• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Killing in War - Ok or Not?

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
This is a quote from the larger outlined work from the 4th century (300-399 A.D.) :

Divine Institutes
Book VI : Of true worship

Chapter 20. Of the Senses, and Their Pleasures in the Brutes and in Man; And of Pleasures of the Eyes, and Spectacles :

"For when God forbids us to kill, He not only prohibits us from open violence, which is not even allowed by the public laws, but He warns us against the commission of those things which are esteemed lawful among men. Thus it will be neither lawful for a just man to engage in warfare, since his warfare is justice itself, nor to accuse any one of a capital charge, because it makes no difference whether you put a man to death by word, or rather by the sword, since it is the act of putting to death itself which is prohibited. Therefore, with regard to this precept of God, there ought to be no exception at all; but that it is always unlawful to put to death a man, whom God willed to be a sacred animal."

- Lucius Caecilius Firmianus Lactantius

So a further question beckons, do you think you are a sacred animal?

Just curious then....what is the stance of the Catholic Church with regard to war? It was apparent that many wars could not have taken place were it not for the churches preaching men into the battlefield on patriotic assumptions. The church sanctified war and even blessed the weapons that would be used to kill innocent women and children. How is that possible for those who professed to follow the teachings of the Christ?

In the two world wars of last century, Catholic killed Catholic and Protestant killed Protestant, when it was plainly stated by Jesus "the one who remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him. 17 In this way love has been made perfect in us, so that we may have freeness of speech in the day of judgment, because just as that one is, so are we ourselves in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts fear out, because fear restrains us. Indeed, the one who is fearful has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love, because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And we have this commandment from him, that whoever loves God must also love his brother." (1 John 4:16-21)

There is no sanction for war in the NT. Christians cannot take up carnal weapons and end the life of his fellow man without facing God's judgment. Isn't this the gist of what you quoted? Yet the Church does not follow this ideal. o_O
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
What about in self defense? Sometimes it comes down to kill or be killed.
A Christian will take a bullet for his brother, but he will never fire one. Self defence does not always involve the use of deadly force.

Being no part of the world means that we do not interfere with what the world does nor join in with its politics, agenda or lifestyle.

As was true in the first century and also in the wars of the nations since....Christians suffered for their neutral stance, but they were confident of their reward, not focusing on the perils of this life but concentrating on the one to come....the real life. We are to obey God, not men.

Jesus demonstrated how to live in the world but be no part of it. He did not advocate violence nor did he join with the zealots in trying to overthrow Rome. His disciples were no part of any of that. Neutrality is the stance of a true Christian as opposed to those who merely call themselves by that name.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Do you have a copy of such a sermon to share with us?

What sermon would that be?

Perhaps I can give you an example.....

"Father George Zabelka, a Catholic chaplain with the U.S. Air Force, served as a priest for the airmen who dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945, and gave them his blessing. Days later he counseled an airman who had flown a low-level reconnaissance flight over the city of Nagasaki shortly after the detonation of “Fat Man.” The man described how thousands of scorched, twisted bodies writhed on the ground in the final throes of death, while those still on their feet wandered aimlessly in shock—flesh seared, melted, and falling off. The crewman’s description raised a stifled cry from the depths of Zabelka’s soul: “My God, what have we done?” Over the next twenty years, he gradually came to believe that he had been terribly wrong, that he had denied the very foundations of his faith by lending moral and religious support to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Zabelka died in 1992, but his message, in this speech given on the 40th anniversary of the bombings, must never be forgotten."

Read more.....

http://www.plough.com/en/articles/2011/july/blessing-the-bombs

(If this link does not work try copying and pasting it into your browser)

The very fact that Catholics and Protestants killed their spiritual "brothers" in war with the blessing of their clergy is proof enough. They obeyed man before God.

Were sermons necessary for that then? :(
 
What sermon would that be?
You stated "churches preaching men onto the battlefield". The fact that the priest blessed those of his flock doesn't account for preaching. Amongst other things, the priest blesses candles, matches, cars, the living and the deceased. And all the while the priest in Japan would be doing the same thing, as would the one in Germany, France, or any of the nations.

The Gospel is read (preached) verbatim from approved translations but that does not constitute a sermon, per se, as for instance, the Watchtower publication in addition to the JW's Bible of choice, whatever that is at this time. There is nothing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ that preaches men onto battlefields. When Christ was shown two swords, He said, "that is enough", and reproved Peter for striking the guard with one, reminding him that those who live by the sword shall die by the sword.

If you are going to find fault with a priest for blessing, then how do you avoid condemnation from the admonition "bless, do not curse"?
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
You stated "churches preaching men onto the battlefield". The fact that the priest blessed those of his flock doesn't account for preaching.

The Catholic priest mentioned in my previous post also wrote....

"I never preached a single sermon against killing civilians to the men who were doing it. I was brainwashed! It never entered my mind to protest publicly the consequences of these massive air raids. I was told it was necessary—told openly by the military and told implicitly by my church’s leadership. (To the best of my knowledge no American cardinals or bishops were opposing these mass air raids. Silence in such matters is a stamp of approval.)"

The sin of omission is what it sounds like to me. Tacit approval is still approval.
If the clergy had done their job, no one who called themselves Christian could have gone to battle with a clear conscience. It was their job to tell those who sought spiritual guidance the truth from God's word. They failed...big time.

Amongst other things, the priest blesses candles, matches, cars, the living and the deceased. And all the while the priest in Japan would be doing the same thing, as would the one in Germany, France, or any of the nations.

Yes and why can't you see how wrong that was? Christianity is not a local or national religion...it transcends political and national barriers and recognises "brothers" no matter what nation they live in.

If the priests had told their charges this one simple fact, how many would have fought their spiritual "kin"? How do you love your brother with a weapon?

Can you give me some examples of Christ or his apostles blessing useless material objects? Can you see Jesus blessing cars or sporting events?
Where will I find candles in Christian worship...or images?

The Gospel is read (preached) verbatim from approved translations but that does not constitute a sermon, per se, as for instance, the Watchtower publication in addition to the JW's Bible of choice, whatever that is at this time. There is nothing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ that preaches men onto battlefields.

Exactly...so why did the clergy pray with the soldiers asking God for victory over the enemy and bless the bombs and guns that were going to be used to kill innocent women and children? How is that loving your enemy? :confused:

When Christ was shown two swords, He said, "that is enough", and reproved Peter for striking the guard with one, reminding him that those who live by the sword shall die by the sword.

The swords were there to fulfill a prophesy...nothing more. Jesus never advocated violence to anyone. Loving one's enemy precluded it.

If you are going to find fault with a priest for blessing, then how do you avoid condemnation from the admonition "bless, do not curse"?
Are you serious? You honestly think this pertains to blessing weapons that would be used to murder people? :eek:

You have some serious study to do. o_O
 
Last edited:
The Catholic priest mentioned in my previous post also wrote....

"I never preached a single sermon against killing civilians to the men who were doing it."
But the rules under which the priest served did not require it of him either. As an apostle and priest he preached the Gospel through the written word of the Holy Bible. What did Christ say about that? He said that even if someone were to come back from the dead, they would not listen if they listened not to the prophets. There are prescribed readings of the Gospel for every day in the Church calendar. And I might add the quote, "my grace is sufficient for thee".

The Catholic priest mentioned in my previous post also wrote....

"I was brainwashed! It never entered my mind to protest publicly the consequences of these massive air raids. I was told it was necessary—told openly by the military and told implicitly by my church’s leadership. (To the best of my knowledge no American cardinals or bishops were opposing these mass air raids. Silence in such matters is a stamp of approval.)"
It has already been shown in this thread that God delivers even His own people to war if they disobey. As such, it has been often taught that the worst sin is disobedience. The prophecy in Daniel confirms this, as after Christ would be slain, there would be war until the end. The specifics of the conflict we call World War II fits into the Daniel prophecy and what Christ said, "You shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars." As to protesting, it would have only made matters worse as the war was Heaven sent. The Fatima prophecy in 1917 A.D. during WWI given by Jesus' own Mother foretold of a worse war to follow if men would not amend their lives. It was a matter of weathering the storm. Taking sides would only have put innocent people at further risk. The Vatican was helping victims as it could in acts of charity. (There is a saying, "Actions speak louder than words.")

The sin of omission is what it sounds like to me. Tacit approval is still approval.
Sounding like and actually being so are two different things. As long as the priest did bless, that is not being tacit, even if it was only what you now call 'useless' objects. A moment ago they seemed to serve your argument well just the way they were. Notice something a little fishy?

If the clergy had done their job, no one who called themselves Christian could have gone to battle with a clear conscience.
Perhaps you haven't yet realized that the conflict/war was Heaven sent. Those men did not want to fight in that war, to burden their consciences would only have added to their problems.

It was their job to tell those who sought spiritual guidance the truth from God's word.
They did.

They failed...big time.
That is something I asked you to show us rather than merely repeating the same false accusation in a theme and variation setting.

Yes and why can't you see how wrong that was?
They bless in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. You can't do any better than that.

Christianity is not a local or national religion...it transcends political and national barriers and recognises "brothers" no matter what nation they live in.
That would be "in which they live". But as apostles, that is how we have been sent, unto the nations. Christ said that His Gospel was to be preached to all the nations, then would come the end. The fact that this has been done is a sign that the end is near.

If the priests had told their charges this one simple fact, how many would have fought their spiritual "kin"? How do you love your brother with a weapon?
The parable of the Sower covers that nicely. The best thing the priests could have done was to pray for them. As Christ taught us not to pray on street corners as hypocrites, you would not read nor hear of that. Ever think of that?

Can you give me some examples of Christ or his apostles blessing (useless) material objects?
I mentioned this earlier. You've upped your ante to useless in order to bolster your erroneous claim. Christ took the bread and the cup, blessing it. The loaves and fishes, too. The same thing is done at every Sacrifice of the Holy Mass by the priest.

Can you see Jesus blessing cars or sporting events?
If such things are so useless to you now, why can't you see Him blessing them for what they are anyway? If Christ said that He could have diverted His very crucifixion, how is it you think that He can't do away with cars and sporting events? He said, "The heavens and earth shall pass away, but my words will not pass away."

Where will I find candles in Christian worship...or images?
You've been around electric lighting forgetting that when the early church met to hear the Gospel preached there were candles to see, and icons to remind them of saints who had departed, just like people tweet and twitter with all kinds of glitter. Rituals also used such things in special ways with symbolism attached to the Gospel, i.e., the Troika, a three stemmed candle representing the Trinity.

Exactly...so why did the clergy pray with the soldiers asking God for victory over the enemy and bless the bombs and guns that were going to used to kill innocent women and children? How is that loving your enemy?
And who is the enemy?
The swords were there to fulfill a prophesy...nothing more. Jesus never advocated violence to anyone. Loving one's enemy precluded it.
That would be "prophecy". "Prophesy" is the verb form. Jesus said that of His healing on an occasion, that it was to show the work of God. But the teaching of the two swords and saying, "That is enough", was to show the importance of their mission, as previously He had sent them without anything, in comparison.

Are you serious?
Yes.

You honestly think this pertains to blessing weapons that would be used to murder people?
No. It pertains to blessing, and not cursing.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
It's an acceptable interpretation of it. I would still need to see the defining details..."and if one calls your bluff, do not use thy sword "
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
It's an acceptable interpretation of it. I would still need to see the defining details..."and if one calls your bluff, do not use thy sword "

Refer to Jesus' capture/surrender, in the garden of Gethsemane.

It's the only acceptable interpretation there is.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
How does this all pan out in real life?

Some of us have killed and had regret for the situation, circumstances, horror...but without additional remorse that we wronged our God/s or religion. It's a pretty major factor in some people's lives. Effecting the length, quality, and overall path of life.
 
Top