Killing in War - Ok or Not?

[McBell]

There is no truth in propaganda.

Ouch.
So how do you reconcile this claim of "no truth in propaganda" with your and your church's propaganda?

 

[Sleeppy]

so much for honesty....

Honesty may, or may not, serve a particular ethical purpose. Correct? -- Critical thinking is important. Wisdom is important.

 

[McBell]

Honesty may, or may not, serve a particular ethical purpose. Correct? -- Critical thinking is important. Wisdom is important.

So your god has no problem with lying under certain circumstances?

 

[Sleeppy]

So your god has no problem with lying under certain circumstances?

Good for a new thread topic. I say no. God withholds information; we lie to and among ourselves.

Withholding information, and presenting false information are confused with one another, but factually different.

A good topic for your new thread is God's command to sacrifice Isaac.

 

[McBell]

Good for a new thread topic. I say no. God withholds information; we lie to and among ourselves.

Withholding information, and presenting false information are confused with one another, but factually different.

A good topic for your new thread is God's command to sacrifice Isaac.

Withholding information is still lying.

 

[Sleeppy]

Withholding information is still lying.

No it's not.

 

[McBell]

No it's not.

Yes it is.
Lying about deception.
If you withhold information in an attempt to deceive, you are in fact lying.

It matters not that every word out of your mouth is the truth, if you present them in a manner to deceive, you are lying.

 

[Revoltingest]

Does anyone else continually read "Klingon" instead of "Killing" in the title? I just can't stop seeing that.

 

[roger1440]

Any examples of self-defense in the New Testament?

Not sure. There are no examples of people scratching there rear end, but that means nothing.

 

[Sleeppy]

Yes it is.
Lying about deception.
If you withhold information in an attempt to deceive, you are in fact lying.

It matters not that every word out of your mouth is the truth, if you present them in a manner to deceive, you are lying.

There's that confusion I mentioned earlier.

Withholding information is not the same as presenting false information. In the case of the swords, the carriers did not lie, nor did they necessitate deception. Carrying a sword with no intention of offensive action is not a lie (or presentation of false information), and it is not necessarily a deception. The deception originates with the preconception of the observer, which falsely believes that swords must only be used offensively. If you had no such preconception, you would not deceive yourself with information not being proven.

 

[Sleeppy]

Not sure. There are no examples of people scratching there rear end, but that means nothing.

Not a proportional analogy. The NT presents cause for violent offensive measures, alongside peaceful surrender, and/or martyrdom. There is no presentation of cause for scratching one's rear end.

 

[JayJayDee]

Ouch.
So how do you reconcile this claim of "no truth in propaganda" with your and your church's propaganda?

Propaganda works.....it's been conning humans since Eden.

If you believe in God and that he authored the Bible, (and I know you don't) there are only two sources of information...God and his adversary.
God dispenses truth, whereas the devil dispenses propaganda.

Humans are easy to fool, we are naturally trusting....but it doesn't take much disappointment to turn us into disbelieving cynics. Once we discern that we have been treated like 'mushrooms' and fed only what 'the powers that be' want us to hear, we then understand what a powerful tool 'perception management' is in the wrong hands. They know exactly how to get you to believe them. The whole advertising industry depends on it. Got a product to sell? Demonize the opposition and make your product the obvious choice.....it works.

I guess its up to us as individuals to discern between what is true and what isn't. Propaganda is falsehood dressed up as truth, designed to direct humans along a certain way of thinking. It doesn't matter what they are trying to sell, it all has the same outcome. You buy it. The source of the propaganda is one way to tell because these will have used it well throughout their existence.

The organization to which I belong has no "power" over us, any more than the first century followers of Christ had over them. God's laws and principles are recorded in the scriptures...they are not negotiable. Any organization that claims to follow Christ's teachings will not add to them nor pick and choose what they will or will not do. It's an all or nothing deal. Cherry picking won't cut it.

As one who came out of Christendom, I can see what the difference is, and the fact that it was foretold that in the "time of the end" God would supply an abundance of knowledge and clean things up concerning his worship. I see it in my global brotherhood.

I see only one organization known for their persistent preaching "in all the inhabited earth" with one message and one teaching not only from congregation to congregation, but from country to country. No one shares the unity that we have. We are not perfect, but we try hard. And we will not be goaded into violence and war by nationalism. (Isa 2:2-4)

We don't have to convince anyone of the truthfulness of what we believe.
God is the one who draws people to his truth. (John 6:44)

Faith is not the possession of all people. No one is forced to believe.

 

[McBell]

There's that confusion I mentioned earlier.

Withholding information is not the same as presenting false information. In the case of the swords, the carriers did not lie, nor did they necessitate deception. Carrying a sword with no intention of offensive action is not a lie (or presentation of false information), and it is not necessarily a deception. The deception originates with the preconception of the observer, which falsely believes that swords must only be used offensively. If you had no such preconception, you would not deceive yourself with information not being proven.

If the purpose of carrying the sword is to prey on the "preconception" then it is a lie.

 

[McBell]

Propaganda works.....it's been conning humans since Eden.

If you believe in God and that he authored the Bible, (and I know you don't) there are only two sources of information...God and his adversary.
God dispenses truth, whereas the devil dispenses propaganda.

Humans are easy to fool, we are naturally trusting....but it doesn't take much disappointment to turn us into disbelieving cynics. Once we discern that we have been treated like 'mushrooms' and fed only what 'the powers that be' want us to hear, we then understand what a powerful tool 'perception management' is in the wrong hands. They know exactly how to get you to believe them. The whole advertising industry depends on it. Got a product to sell? Demonize the opposition and make your product the obvious choice.....it works.

I guess its up to us as individuals to discern between what is true and what isn't. Propaganda is falsehood dressed up as truth, designed to direct humans along a certain way of thinking. It doesn't matter what they are trying to sell, it all has the same outcome. You buy it. The source of the propaganda is one way to tell because these will have used it well throughout their existence.

The organization to which I belong has no "power" over us, any more than the first century followers of Christ had over them. God's laws and principles are recorded in the scriptures...they are not negotiable. Any organization that claims to follow Christ's teachings will not add to them nor pick and choose what they will or will not do. It's an all or nothing deal. Cherry picking won't cut it.

As one who came out of Christendom, I can see what the difference is, and the fact that it was foretold that in the "time of the end" God would supply an abundance of knowledge and clean things up concerning his worship. I see it in my global brotherhood.

I see only one organization known for their persistent preaching "in all the inhabited earth" with one message and one teaching not only from congregation to congregation, but from country to country. No one shares the unity that we have. We are not perfect, but we try hard. And we will not be goaded into violence and war by nationalism. (Isa 2:2-4)

We don't have to convince anyone of the truthfulness of what we believe.
God is the one who draws people to his truth. (John 6:44)

Faith is not the possession of all people. No one is forced to believe.

Define propaganda

The definition I am using:

information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.​

Please note that the definition does not say that the information has to be biased or misleading.

Thus meaning that you are not correct when you claim:

There is no truth in propaganda.​

 

[Sleeppy]

If the purpose of carrying the sword is to prey on the "preconception" then it is a lie.

Nope. Taking advantage of self-deception is not lying.

 

[JayJayDee]

Define propaganda

The definition I am using:

information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.​

Please note that the definition does not say that the information has to be biased or misleading.

And yet what is the aim of propaganda? To create bias and to mislead.

How does one discern the difference between something that is designed to look like truth and something that is actual truth? We usually look for what sits well with our own perspective....don't we?

How do the advertising agencies and marketing gurus convince the public to buy a certain product? Do they lie outright?....or do they just twist the truth so that their product seems to be the one that outdoes all the inferior competition?

Thus meaning that you are not correct when you claim:

There is no truth in propaganda.

There is truth....but it is skewed in order to mislead. There is just enough to make it easy to swallow. "A spoonful of sugar"....you know.

A twisted half truth can be more devastating than the actual truth. Ask any judge in a court of law......one side sounds so convincing until you hear the other side. Imagine trying to weigh the truth in that situation?

We have enough information today on the net to make our decisions about spiritual matters with both sides of the story. We can evaluate what people say and take their views on board. But at the end of the day, it is we who determine our own destiny by the choices we make.

The devil has made sure that the choices are a little overwhelming.
His most clever ruse is to convince people that he doesn't exist.

​

 

[McBell]

And yet what is the aim of propaganda? To create bias and to mislead.

Really?
Is that your purpose in using it?

How does one discern the difference between something that is designed to look like truth and something that is actual truth? We usually look for what sits well with our own perspective....don't we?

Yes, most people look to ratify, truth and facts be damned.

How do the advertising agencies and marketing gurus convince the public to buy a certain product? Do they lie outright?....or do they just twist the truth so that their product seems to be the one that outdoes all the inferior competition?

So, are you out right lying or are you merely twisting the truth?

There is truth....but it is skewed in order to mislead. There is just enough to make it easy to swallow. "A spoonful of sugar"....you know.

A twisted half truth can be more devastating that the actual truth. Ask any judge in a court of law......one side sounds so convincing until you hear the other side. Imagine trying to weigh the truth in that situation?

We have enough information today on the net to make our decisions about spiritual matters with both sides of the story. We can evaluate what people say and take their views on board. But at the end of the day, it is we who determine our own destiny by the choices we make.

The devil has made sure that the choices are a little overwhelming.
His most clever ruse is to convince people that he doesn't exist.

Now you seem to be wandering all over the place.

The fact of the matter is that propaganda is not always the lies you claim it to be.

Or are you admitting to lying when you propagandize your religious beliefs?

 

[McBell]

Nope. Taking advantage of self-deception is not lying.

I am not the least bit surprised finding a dishonest person claiming that dishonesty is not dishonest.

 

[Sleeppy]

I am not the least bit surprised finding a dishonest person claiming that dishonesty is not dishonest.

If you aren't able to prove your point, move on. You couldn't prove your point before, so you waited for another opportunity to prove another. Wait for the next opportunity, as well. Maybe you'll have better luck.

 

[Sleeppy]

I am not the least bit surprised finding a dishonest person claiming that dishonesty is not dishonest.

Lie

A false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

Do you see "withholding information" anywhere in the definition of this word?

-- You're actually lying to yourself. You falsely claim that "withholding information" is somehow equal to false information, or "falsehood", or "untruth".