Know One Knows Your Heart

[ChristineM]

Bible historians have worked to verify the history in the Bible and have done a good job. When it comes to verifying supernatural events it seems odd to demand that be by someone who does not believe

So just how are supernatural events verified. Certainly not in any scientific way so the only way i can see is confirmation bias

We are talking about Pantera being the biological father of Jesus aren't we? So that is a rumor started by Jews in maybe the late 1st or in the 2nd century and what evidence do you have to confirm the rumor other than a Roman soldier by that name who could have been in the country at the time.(a common name it seems).

Exactly the same evidence as you have for god dun it.

For sure? No, but the work of scholars has shown we have what is close to the original. The New Testament is better attested than most historical writings which we accept.

Again, without evidence all you have is confirmation bias

 

[Brian2]

So just how are supernatural events verified. Certainly not in any scientific way so the only way i can see is confirmation bias

We all have confirmation bias for our beliefs and those we wish to not believe. At least there are things that can confirm those beliefs for us. On the other side there is confirmation bias based on the assumption that supernatural is unreal and that witnesses must have been lying so we cannot accept what they say (especially when they believe what they say happened).

Exactly the same evidence as you have for god dun it.

The evidence from those who were there and who know the story from others who were there is better than rumours made up years later with no link to anything but a desire to discredit Jesus and the gospel.

Again, without evidence all you have is confirmation bias

I would say that it is a faith that is supported by scholarship and evidence.

 

[ChristineM]

. At least there are things that can confirm those beliefs for us.

Please, please, please provide info on these things that confirm the, by definition unconfirmable

and that witnesses must have been lying

Or peehaps those who claimed to have documented the witnesses statements. Some few hundred years later were lying?

I would of course like to see witness statements.

The evidence from those who were there and who know the story from others who were there is better than rumours made up years later with no link to anything but a desire to discredit Jesus and the gospel.

The rumours of those who the bible (and nothing else) claims to have been there and second hand rumours are nit evidence. Your belief is your belief and evidence of circular evidence is not going to change those beliefs, nor would i want to. My beliefs are based on resrarch and knowledge of Roman jurisdiction, occupation, and tactics.

I would say that it is a faith that is supported by scholarship and evidence.

I know you would, i wouldn't though.

 

[Brian2]

Please, please, please provide info on these things that confirm the, by definition unconfirmable

For me the evidence that the New Testament and Gospels were written in the first century and by those who knew the events confirm the stories. Evidence that witnesses would rather die than deny the events also confirm the stories for me.
This confirmation is added to when I see that the Gospel stories actually fulfil OT prophecy. (sort of like a secondary confirmation, or a confirmation once removed)

Or peehaps those who claimed to have documented the witnesses statements. Some few hundred years later were lying?

I would of course like to see witness statements.

The witness statements I refer to are the gospels.

The rumours of those who the bible (and nothing else) claims to have been there and second hand rumours are nit evidence. Your belief is your belief and evidence of circular evidence is not going to change those beliefs, nor would i want to. My beliefs are based on resrarch and knowledge of Roman jurisdiction, occupation, and tactics.

We are talking about Pantera here aren't we. I don't know how your beliefs about that or the gospels not being true can be based on knowledge of Roman jurisdiction, occupation and tactics.
Historians who believe also have this knowledge, so you don't know anything that is not known by them.

I know you would, i wouldn't though.

There is certainly serious scholarship involved that gives evidence and there is other non scholarly evidence, but based on history so that cannot be denied. All you can really say is that you disagree with those scholars and their conclusions and prefer other more acceptable scholarship.
We all have confirmation bias and most of us find it hard to see it in ourselves, or ignore it as being OK because what we believe is true.

 

[ChristineM]

For me the evidence that the New Testament and Gospels were written in the first century and by those who knew the events confirm the stories

Jolly good. But you cannot confirm the authenticity nor whether having been editing at a later date. Which given the disparity in the gospels seems very likely.

The witness statements I refer to are the gospels.

See above

We are talking about Pantera here aren't we. I don't know how your beliefs about that or the gospels not being true can be based on knowledge of Roman jurisdiction, occupation and tactics.

You don't? That described in gospels does not agree with the reality that was Roman governance.

All you can really say is that you disagree with those scholars and their conclusions and prefer other more acceptable scholarship.

Correct, plus my own research into Rome of +/- 100 yeara of the fall of republic/rise of empire which incidentally included the problems of the occupation of Judea. The Flavian dynasty is extremely interesting to me.

 

[Brian2]

Jolly good. But you cannot confirm the authenticity nor whether having been editing at a later date. Which given the disparity in the gospels seems very likely.

The authenticity comes from the use of them by the early church and others and the number of copies from various places and the quotes from apostolic fathers etc have enables scholars to pin point definite and probably additions and alterations. This sort of stuff is reflected in more modern translations. Interestingly the disparities in the gospels and/or what look like disparities can be evidence of the reports coming from different people who were there instead of a collaboration.

You don't? That described in gospels does not agree with the reality that was Roman governance.

How so?

Correct, plus my own research into Rome of +/- 100 yeara of the fall of republic/rise of empire which incidentally included the problems of the occupation of Judea. The Flavian dynasty is extremely interesting to me.

I know everything about Rome because I studied Latin at school for a few years and I have seen a number of movies about the the times. Cleopatra, Gladiator and The Three Stooges Meet Hercules.

 

[Thief]

How can I judge myself. We both find that out about ourselves and maybe each other after we are dead.

I can tell the difference
why can't you?

we know better....a great many things
and abide accordingly

as for passing penalty and consequence
that would be after the last breath

 

[Brian2]

I can tell the difference
why can't you?

we know better....a great many things
and abide accordingly

as for passing penalty and consequence
that would be after the last breath

I believe in Jesus and try to live accordingly and know I fail miserably at times and don't know my motivations at other times even when I have not failed miserably. I have trouble with the assurance of salvation part of the New Testament, it's just a personal thing and it gets better every time I manage to overcome a long term sin, but of course another one always appears then as top priority for me.
At times it feels like I am trying to earn my way to salvation through works while knowing that is not going to happen.
I guess in the end I have to come back to faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the cross and rest in that and hope that I am not like the guy whom Jesus is judging who said "Lord I cast out demons and prophesied and did many wonderful works in your name" only to hear Jesus say that He did not know them.
So the idea is to let my faith work love through me.
What can I say really. I feel confident that I am heading in the right direction and hope my heart and actions are seen as OK when the judgement comes.

 

[Thief]

I believe in Jesus and try to live accordingly and know I fail miserably at times and don't know my motivations at other times even when I have not failed miserably. I have trouble with the assurance of salvation part of the New Testament, it's just a personal thing and it gets better every time I manage to overcome a long term sin, but of course another one always appears then as top priority for me.
At times it feels like I am trying to earn my way to salvation through works while knowing that is not going to happen.
I guess in the end I have to come back to faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the cross and rest in that and hope that I am not like the guy whom Jesus is judging who said "Lord I cast out demons and prophesied and did many wonderful works in your name" only to hear Jesus say that He did not know them.
So the idea is to let my faith work love through me.
What can I say really. I feel confident that I am heading in the right direction and hope my heart and actions are seen as OK when the judgement comes.

how strange....

you post of self doubt
but then of confidence and hope

two sides of the same coin?

 

[Brian2]

how strange....

you post of self doubt
but then of confidence and hope

two sides of the same coin?

Just answering your question and trying to be a bit honest about it,,,,,,,,,,,,,as per usual of course.
It is interesting in the scriptures when I seem to be told not to doubt, especially in prayer.
It is a good suggestion but I cannot do that through an effort of will.
Some scriptures are hard to understand.

 

[Thief]

Some scriptures are hard to understand.

and even wen the understanding is so seemingly apparent

have you considered?.....Our Father

whose Father?
yours?
mine?
brothers are we?

and we stand between heaven and the devil as we recite the prayer

seems the Carpenter has placed a hook in our ears
and another in our lips

He must have been a fisherman on the side

 

[Brian2]

and even wen the understanding is so seemingly apparent

have you considered?.....Our Father

whose Father?
yours?
mine?
brothers are we?

and we stand between heaven and the devil as we recite the prayer

seems the Carpenter has placed a hook in our ears
and another in our lips

He must have been a fisherman on the side

Maybe I am and should be moving to an acceptance of what it written in some of those apparently easy to understand verses, instead of trying to twist the meaning so suite me. Sort of like still between heaven and the devil but closer to heaven.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm still repelled by the thread's title.

 

[Brian2]

I'm still repelled by the thread's title.

Do you mean that you don't like the idea that we are truly alone and unknown fully in the world?

 

[Revoltingest]

Do you mean that you don't like the idea that we are truly alone and unknown fully in the world?

@Thief purposely spelled "No" as "Know" just to annoy me.
He's miffed cuz I spell "toolmaker" as "machinist".

 

[Thief]

@Thief purposely spelled "No" as "Know" just to annoy me.
He's miffed cuz I spell "toolmaker" as "machinist".

well.....know

the title was a typo

but that it annoys you....
heheheheheheh

 

[Brian2]

Injured left hand & left shoulder rule out combat.
But appetizers....I'm up for that.

Not only that but also what does the OP mean?
Does it mean that nobody will know you after your final breathe or that others will also know you then?
I don't know why he would be annoyed that you misspelt toolmaker as machinist, it is an easy mistake to make.