Karma - Is it a Universal or Dharmic principle?

[Vinayaka]

In the larger picture of reality, karma is irrelevant.

I concur, and I didn't start the topic.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I have not read the whole thread. In my opinion, the principle of karma is universal. Our mental and physical choices and actions determine the outcome. The fact that you wrote the OP has led to certain results. Whether the results are beneficial or not you can only tell. To start with, why you made the OP must have had a reason. Katha Upanshad has this to say regarding the choices that we make:

”There are two paths—one is the ‘beneficial’ and the other is the ‘pleasant’. These two lead humans to very different ends. The pleasant is enjoyable in the beginning, but it ends in pain. The ignorant are snared to the pleasant and perish. But the wise are not deceived by its attractions, choose the beneficial, and finally attain happiness.”
​

This, in general, is the teaching of all religions. So, I aver that the principle of karma is universal but its understanding and its applications vary across religions. The understanding is most developed in Hinduism and Buddhism, the two religions that teach continuity of the living soul/mind stream, until liberation (moksha or nirvana).

I agree that the principle of karma is universal but clearly the word is unique to the Dharmic Faiths. It's useful to hear from others of differing faith traditions to appreciate how the concept is understood. We've explored how its connected with reincarnation. Liberation from the cycle of birth and death through moksha and nirvana appears to be the goal in Hinduism and Buddhism though these concepts can differ significantly between the two religions.

In regards the karma I might have generated for myself in starting the OP, the obvious answer is having a period of a few days to reflect and meditate on an important spiritual principle as I go about my daily routine.

Thanks for your post. Your input is always appreciated.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Very likely. The sociopath example is interesting, because what we consider sociopath is tied to the bodily form. The soul might choose that form for its own purposes. But this is conjecture on my part, picked up from gleanings here and there. I don't know if there are any "official" writings on it.

Another thought is why someone would choose to reincarnate as a sociopath? They would be deliberately accumulating bad karma. It doesn't sound like a wise decision but then again sociopaths are not renown for their wisdom. Perhaps there is a subgroup who don't get to come back as a human at all...

 

[Jainarayan]

Another thought is why someone would choose to reincarnate as a sociopath? They would deliberately accumulating bad karma. It doesn't sound like a wise decision but then again sociopaths are not renown for their wisdom. Perhaps there is a subgroup who don't get to come back as a human at all...

All true. In the Bhagavad Gita Sri Krishna mentions there are those who just don’t learn so they keep falling life to life. This is a Vaishnava POV since the Gita is a Vaishnava work. I don’t know the Shaiva or Shakta takes on it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It's cause and effect , action and reaction.

It's certainly not some screwy cosmic scorecard that tallies whenever you've been naughty or nice that requires you to pay it off or bask in its reward. Lol.

You appear to have a non-theistic version of Buddhism without literal reincarnation like the Hindus and Tibetan Buddhists. Is that correct? I'm hearing from at least one Hindu that karma is inseparable from reincarnation.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You appear to have a non-theistic version of Buddhism without literal reincarnation like the Hindus and Tibetan Buddhists. Is that correct? I'm hearing from at least one Hindu that karma is inseparable from reincarnation.

I don't practice Tibetan Buddhism. Just Zen practice straight up with no chaser.

Everything is empty which includes one's view of reincarnation and rebirth, which is more of an individual inclination brought about by it's adherents including my own take on rebirth as I will no longer need any of the teachings once life ends for me.

All summed up nicely by the Heart Sutra.

 

[osgart]

Life doesnt come with a force that rewards or punishes.

There are life laws that matter to the utmost though. The heart that takes to virtue will be trustworthy, and virtues are the pillars of civilization. Where there is honesty there also is quality of life.

Prosperity, and security build the peace. If there were no prosperity and security, no laws of life to abide in how fast would humanity deteriorate into extinction?

A good person getting what they deserve benefits everybody.

Its the force that doesnt exist, but exists only in the hearts of willing people.

At the bottom rock is prosperity and security, and as you climb the mountain, the greatest treasure is virtue itself.

If ever there were a nirvana or heaven, it would be built upon virtues. I wish such a place existed.

 

[CG Didymus]

You appear to have a non-theistic version of Buddhism without literal reincarnation like the Hindus and Tibetan Buddhists. Is that correct? I'm hearing from at least one Hindu that karma is inseparable from reincarnation.

Hey Adrian, I've got some questions for you. Without reincarnation and being born into a life with already some bad karma from a previous life, what is the explanation for children that suffer and die very young? They haven't lived long enough to do very many good or bad things. Also, if Baha'is say that it is in this life on Earth where the most can be done to develop the spiritual qualities for the next life, what happens to those kids in the spiritual world? And, if they get either a high or low position how is that fair? If a high one, how is that fair to those who live long and suffered. If low, how is that fair to the kids who never had a chance to develop any spiritual qualities?

Now for some Christian questions for you. Catholics and maybe some other Christians believe that there is an inherited Original Sin from Adam and Eve. Then they have all their Sacraments to get a person into a place where they are good enough to get into heaven. Or, if they only have minor infractions, they can pay them off by spending some time in Purgatory, then going to heaven.

The Protestants I know say that people have a sin nature and can't save themselves... that only through Jesus' sacrifice can they get right with God. But then, they have to deal with those kids that die before they can accept Jesus. So some of them believe that there is an "age of accountability" where children get a free pass. But adults don't get into heaven without accepting Jesus. But then, their whole sin debt is paid off and gone. Supposedly, those Christians that have served the Lord will get rewards. And those that haven't accepted Jesus, regardless how good or bad they've been, go to hell fire.

How do you tie in Karma with the beliefs of those two types of Christians? Thanks.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hey Adrian, I've got some questions for you. Without reincarnation and being born into a life with already some bad karma from a previous life, what is the explanation for children that suffer and die very young? They haven't lived long enough to do very many good or bad things. Also, if Baha'is say that it is in this life on Earth where the most can be done to develop the spiritual qualities for the next life, what happens to those kids in the spiritual world? And, if they get either a high or low position how is that fair? If a high one, how is that fair to those who live long and suffered. If low, how is that fair to the kids who never had a chance to develop any spiritual qualities?

Hey CG, how goes it?

Children and young ones who suffer and die early are recompensed in the next world.

Abdu'l-Baha explanations here I trust will answer your questions.

As to the subject of babes and infants and weak ones who are afflicted by the hands of oppressors: This contains great wisdom and this subject is of paramount importance. In brief, for those souls there is a recompense in another world and many details are connected with this matter. For those souls that suffering is the greatest mercy of God. Verily that mercy of the Lord is far better and preferable to all the comfort of this world and the growth and development of this place of mortality. If it be the will of God, when thou shalt be present this will be explained in detail by word of mouth.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas, Pages 335-338

O ye two patient souls! Your letter was received. The death of that beloved youth and his separation from you have caused the utmost sorrow and grief; for he winged his flight in the flower of his age and the bloom of his youth to the heavenly nest. But he hath been freed from this sorrow-stricken shelter and hath turned his face toward the everlasting nest of the Kingdom, and, being delivered from a dark and narrow world, hath hastened to the sanctified realm of light; therein lieth the consolation of our hearts.

The inscrutable divine wisdom underlieth such heart-rending occurrences. It is as if a kind gardener transferreth a fresh and tender shrub from a confined place to a wide open area. This transfer is not the cause of the withering, the lessening or the destruction of that shrub; nay, on the contrary, it maketh it to grow and thrive, acquire freshness and delicacy, become green and bear fruit. This hidden secret is well known to the gardener, but those souls who are unaware of this bounty suppose that the gardener, in his anger and wrath, hath uprooted the shrub. Yet to those who are aware, this concealed fact is manifest, and this predestined decree is considered a bounty. Do not feel grieved or disconsolate, therefore, at the ascension of that bird of faithfulness; nay, under all circumstances pray for that youth, supplicating for him forgiveness and the elevation of his station.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 199-200

Now for some Christian questions for you. Catholics and maybe some other Christians believe that there is an inherited Original Sin from Adam and Eve. Then they have all their Sacraments to get a person into a place where they are good enough to get into heaven. Or, if they only have minor infractions, they can pay them off by spending some time in Purgatory, then going to heaven.

Its true Catholics believe that.

The Protestants I know say that people have a sin nature and can't save themselves... that only through Jesus' sacrifice can they get right with God. But then, they have to deal with those kids that die before they can accept Jesus. So some of them believe that there is an "age of accountability" where children get a free pass. But adults don't get into heaven without accepting Jesus. But then, their whole sin debt is paid off and gone. Supposedly, those Christians that have served the Lord will get rewards. And those that haven't accepted Jesus, regardless how good or bad they've been, go to hell fire.

This would certainly reflect the believes of some Protestants.

How do you tie in Karma with the beliefs of those two types of Christians? Thanks.

Karma put simply is the law of cause and effect. In both the Catholic and Protestant view there are aspects of reward and punishment in the next work that takes into account a person's individual circumstances (their age), their faith, and their deeds. Baptism, communion and confession have been necessary for Catholics to overcome their inherited sin through the fall of Adam whereas the Protestants simply require faith in Jesus. Therefore I see no conflict between the law of karma and Christian theology whether Catholic and Protestant.

The law of karma is very universal and easily applied to most theologies. A strict Hindu version where karma is inextricably linked to reincarnation can not be easily reconciled to other faiths if at all.

 

[Vinayaka]

The law of karma is very universal and easily applied to most theologies. A strict Hindu version where karma is inextricably linked to reincarnation can not be easily reconciled to other faiths if at all.

Can you point me to a paper or reference to a non-dharmic source where they refer to it their concept, whatever it is, as karma?

In the point-counterpoint jointly done here (#4 in particular) Basics of Hinduism they seem to be two very different concepts.

I believe that this entire argument that karma can be applied to most philosophies is another Baha'i attempt at finding common ground when, in reality, there is none. You've gone ahead and changed the definition of karma to suit this agenda. You change key concepts of many faiths to make it seem like all faiths essentially say the same thing. They don't. It's misrepresentation of all the faiths that came before.

 

[CG Didymus]

Can you point me to a paper or reference to a non-dharmic source where they refer to it their concept, whatever it is, as karma?

In the point-counterpoint jointly done here (#4 in particular) Basics of Hinduism they seem to be two very different concepts.

I believe that this entire argument that karma can be applied to most philosophies is another Baha'i attempt at finding common ground when, in reality, there is none. You've gone ahead and changed the definition of karma to suit this agenda. You change key concepts of many faiths to make it seem like all faiths essentially say the same thing. They don't. It's misrepresentation of all the faiths that came before.

Hmmm? Would it be like calling a home run the same as a touch down or a goal? They all are talking about the same thing, ways of scoring points. But look at all the major sports in general. They all are so similar. Different uniforms, different rules, different ways to score points, but in the end they are all games.

Therefore, all religions are one and karma is universal? In a very, very general way, with a little redefining throw in.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmmm? Would it be like calling a home run the same as a touch down or a goal? They all are talking about the same thing, ways of scoring points. But look at all the major sports in general. They all are so similar. Different uniforms, different rules, different ways to score points, but in the end they are all games.

Therefore, all religions are one and karma is universal? In a very, very general way, with a little redefining throw in.

Look back at life and the process of learning about truths in this world. Do you unlearn what was previously taught and then replace it with a different aspect, or do you build on what was previously taught?

Regards Tony

 

[ajay0]

Here are Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev's articles explaining Karma....

(Jaggi Vasudev is an enlightened master and founder of Isha Foundation.)

https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/wisdom/article/what-is-karma

https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/wisdom/article/karma-memory-of-life

https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/wisdom/sadhguru-spot/how-to-become-free-from-karma

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You change key concepts of many faiths to make it seem like all faiths essentially say the same thing. They don't. It's misrepresentation of all the faiths that came before.

I would see that the essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds. I would suggest that is a proven fact to which we can not deny and is at the core of all true practices of Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I would see that the essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds. I would suggest that is a proven fact to which we can not deny and is at the core of all true practices of Faith.

Regards Tony

How about religions that have an abundance of misdeeds?

 

[Vinayaka]

Hmmm? Would it be like calling a home run the same as a touch down or a goal? They all are talking about the same thing, ways of scoring points. But look at all the major sports in general. They all are so similar. Different uniforms, different rules, different ways to score points, but in the end they are all games.

Therefore, all religions are one and karma is universal? In a very, very general way, with a little redefining throw in.

I looked at various sites and the definitions of karma. The term 'Hindu' was always there. You can call it karma if you want to but the heaven/hell reward/punishment model simply isn't karma. In your analogy, a hockey puck isn't a football isn't a tennis ball. But yes, a goal is a goal is a goal.

But it's all fine. 99% of people probably do know the origins and definition. A few people on the internet in a minor faith don't make much difference.

 

[CG Didymus]

Look back at life and the process of learning about truths in this world. Do you unlearn what was previously taught and then replace it with a different aspect, or do you build on what was previously taught?

Regards Tony

So if I was a typical born-again Christian, I would believe Jesus is God and the Devil is the "god" of this world. My faith and belief in Jesus has saved me from being guilty before God of my sins. Without Jesus, no matter how many or how few sins, I'd be going to hell. I'd believe Jesus rose bodily from the dead and probably have a very literal view of the things said in the Bible. Should I unlearn those things or will I be able to "build" upon them to believe in a different religions, like let's say the Baha'i Faith?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How about religions that have an abundance of misdeeds?

Then they that practiced this, did not have the essence of faith.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So if I was a typical born-again Christian, I would believe Jesus is God and the Devil is the "god" of this world. My faith and belief in Jesus has saved me from being guilty before God of my sins. Without Jesus, no matter how many or how few sins, I'd be going to hell. I'd believe Jesus rose bodily from the dead and probably have a very literal view of the things said in the Bible. Should I unlearn those things or will I be able to "build" upon them to believe in a different religions, like let's say the Baha'i Faith?

Look at life, some students just do not get it right all the time. It did not mean the original lesson was wrong.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I looked at various sites and the definitions of karma. The term 'Hindu' was always there. You can call it karma if you want to but the heaven/hell reward/punishment model simply isn't karma. In your analogy, a hockey puck isn't a football isn't a tennis ball. But yes, a goal is a goal is a goal.

But it's all fine. 99% of people probably do know the origins and definition. A few people on the internet in a minor faith don't make much difference.

So then yes, everything is one. A tennis ball, a hockey puck or some oblong long leather ball are almost all the same. Therefore, anything close... is close enough. If any religion says anything about there being a reward for doing good and a punishment for doing bad, then that's close enough.

Hmmm? I wonder if that works for reincarnation too? If a religion says that there are lives other than this one, then all religions have a concept of reincarnation. So that's universal too. You need to see with your other eye. Or get yourself a pair of rosy Baha'i sunglasses that eliminates contradictions and differing beliefs between the different religions.

But, my point to the Baha'is, has always been that... if they are right, then all other religions as practiced today are wrong. Of course, that doesn't bother them. They say "yes" they all got corrupted by following traditions of men and misinterpreting their own Scriptures. So no matter what anyone thinks karma is, it is whatever Baha'i say it is. So why not open the thread by saying, "This is what the Baha'is say karma is. Let us show you how you're wrong."

But Adrian doesn't do that. And, I don't know exactly why, but he really sounds like he's here to learn about the beliefs of other people's religions. But in the end, it doesn't matter what minor religions believe or major religions. It is what Baha'u'llah has said that is the new truth.

Anyway, I'm going back to watching the hockey game with that oblong leather puck. I think Kansas City must have had some bad karma from a previous game, because the other guys blocked one of their punts and made a basket. And yes, since all sports are one, I can come up with an interpretation that makes all that the absolute truth. Yes, a puck is similar to a ball in other sports, therefore it is the same as a football. Football and hockey are sports. All sports are one, so hockey is football. What team doesn't have some bad karma. Bad karma leads to punishments. One of the worst punishments is to have a kick blocked. Scoring a touchdown is like making a basket in basketball, so the opponents made a basket and scored 6 points.