Karma - Is it a Universal or Dharmic principle?

[Dawnofhope]

Can you point me to a paper or reference to a non-dharmic source where they refer to it their concept, whatever it is, as karma?

In the point-counterpoint jointly done here (#4 in particular) Basics of Hinduism they seem to be two very different concepts.

I believe that this entire argument that karma can be applied to most philosophies is another Baha'i attempt at finding common ground when, in reality, there is none. You've gone ahead and changed the definition of karma to suit this agenda. You change key concepts of many faiths to make it seem like all faiths essentially say the same thing. They don't. It's misrepresentation of all the faiths that came before.

Hinduism and Buddhism while having many similarities also have significant differences as reflected in beliefs regarding both karma and reincarnation.

Buddhism is based on the teachings of Gautama Buddha and they have a recognised body of writings that reflect the Teachings of the Buddha and early Buddhist monks.

Practically all Buddhists believe in the concept of karma whereas only some Buddhists believe reincarnation to mean transmigration of souls. Many Buddhists believe in rebirth rather than reincarnation that is not the same as transmigration of souls. Part of the difference concerns the concept of the soul.

Difference between Hindu & Buddhist Idea of Reincarnation | Difference Between | Difference between Hindu & Buddhist Idea of Reincarnation

According to Takashi Tsuji karma 'is a Sanskrit word from the root "Kri" to do or to make and simply means "action." It operates in the universe as the continuous chain reaction of cause and effect. It is not only confined to causation in the physical sense but also it has moral implications. "A good cause, a good effect; a bad cause a bad effect" is a common saying. In this sense karma is a moral law.'

That sounds very universal to me.

A Basic Buddhism Guide: On Reincarnation

 

[Vinayaka]

Anyway, I'm going back to watching the hockey game with that oblong leather puck. I think Kansas City must have had some bad karma from a previous game, because the other guys blocked one of their punts and made a basket. And yes, since all sports are one, I can come up with an interpretation that makes all that the absolute truth. Yes, a puck is similar to a ball in other sports, therefore it is the same as a football. Football and hockey are sports. All sports are one, so hockey is football. What team doesn't have some bad karma. Bad karma leads to punishments. One of the worst punishments is to have a kick blocked. Scoring a touchdown is like making a basket in basketball, so the opponents made a basket and scored 6 points.

I too am watching that game. Luck has had bad luck. (karma) For Adrian ... The quarterback's (main position in American football) last name on one team is Luck.

 

[Vinayaka]

Hinduism and Buddhism while having many similarities also have significant differences as reflected in beliefs regarding both karma and reincarnation.

Buddhism is based on the teachings of Gautama Buddha and they have a recognised body of writings that reflect the Teachings of the Buddha and early Buddhist monks.

Practically all Buddhists believe in the concept of karma whereas only some Buddhists believe reincarnation to mean transmigration of souls. Many Buddhists believe in rebirth rather than reincarnation that is not the same as transmigration of souls. Part of the difference concerns the concept of the soul.

Difference between Hindu & Buddhist Idea of Reincarnation | Difference Between | Difference between Hindu & Buddhist Idea of Reincarnation

According to Takashi Tsuji karma 'is a Sanskrit word from the root "Kri" to do or to make and simply means "action." It operates in the universe as the continuous chain reaction of cause and effect. It is not only confined to causation in the physical sense but also it has moral implications. "A good cause, a good effect; a bad cause a bad effect" is a common saying. In this sense karma is a moral law.'

That sounds very universal to me.

A Basic Buddhism Guide: On Reincarnation

Yes, I understand that. The term 'karma' is used in both Hinduism and Buddhism. They are both dharmic religions. I had asked you to supply me with a non-dharmic statement about agreeing with karma. Show me a Christian or Islamic paper that references it as a belief of theirs. In Moomen's paper on Baha'i and Hinduism, he references it, but he mangles the concept completely.

This is what Momen says:
Karma (the way of works) This refers to a constant control over all of one's actions so that one is always acting in accord with Dharma. This involves not only the duties of one's caste but also the wider moral obligations to be found in the Sadharama Dharma.

He is talking here about dharma, not karma. Dharma is control.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, I understand that. The term 'karma' is used in both Hinduism and Buddhism. They are both dharmic religions. I had asked you to supply me with a non-dharmic statement about agreeing with karma. Show me a Christian or Islamic paper that references it as a belief of theirs. In Moomen's paper on Baha'i and Hinduism, he references it, but he mangles the concept completely.

This is what Momen says:
Karma (the way of works) This refers to a constant control over all of one's actions so that one is always acting in accord with Dharma. This involves not only the duties of one's caste but also the wider moral obligations to be found in the Sadharama Dharma.

He is talking here about dharma, not karma. Dharma is control.

I prefer;
1/ To read the sacred writings of Hinduism and Buddhism
2/ To hear from Hindus and Buddhists what they have to say about their religion
3/ Read what scholars say.

For that reason I haven't been too interested in Moojen Momen's book. His book has no more weight than what any other Baha'i might say.

Baha'u'llah teaches that we should see with our own eyes, not through the eyes of others, should know of our own knowledge, not the knowledge of our neighbour,

In regards Christainity;

15 Bible Verses about Karma - Wise Scripture Quotes

It is useful to look at the biblical verses themselves.

The Catholics after the second Vatican Council in the early 1960s have made radical steps to become much more inclusive of other faiths.

https://www.catholicjournal.us/2014/07/25/christians-karma/

This article appears useful in that it correctly makes a distinction between karma and reincarnation.

Muslims like Baha'is acknowledge the great religious founders of the past. For some Muslim scholars that extends to both Buddha and Krishna. However many Muslims will take the approach of the evangelical Christians by linking karma and reincarnation and then reject both.

 

[Vinayaka]

I prefer;
1/ To read the sacred writings of Hinduism and Buddhism
2/ To hear from Hindus and Buddhists what they have to say about their religion
3/ Read what scholars say.

For that reason I haven't been too interested in Moojen Momen's book. His book has no more weight than what any other Baha'i might say.

Baha'u'llah teaches that we should see with our own eyes, not through the eyes of others, should know of our own knowledge, not the knowledge of our neighbour,

In regards Christainity;

15 Bible Verses about Karma - Wise Scripture Quotes

It is useful to look at the biblical verses themselves.

The Catholics after the second Vatican Council in the early 1960s have made radical steps to become much more inclusive of other faiths.

https://www.catholicjournal.us/2014/07/25/christians-karma/

This article appears useful in that it correctly makes a distinction between karma and reincarnation.

Muslims like Baha'is acknowledge the great religious founders of the past. For some Muslim scholars that extends to both Buddha and Krishna. However many Muslims will take the approach of the evangelical Christians by linking karma and reincarnation and then reject both.

Yes, as suspected, they just switch it to the reward/punishment model of a single lifetime. Good behaviour equals heaven, bad behaviour equals hell. Which it isn't. But that's all fine. It's not the first time dharmic concepts get mangled by western faiths. The problem is the Abrahamic coloured glasses can't have it any other way.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, as suspected, they just switch it to the reward/punishment model, which it isn't. But that's all fine. It's not the first time dharmic concepts get mangled

Have you not said that many of these concepts and teachings vary widly within dharmic faiths as well?

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, as suspected, they just switch it to the reward/punishment model of a single lifetime. Good behaviour equals heaven, bad behaviour equals hell. Which it isn't. But that's all fine. It's not the first time dharmic concepts get mangled by western faiths. The problem is the Abrahamic coloured glasses can't have it any other way.

The language of course is different with reward/punishment and heaven/hell. Christianity emerged from Judaism so the explanations Jesus provided to His Jewish audience two thousand years ago sound very different to the explanations the Buddha provided 2,500 years ago in India to His predominantly Hindu audiences. Their concepts could be understood superficially or in a more profound manner. They are consequences both positive and negative that result from our actions both in this world and the next. Jesus emphasises God for obvious reasons whereas Buddha for reasons of wisdom often appears neutral on theistic matters. Both Jesus and Buddha simply taught what was needed within their culture using language and concepts readily understood by their peoples. It is little wonder their Teachings appear so different.

 

[Vinayaka]

Have you not said that many of these concepts and teachings vary widly within dharmic faiths as well?

Regards Tony

Not that I can remember on these two central concepts. Karma and reincarnation are pretty core, and I would venture a high percentage of Hindus believe in those two, and that they're intricately connected. Hinduism itself has huge variety on other concepts though. It's a diverse planet, thank goodness.

 

[Vinayaka]

The language of course is different with reward/punishment and heaven/hell. Christianity emerged from Judaism so the explanations Jesus provided to His Jewish audience two thousand years ago sound very different to the explanations the Buddha provided 2,500 years ago in India to His predominantly Hindu audiences. Their concepts could be understood superficially or in a more profound manner. They are consequences both positive and negative that result from our actions both in this world and the next. Jesus emphasises God for obvious reasons whereas Buddha for reasons of wisdom often appears neutral on theistic matters. Both Jesus and Buddha simply taught what was needed within their culture using language and concepts readily understood by their peoples. It is little wonder their Teachings appear so different.

How do Abrahamics explain people of no action, like permanently mentally disabled handicapped folks? How do their actions get them to heaven or hell?

 

[CG Didymus]

Look at life, some students just do not get it right all the time. It did not mean the original lesson was wrong.

Regards Tony

That elusive "original" lesson. Where is it and what was it? Just some basics... There is only one God? Then Baha'is believe that every religion that has multiple gods made those gods up? Then, tying in this thread, religions that believe people reincarnate multiple times made that up? But the karma part of their beliefs is true and universal? So what else is true from Hinduism?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not that I can remember on these two central concepts. Karma and reincarnation are pretty core, and I would venture a high percentage of Hindus believe in those two, and that they're intricately connected. Hinduism itself has huge variety on other concepts though. It's a diverse planet, thank goodness.

How would you rate this summary;

Karma - Wikipedia

What I have read shows quite a divergence of thoughts, it quotes six schools of thought in Hinduisim and says there are many more.

Some of the quotes, read in the way I understand God and Faith are very compatible.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I too am watching that game. Luck has had bad luck. (karma) For Adrian ... The quarterback's (main position in American football) last name on one team is Luck.

But if Luck, the player, was a Christian, would he still have to deal with his bad karma, or would Jesus take it away? I wonder what Baha'is do with their bad karma?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That elusive "original" lesson. Where is it and what was it? Just some basics... There is only one God? Then Baha'is believe that every religion that has multiple gods made those gods up? Then, tying in this thread, religions that believe people reincarnate multiple times made that up? But the karma part of their beliefs is true and universal? So what else is true from Hinduism?

I have previously offered that the Baha'i concept of One God is in the knowledge that God has many Names and has revealed many Faiths, in many ways, through many people.

This explanation alone answers the question you have asked. Baha'u'llah has said one of the greatest veils is attachment to the world of names.

Of course this also has many tangents with a myriad of explanations.

Christ made it easy. The flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that gives life. Look for that Spirit and it permeates all things.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, as suspected, they just switch it to the reward/punishment model of a single lifetime. Good behaviour equals heaven, bad behaviour equals hell. Which it isn't. But that's all fine. It's not the first time dharmic concepts get mangled by western faiths. The problem is the Abrahamic coloured glasses can't have it any other way.

Good behavior doesn't equal heaven in Protestant Christianity. They believe that people can't be good enough to earn their way into heaven. And so, they say, Jesus had to pay the penalty for the sins of all people. Then, it is offered as a free gift to those that believe in Jesus. Or something like that.

But what do Baha'is do? If a person's good is against their bad, then that goes against what Christians teach as true. So again, they have so many differences in religions and beliefs to try and reconcile. And why? To prove that one thing, Karma, is common to all religions? While, at the same time, reject the beliefs they can't reconcile?

 

[Vinayaka]

How would you rate this summary;

Karma - Wikipedia

What I have read shows quite a divergence of thoughts, it quotes six schools of thought in Hinduisim and says there are many more.

Some of the quotes, read in the way I understand God and Faith are very compatible.

Regards Tony

Looks fairly good, although I didn't read the whole thing. For Baha'i everything is 'compatible' even when its not. That's hardly surprising.

 

[Vinayaka]

That elusive "original" lesson. Where is it and what was it? Just some basics... There is only one God? Then Baha'is believe that every religion that has multiple gods made those gods up? Then, tying in this thread, religions that believe people reincarnate multiple times made that up? But the karma part of their beliefs is true and universal? So what else is true from Hinduism?

LOL, I'd hate to be a Baha'i, just for your questioning. But ... "there will be an answer, let it be, let it be'

 

[Vinayaka]

I have previously offered that the Baha'i concept of One God is in the knowledge that God has many Names and has revealed many Faiths, in many ways, through many people.

I don't believe there is just one God. Are we still compatible? Atheists don't believe in God, period. Are you compatible with that? Are atheists and theists really the same thing?

 

[CG Didymus]

I have previously offered that the Baha'i concept of One God is in the knowledge that God has many Names and has revealed many Faiths, in many ways, through many people.

This explanation alone answers the question you have asked. Baha'u'llah has said one of the greatest veils is attachment to the world of names.

Of course this also has many tangents with a myriad of explanations.

Christ made it easy. The flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that gives life. Look for that Spirit and it permeates all things.

Regards Tony

So Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are different names of the One God? And the same with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?

 

[Vinayaka]

But if Luck, the player, was a Christian, would he still have to deal with his bad karma, or would Jesus take it away? I wonder what Baha'is do with their bad karma?

I wonder what sanchita karma there is to be born a Baha'i?

 

[CG Didymus]

LOL, I'd hate to be a Baha'i, just for your questioning. But ... "there will be an answer, let it be, let it be'

If we're going to quote Beatles songs, how about "Instant Karma"? Or, was that a John Lennon song?