in the burning bush.

Maybe you misunderstood I asked you some very explicit questions

who was Jesus talking to on the cross if he was Allah?

Who when he taught the disciples the Lords Prayer they were talking to?

How is Jesus going to the Father in heaven when God is already standing there before everyone?

Who is this Father that Jesus says is GREATER THEN HE? Who?

where in the bible does God or jesus support any of this ideology. bring me an evidence.

And please try and answer the questions.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Now it is time for you to lay out your cards on the lexicon. Apple pie says he has the lexicon. You say you have another. Reveal yours in reference to 171 because you can prove nothing to me by saying you have this hidden lexicon in your mind that no one can see. I think you are having delusions about a lexicon that doesn't exist.

If you have a different lexicon and can show it, what makes your lexicon superior and why are there more than one to begin with?

You're not paying attention. I never said I had a mysterious lexicon. In fact E.W Lane used various lexicons to compile his. Now pay attention because this is what I said.

"NONE of the other verses I have posted can be disputed because the lexicons and the arabic dictionaries will not allow you to translate it any other way."

Which means, considering the arabic language, you will not be able to take ANY lexicon or ANY arabic dictionary to make ANY of the verses that say Allah has no son, Allah has no equal, to say anything to the contrary.

2:116
And THEY say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth; all obey His will --

10:68
THEY say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! He is All-sufficient; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; you have no authority for this. What, do you say concerning God that you know not?

17:111
And say: 'Praise belongs to GOD HAS NOT TAKEN A SON, and who has not any associate in the Kingdom, nor any protector out of humbleness.' And magnify Him with repeated magnificats.

18:4
and to warn those who say, 'God has taken to Himself a son';

19:35
It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He but says to it 'Be,' and it is.

19:88, 89, 91,92
And THEY say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.
You have indeed advanced something hideous!
that THEY have attributed to the All-merciful a son;
and it behoves not the All-merciful to take a son.

23:91
God has not taken to Himself any son, nor is there any god with Him; for then each god would have taken off that he created and some of them would have risen up over others; glory to be God, beyond that they describe,

72:3
He -- exalted be our Lord's majesty! has not taken to Himself either consort or a son.

Observe 2:116. This comes before 4:171. This is why I explained to Apple pie that he was taking it out of context, misunderstanding and mis-translating the ayah he presented. ALL of the surrounding surahs say the opposite of what he asserted. If you take out a snip that says "he has a son" and it is out of context then surely it can mean anything you want it to. but when it is read in its proper context with the rest of the Surahs then only one conclusion can be made....Allah has no son, no equal, no partner....etc.....

My last challenge was for him to prove the surrounding ayahs to be mistranslated by the many credited scholars and as you can see we have not heard back from him on this. I have warned you before...Stay off his bandwagon. I have been around for years watching him go to forum, to forum, to forum with the same old tired comments. He is not an accredited scholar. So for him to make such a claim and a translation like that is nonsense. He is the only one translating it that way and interpreting that way. He could find no accredited scholar/linguist that would support his position because (indeed) the lexicon he uses or any arabic dictionary will never let him translate the other ayahs to say Allah has a son, Allah has taken a son, Allah has an associate in the kingdom...etc.....

Case in point. Here is one of the ways he (Apple Pie) used Lane's lexicon to try and get it to fit his theory. He goes into this whole thing about how Jesus was not created by picking and choosing rendered words to make it appear that the scriptures are backing him up.

(http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Jesus_was_not_created

عِندَ اللّهِ is generally best rendered: in the estimation, or sight of Allah. Sometimes it denotes comparison. Not alone.
References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 2170 - 2172 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 391

(Apple Pie)

This was in response to a conversation we had at the following link.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33018&page=31

The scholar I used was one that he cited that seemed to, in his opinion, agree with him. He seemed to not have done the homework to find out who this scholar was so I did. I discovered that this same scholar used E.W. Lane's Lexicon to translate the Quran and every quote that I gave Apple Pie was from a translation of this scholars' work. He, Apple Pie, began to disagree with me. WHY......?????.....This was a scholar HE CITED.....

It's because it wasn't what he wanted to hear. He began to realize this scholar wasn't in agreement with him. in fact, the very quotes above (in red) that I have used are from that scholars translation of the Quran from the Classical Arabic language.

observe:

Arberry
3:59
Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was.

Apple Pie
3:59
Certainly Jesus' similitude with“allah”, as/like Adam, He created him out of dust then said to him: "Be thou." so (he) is.

There's nothing wrong with it other than the interpretation given by him at the link above. He said I wasn't even close. But look.....Arberry says (In God's sight) and Apple Pie said (with God)... Apple Pie was trying to prove that this was to be interpreted as Jesus was equal to/with Allah and this isn't true.

This is why Arberry translated it as (in God's sight). This translation is in accordance with Lane's lexicon. View the highlighted green text above.

Becareful. You are falling into the same trap he put himself in. When it comes to the Quran it is an easy read and one does not have to over analyze or over think what is being said. It certainly isn't hard to understand.

 

[Muffled]

You're not paying attention. I never said I had a mysterious lexicon. In fact E.W Lane used various lexicons to compile his. Now pay attention because this is what I said.

I do my best to pay attention. I assume from what you are saying that you believe the lexicon of E.W. Lane to be authoritative. I am sure that the finished translation is one that you approve of. What I am asking you to do is show the lexicon for each word in the passage. That is what Apple Pie did. Whether or not he is correct, depends on the authority of the lexicon that He is using. We can go into the subject of authority as the need areises.

I have seen too many fairy stories by Muslims to put much credence in anything a Muslim says unless he can prove it.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I do my best to pay attention. I assume from what you are saying that you believe the lexicon of E.W. Lane to be authoritative. I am sure that the finished translation is one that you approve of. What I am asking you to do is show the lexicon for each word in the passage. That is what Apple Pie did. Whether or not he is correct, depends on the authority of the lexicon that He is using. We can go into the subject of authority as the need areises.

I have seen too many fairy stories by Muslims to put much credence in anything a Muslim says unless he can prove it.

Here's the problem. The Classical Arabic is written with no marks. Apple Pie says it is written as a continous stream. That's the problem with reading the classical arabic. Muhammed's followers committed the quran to memory. They all were engaged in battle back then. They began to write the quran down. When they did this it was written with no charaters to define the break in thought. Observe:


4:171 (Classical Arabic)
يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابنمريم رسول الله وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله ورسله ولا تقولواثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في السموت ومافي الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا


4:171
People of the book go not beyond the bounds in your religion and say not as to God but the truth the Messiah Jesus son of Mary was only the messenger of God and his word that he committed to Mary and a Spirit from him so believe in God and his messengers and say not three refrain better is it for you God is only One God glory be to him he has a son to him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth God suffices for a guardian.

When one reads arabic or one is reciting the quran it may appear to the un-trained ear or one who does not know the arabic language that the recitation is continuous but that is not true. There are pauses and breaks. If you read the above translation it is quite confusing because there is no cohesion. It is nearly impossible to take the other surahs that have longer ayahs and try to read them without the marks. You'd probably pass out trying to catch your breath. Additionally, I believe it was Muhammed's followers who later added the marks to show the breaks.

That line (he has a son) appears to be a rhetorical question followed by the answer (to him belongs all that is in the heavens and earth).

Observe:

I pointed out 2:116. I did that because it come before 4:171 and basically repeats what I've been saying.

2:116
And THEY say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth; all obey His will --

The other surah that wraps around 4:171 is 10:68 and it is a repeat.

10:68
THEY say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! He is All-sufficient; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; you have no authority for this. What, do you say concerning God that you know not?

This is showing that NO....Allah doesn't have a son but all that in the heavens and the earth belong to Allah.

This is what I have been trying to get you and Apple Pie to understand. The quran is not hard to follow. He got cought up on one particular part of a verse in the quran without reading all of its connected parts. They all compliment each other. They all show that is was the people (chrisitans) who said Allah has a son. The quran says not to do this and we read that there is a warning that the people should not say this but ALL that is in the heavens and the earth belong to Allah.

This is why Apple Pie was not taken seriously. He takes these things out of context to try and make them mean something that they don't. This is why I've posted all the ayahs. I've read them all and I know the context as well as the meaning.

 

[Muffled]

Here's the problem. The Classical Arabic is written with no marks. Apple Pie says it is written as a continous stream. That's the problem with reading the classical arabic. Muhammed's followers committed the quran to memory. They all were engaged in battle back then. They began to write the quran down. When they did this it was written with no charaters to define the break in thought. Observe:


4:171 (Classical Arabic)
يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابنمريم رسول الله وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله ورسله ولا تقولواثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في السموت ومافي الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا


4:171
People of the book go not beyond the bounds in your religion and say not as to God but the truth the Messiah Jesus son of Mary was only the messenger of God and his word that he committed to Mary and a Spirit from him so believe in God and his messengers and say not three refrain better is it for you God is only One God glory be to him he has a son to him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth God suffices for a guardian.

When one reads arabic or one is reciting the quran it may appear to the un-trained ear or one who does not know the arabic language that the recitation is continuous but that is not true. There are pauses and breaks. If you read the above translation it is quite confusing because there is no cohesion. It is nearly impossible to take the other surahs that have longer ayahs and try to read them without the marks. You'd probably pass out trying to catch your breath. Additionally, I believe it was Muhammed's followers who later added the marks to show the breaks.

That line (he has a son) appears to be a rhetorical question followed by the answer (to him belongs all that is in the heavens and earth).

Observe:

I pointed out 2:116. I did that because it come before 4:171 and basically repeats what I've been saying.

2:116
And THEY say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth; all obey His will --

The other surah that wraps around 4:171 is 10:68 and it is a repeat.

10:68
THEY say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! He is All-sufficient; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; you have no authority for this. What, do you say concerning God that you know not?

This is showing that NO....Allah doesn't have a son but all that in the heavens and the earth belong to Allah.

This is what I have been trying to get you and Apple Pie to understand. The quran is not hard to follow. He got cought up on one particular part of a verse in the quran without reading all of its connected parts. They all compliment each other. They all show that is was the people (chrisitans) who said Allah has a son. The quran says not to do this and we read that there is a warning that the people should not say this but ALL that is in the heavens and the earth belong to Allah.

This is why Apple Pie was not taken seriously. He takes these things out of context to try and make them mean something that they don't. This is why I've posted all the ayahs. I've read them all and I know the context as well as the meaning.

What you are saying then is that Apple Pie has the correct translation.

There is no doubt in my mind that your interpretation of the statement is speculative in nature and not derived from the text. In the light of the Biblical account your interpretation doesn't hold water.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

What you are saying then is that Apple Pie has the correct translation.

Not at all. The best thing he did was to find modern arabic script without the diacratical markings and post them for all of to see. The script back them was much different. Not that it matters. There was various script of arabic including the kufic script.

Arberry, used E.W. Lane's lexicon when he translated the quran into english. He did this using the Classical Arabic. In his translation he took his time to understand the context of 4:171 and that is why it is coherent when read. Arberry was a scholar and a better luinguist in arabic then Apple Pie will ever hope to be. This is evident from the translations below.


Apple Pie
4.171 You The Book's family, certainly do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and certainly they say against “allah” except the truth , only the Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, a message ; “allah” and his word cast forth to her Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe on account of “allah”, and His messengers, and certainly they say: "Three." Refrain (it is) agreeable certainly your only “allah”one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his child, truly his; what not in the heavens and not in the earth and He sufficed on account of “allah”, a witness.


Arberry
People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- He has a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian.

Apple Pie's version border lines on mere uttereance. It's kind of garbled and incoherent. Let me know if you actually understand the context after you read it. You really can't. You begin to get the felling that the person making the translation is certainly NOT a linguist and has no buisiness translating anything. on the other hand reading Arberry's translation you get a good understanding of what is being said.

Apple Pie said that the classical arabic was a continous thought but as you can tell in his translation he made the distinction as to where the pauses and beginning and ending of the sentences should be. This is why when I translated the script with no markings in to english I left out markings and as you can clearly read...it doesn't make sense. You have to have the markings.

There is no doubt in my mind that your interpretation of the statement is speculative in nature and not derived from the text.

And yet you nor Apple Pie are in a position to discredit the surrounding surahs. I have given them all and begged to be disproved. I have not been so far. As you read Arberry's translation and ANY other scholar that has translated from the Classical Arabic you will notice that they form that part of 4:171 as a rhetorical question that is answered by (to him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth). You both keep skipping over this fact. The quran repeats this so that you would understand if you had doubts.

2:116
And THEY say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth; all obey His will --

4:171 (in part)
Glory be to Him -- He has a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian.

10:68
THEY say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! He is All-sufficient; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; you have no authority for this. What, do you say concerning God that you know not?


This is the propper context which Apple Pie ignored.

In the light of the Biblical account your interpretation doesn't hold water.

Ahhhhh, but this particular thread isn't talking about the bible. It's dealing with the quran only.

 

[wizanda]

The problem is not if a son of God……..
The problem is the books and especially the gospel of John Nicodemus – (Nicolaitans) which is made up and he said “the only begotten son of God” how does anything get begotten?
If all is God’s to begin with…it shows a complete lack of respect for both the Jewish laws and then reiterated in the Quran again….
Really wish Mohammed had gone to Rome after the canonization of the Bible and not the Jewish, who still don’t understand what is being spoken about, as they also refused to read the new testament.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The problem is not if a son of God……..
The problem is the books and especially the gospel of John Nicodemus – (Nicolaitans) which is made up and he said “the only begotten son of God” how does anything get begotten?
If all is God’s to begin with…it shows a complete lack of respect for both the Jewish laws and then reiterated in the Quran again….
Really wish Mohammed had gone to Rome after the canonization of the Bible and not the Jewish, who still don’t understand what is being spoken about, as they also refused to read the new testament.

I tend to agree.

In this thread we keep spinning our wheels.

I have challenged those who seem to believe that 4:171 is litterally stating that Allah has a son to prove all of the surahs to be mistranslated. The statement in 4:171 is rhetorical. Right after that question the answer follows.

Observe: (example of a biblical rhetorical question)

Romans 3:7
For if the truth of Jesus hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

As you know from the other thread I thought he (Paul) was seriously saying he was not telling the truth but others pointed out that this is a rhetorical question.

This in the case with Quran 4:171. Every arabic speaking person I show the Classical Arabic to says that it is rhetorical because of the surah 2:116 and surah 10:68. This is my position as well. These surahs wrap around 4:171 incase some one has doubts.

As you can see the OP who started all of this is LONG gone. Back track a little and you will see that he left when he was being challenged on those very surahs that proved his position void. Visit his wikiislam and you will be amazed of the bias they spew. All of the translations there and none of it was done by anyone qualified or learned in the language. None of it is verified by any scholar or lunguist of the arabic language (at least no one living). Most or all are from books of yesteryear.

Now everyone else that comes after him riding his (Apple Pie) coat tail is just nit-picking without being able to refute what I have posted. I'll keep this thread going for as long as they want me too.

 

[Muffled]

Not at all. The best thing he did was to find modern arabic script without the diacratical markings and post them for all of to see. The script back them was much different. Not that it matters. There was various script of arabic including the kufic script.

Arberry, used E.W. Lane's lexicon when he translated the quran into english. He did this using the Classical Arabic. In his translation he took his time to understand the context of 4:171 and that is why it is coherent when read. Arberry was a scholar and a better luinguist in arabic then Apple Pie will ever hope to be. This is evident from the translations below.


Apple Pie
4.171 You The Book's family, certainly do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and certainly they say against “allah” except the truth , only the Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, a message ; “allah” and his word cast forth to her Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe on account of “allah”, and His messengers, and certainly they say: "Three." Refrain (it is) agreeable certainly your only “allah”one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his child, truly his; what not in the heavens and not in the earth and He sufficed on account of “allah”, a witness.


Arberry
People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- He has a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian.

Apple Pie's version border lines on mere uttereance. It's kind of garbled and incoherent. Let me know if you actually understand the context after you read it. You really can't. You begin to get the felling that the person making the translation is certainly NOT a linguist and has no buisiness translating anything. on the other hand reading Arberry's translation you get a good understanding of what is being said.

Apple Pie said that the classical arabic was a continous thought but as you can tell in his translation he made the distinction as to where the pauses and beginning and ending of the sentences should be. This is why when I translated the script with no markings in to english I left out markings and as you can clearly read...it doesn't make sense. You have to have the markings.



And yet you nor Apple Pie are in a position to discredit the surrounding surahs. I have given them all and begged to be disproved. I have not been so far. As you read Arberry's translation and ANY other scholar that has translated from the Classical Arabic you will notice that they form that part of 4:171 as a rhetorical question that is answered by (to him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth). You both keep skipping over this fact. The quran repeats this so that you would understand if you had doubts.

2:116
And THEY say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth; all obey His will --

4:171 (in part)
Glory be to Him -- He has a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian.

10:68
THEY say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! He is All-sufficient; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; you have no authority for this. What, do you say concerning God that you know not?


This is the propper context which Apple Pie ignored.





Ahhhhh, but this particular thread isn't talking about the bible. It's dealing with the quran only.

This is what Apple pie said about this: yakoona lahu waladun…

…certainly your only “allah” one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son…

All pronouns have a previous reference. In this case the previous reference to "He" is Allah. It can't be a referrence to Jesus because that is too far back. So it is still what God told me it is. Allah is His son.

In all cases the intent is to show that God does not have a separate son that is another God as would be suggested by the Doctrine of the Trinity (Three). This is also rehashed in the verse that says: Mary and Jesus never said they were a god. (Not an exact quote) Again there is this concept of a god separate from Allah which Jesus is not. He is Allah in the flesh which I now have a thread for.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

This is also rehashed in the verse that says: Mary and Jesus never said they were a god. (Not an exact quote) Again there is this concept of a god separate from Allah which Jesus is not.

Before that verse and up to it Jesus is asking God for something and God ask Jesus if he made himself or his mother to be gods and Jesus said he had no authority to do something he had no right to do and if he did God would surely know.

5:112
And when the Apostles said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, is thy Lord able to send down on us a Table out of heaven?' He said, 'Fear you God, if you are believer

5:114
Said Jesus son of Mary, 'O God, our Lord, send down upon us a Table out of heaven, that shall be for us a festival, the first and last of us, and a sign from Thee. And provide for us; Thou art the best of providers.'

5:116
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said, 'To Thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen.

He is Allah in the flesh which I now have a thread for.

You are free to believe whatever you want but the quran does not agree with your assertion. It is plain and simple. The scripture is clear.

4:48
4:116
5:72
6:100
13:33

All of the above tell us Allah is not to be associated with anything but the one below tops it all off. Not only does it state Allah has no sone it tells us he has no associates. So once again, your claim of Jesus being Allah or God in the flesh is void because the quran is not in agreement with you. "Maybe" the NT is but not the quran.

And here's the clincher to it all;

17:111
And say: 'Praise belongs to God, who has not taken to Him a son, and who has not any associate in the Kingdom, nor any protector out of humbleness.' And magnify Him with repeated magnificats.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

This is what Apple pie said about this: yakoona lahu waladun…

…certainly your only “allah” one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son…

All pronouns have a previous reference. In this case the previous reference to "He" is Allah. It can't be a referrence to Jesus because that is too far back. So it is still what God told me it is. Allah is His son.

You are relying on his unqualified ability to translate the quran. The fact of the matter is the quran does not support anything you or Apple Pie are assuming. It is quite clear throughout the quran that God (is).

Jesus along with the rest of the others were Allah's messengers to their people. It is quite clear that Jesus is NOT the son of Allah and Allah has NO associates.


2:116
And THEY say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth; all obey His will

4:171
People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- He has a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian.


5:12
THEY indeed have disbelieved who say: Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things.

5:72
Certainly THEY disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

5:110
When God said, 'Jesus Son of Mary, remember My blessing upon thee and upon thy mother, when I confirmed thee with the Holy Spirit, to speak to men in the cradle, and of age; and when I taught thee the Book, the Wisdom, the Torah, the Gospel; and when thou createst out of clay, by My leave, as the likeness of a bird, and thou breathest into it, and it is a bird, by My leave; and thou healest the blind and the leper by My leave, and thou bringest the dead forth by My leave; and when restrained from thee the Children of Israel when thou camest unto them with the clear signs, and the unbelievers among them said, "This is nothing but sorcery manifest."

5:116
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?'He said, 'To Thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen

9:30
The Jews say, 'Ezra is the Son of God'; the Christians say, 'The Messiah is the Son of God.' That is the utterance of their mouths, conforming with the unbelievers before them. God assail them! How they are perverted!

10:68
THEY say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! He is All-sufficient; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; you have no authority for this. What, do you say concerning God that you know not?

In all cases the intent is to show that God does not have a separate son that is another God as would be suggested by the Doctrine of the Trinity (Three).

No. It clearely shows that God does not have a son period. Another verse in the quran tells us God has NO associates. The idea of any trinity (three as one concept) is void when concerning the quran.

 

[Muffled]

Before that verse and up to it Jesus is asking God for something and God ask Jesus if he made himself or his mother to be gods and Jesus said he had no authority to do something he had no right to do and if he did God would surely know.

5:112
And when the Apostles said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, is thy Lord able to send down on us a Table out of heaven?' He said, 'Fear you God, if you are believer

5:114
Said Jesus son of Mary, 'O God, our Lord, send down upon us a Table out of heaven, that shall be for us a festival, the first and last of us, and a sign from Thee. And provide for us; Thou art the best of providers.'

5:116
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said, 'To Thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen.





You are free to believe whatever you want but the quran does not agree with your assertion. It is plain and simple. The scripture is clear.

4:48
4:116
5:72
6:100
13:33

All of the above tell us Allah is not to be associated with anything but the one below tops it all off. Not only does it state Allah has no sone it tells us he has no associates. So once again, your claim of Jesus being Allah or God in the flesh is void because the quran is not in agreement with you. "Maybe" the NT is but not the quran.

And here's the clincher to it all;

17:111
And say: 'Praise belongs to God, who has not taken to Him a son, and who has not any associate in the Kingdom, nor any protector out of humbleness.' And magnify Him with repeated magnificats.

I fail to see the relevance of this statement. As far as I can see there is nothing in previous verses that denies the divinity of Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

You are relying on his unqualified ability to translate the quran. .

I have no other translation that points out word for word what the text says. Certainly you have ample opportunity to refute this but have not.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I fail to see the relevance of this statement. As far as I can see there is nothing in previous verses that denies the divinity of Jesus.

oh I see......

Well all I did was show you the verse in full, and it clearly showing Jesus clarifying his position. He is not God because he was talking to God. He is not a god because he told God he had no right to inform people of something he wasn't. As far as divinity, well I'll leave that up to people like you to assume such. But I stand firm that EVERYTHING Jesus did was by Allah's permission.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I have no other translation that points out word for word what the text says. Certainly you have ample opportunity to refute this but have not.

He did a great job presenting it but it was refuted. It was backed up by each and every ayah in various surahs that I presented that were translated from the Classical Arabic, using E.W. Lane's lexicon and by a noted and accredited scholar and linguist.

He could not produce ANY evidence to the contrary that proved that Allah has no son, Allah has not taken a son, Allah has no consort, Allah has no partner.........etc.....

When challenged on this he left the forum. He is now over at faithfreedom.org where he has been a member since 2004 with the same old same old subject......

 

[Alan Young]

Lets look at facts god would never begot a son, because god is not a man he is more than a man (He is bigger than time and space he is everywhere he would not give so much just to one man god is fair with his teachings) and god dosn't have DNA he controls DNA he can choose whom evers DNA he pleases to take the shape of a human baby inside the womb of mary, and the soul/spirit that he chooses for this task has to pure and strong to support this journey and indeed this spirit was right choice..

 

[Katzpur]

Lets look at facts

Okay, let's.

god would never begot a son, because god is not a man he is more than a man (He is bigger than time and space he is everywhere he would not give so much just to one man god is fair with his teachings) and god dosn't have DNA he controls DNA he can choose whom evers DNA he pleases to take the shape of a human baby inside the womb of mary, and the soul/spirit that he chooses for this task has to pure and strong to support this journey and indeed this spirit was right choice..

Very little of what you just said can be proven to be factual. I disagree with most of it, by the way, but since I can't prove my point of view, I'll simply state that it is my belief. You might want to consider doing that, too.

 

[Alan Young]

Read the ten commandments god would not contradict him self 2\ do not make any idols that includes jesus he was sent to teach us; not for us to idolise him. We only idolise (GOD) his creator and the creator of all things including humans which jesus was human gifted by god. Idolise 1\GOD alone The original ten rules do not forget what he writtin direct to stone for us to remember. I don't now if that will prove it god said it him self[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Katzpur]

Read the ten commandments

I've done that.

god would not contradict him self

I agree.

do not make any idols

Gotcha.

that includes jesus

Jesus is an idol?

he was sent to teach us;

Yes, that was part of His mission.

not for us to idolise him.

I worship Him, not a graven image of Him.

We only idolise his and the creator of all things including humans which jesus was human gifted by god.

I'm sorry, but I'm having a really hard time understanding you.

Idolise GOD alone

Again, I worship God, not a graven image of Him.

The original ten rule do not forget what he writtin direct to stone for us to remember.

Thanks. I'm quite aware of them.